The Gospel of Grace:

[haz]

Dear Haz,
I have witnessed nothing but Christ's behavior in Episkopos, as well as truth. The same in Dragonfly and Axehead. As opposed to others here, they are obviously led by the Spirit of Christ with no works of their own manifest. That is why I recognized them immediately. Episkopos is kind, nice, he is intelligent and filled with the Holy Spirit. So are the other two. Not so with many of whom you appear to run with, your salvation is very iffy because of such wickedness toward a Son of God and ignorance of scriptures. It is definetly "goat" behavior. I bear witness in the Holy Spirit. A word to the wise.
With those who falsely accuse Episkopos (or me), such as YOUR statement right here, I see only the works of the devil in speaking great swelling vain words of self importance by slamming men much wiser and more holy than yourselves. Word to the wise.
I haven't seen you speak truth once when you contend with Episkopos, nor have I seen one shred of Godliness with you or them who contend against the Word of God as they delivered it to you.
I bear witness with the Holy Spirit. You better get your act together.
Word to the wise in hope.

If you and veteran and bro dave and certain others here can't deal with the scriptures it is your knee-jerk reaction to crucify the message bringer, just like the wicked did Christ. So, I wanted to know how this website might provide to click on an "ignore" button because of the arrogant serpent biting of the devil's minions infesting this website. I'm just not used to such satanic behavior from others. You need to learn how to listen to the Holy Spirit and lay your hand on your mouth when one of them speaks. For they have an understanding that is way beyond anything you spew forth. That is all.

Whitestone

Hi whitestone.

Thanks for your amusing (although extremely biased) description of Episkopos. Others on this forum gave honest descriptions of him though and really honesty is better than ignoring facts. One Mod here even described Epi as an 'arrogant so and so' which is an accurate description as opposed to yours. But you did make me smile with your description though .

Sadly, the likes of you and your friend Epi have no understanding of scriptures. You try to deceive believers here with your gospel of works being proof that someone abides in Christ. When we confront your false gospel here with the true gospel, you describe us as evildoers (where have we heard this before?). But this is often the case where those born after the flesh persecute those born after the Spirit.

You oppose yourself and others here with your doctrine of works. This has been confronted here by various bloggers in the hope that you may eventually hear and God will give you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

Trekson,

We all agree that "our attempts at righteousness account for nothing", but the minute we are saved, Jesus begins leading us in His way and (which is away from our SELF). The only thing that accounts for anything is that we do what He tells us to do by His Spirit.

Do you agree or do you think what He tells you to do are just suggestions?

Axehead

Hi Axehead,

And what do we do that pleases God?

1John 3;23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

And love forgives 7x70.

But the gospel of works we hear being offered by you and your friends is about condemnation/death if one does not have a perfect lifestyle/behavior (just like we saw under the law of sin and death).

 

[brother dave]

Hi whitestone,

You conveniently ignore the confrontational style of those on your side of the fence (especially your friend Episkopos) whilst you call similarly confrontational opponents 'vile and disgusting'. Your prejudice and inappropriate criticism will not help your standing here and will stifle discussion even further.



Hi brother dave,

Have you noticed that the works crowd here only see themselves sanctified if there is physical proof in having a perfect lifestyle/behavior?
I guess that means the thief on the cross who believed on Jesus, calling him 'Lord', was not sanctified.

But Heb 10:10 says:
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Psa 94:4

How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves?
Psa 94:5

They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflict thine heritage.

YES! they seem to really love themselves? and seem to hate what He loves? it really sounds like another Jesus? a different one!
for our Jesus came to save that which is lost!
theirs seems to want to lose that which is saved?
our Jesus came not to condemn but to give life in abundace!
theirs only condemns and brings seperation from the Father?
our Jesus has a easy yoke and light burden!
theirs brings all men into a state of fear and the yoke of law?
NO BROTHER WE GOT THE RIGHT ONE! JESUS CHRIST, THE SAME YESTERDAY,TODAY AND TOMORROW

 

[haz]

Hi brother dave,

I note you were wondering if Epi's blog name (Episkopos) was his 'street name'.
Episkopos means 'overseer' or 'Bishop'.

Epi claims that he has been 'vetted' (appraised) by God for this position as an overseer over the church.

Unfortunately his gospel of works disproves this claim.

 

[brother dave]

Hi brother dave,

I note you were wondering if Epi's blog name (Episkopos) was his 'street name'.
Episkopos means 'overseer' or 'Bishop'.

Epi claims that he has been 'vetted' (appraised) by God for this position as an overseer over the church.

Unfortunately his gospel of works disproves this claim.

yea! it makes sense that one so full of pride and self-rightousness, would give himself a title! glad he didnt decide to be an apostle! i am convinced that he would appoint himself to even higher office if he could find a few more like axehead,dragonfly,and whitestone to proclaim his great holiness!

and the reason street thugs give theselves street names is of course to help cover there crimes! and also to seperate themselves from their own conscience? a little easier to look in the mirror when you destroy others faith!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Axehead, Your Q: "Do you agree or do you think what He tells you to do are just suggestions?"

I don't know if you're trying to be snarky or what but in case this is an honest question, I'll answer. No one, upon salvation, takes their first steps in christianity and never sins again. Christianity is a journey, a road, a path, a way, however you want to describe it and at the end of our lifetime we will still not have acheived perfection, but hopefully, we'll be closer than we started. People take that journey at different levels, speeds. All of us, upon salvation, are so messed up with self that it takes time to learn the christian way.

We may start out pure, but if we gave up hope every time we failed, we would be in sorry shape but thankfully, God is merciful to us sinners. The bible tells us that if we "say we do not sin, then we are liars" (paraphrased). God's forgiveness is so perfect that He tells us in Ps. 103:12 - "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." When we receive forgiveness so perfect even if it's for the thousandth time for the same offense, it's as if it were the first time because God doesn't remember the other 999 times. Why would Jesus teach this, if His Father wasn't capable of more. Matt. 18:21-22 - "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [sup]22 [/sup]Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

Now is this limiting us to 490 times? Of course not, it's Christ way of saying as oft as your brother needs it forgive and that same grace is offered to us when we fail. It's not a matter of not heeding His teachings, it's a matter of being spiritually mature enough to learn how to do that. It's been my observation on this board, that the more one proclaims their holiness and lack of sinning, continually commit a sin of omission by not being loving.

One cannot profess to have an "edge" on spirituality and then fail to show love towards another brother or sister just because they have a doctrinal disagreement. That's the perfect example of Paul's warning for us to "not think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think."

If Christ taught that "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [sup]22 [/sup]But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matt. 5:21-22) and again in 1 John 2:9-11 - "[sup] [/sup]He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[sup]10 [/sup]He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[sup]11 [/sup]But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."

According to these verses there is a lot of sinning going on in here and people need to learn to take a breath, count to three and chillax before they write a "fiery" response. We never know who is "listening" and honestly, as a christian, I'm kinda embarrassed by what I see in here from time to time.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead, Your Q: "Do you agree or do you think what He tells you to do are just suggestions?" I don't know if you're trying to be snarky or what but in case this is an honest question, I'll answer.

No, I am not being snarky. Some people don't take Jesus' words seriously and the author of this OP does not even think Jesus' words should be adhered to because he (RichardBurger) says they are Old Testament. Do you also believe that? I wonder if Dave and Haz believe that?


[quote]No one, upon salvation, takes their first steps in christianity and never sins again. Christianity is a journey, a road, a path, a way, [/quote]

I absolutely agree that Christianity is a journey and THE path, THE way.

[quote]however you want to describe it and at the end of our lifetime we will still not have acheived perfection, but hopefully, we'll be closer than we started. People take that journey at different levels, speeds. All of us, upon salvation, are so messed up with self that it takes time to learn the christian way. [/quote]

Yes, I agree and it does take time to learn God's ways. But, it is not head knowledge we have to concern ourselves with but rather knowledge of Him by His Spirit. I think you would agree with that, too.


[quote]We may start out pure, but if we gave up hope every time we failed, we would be in sorry shape but thankfully, God is merciful to us sinners. The bible tells us that if we "say we do not sin, then we are liars" (paraphrased). God's forgiveness is so perfect that He tells us in Ps. 103:12 - "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." When we receive forgiveness so perfect even if it's for the thousandth time for the same offense, it's as if it were the first time because God doesn't remember the other 999 times. Why would Jesus teach this, if His Father wasn't capable of more. Matt. 18:21-22 - "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [sup]22 [/sup]Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."[/quote]

Yes, Amen! Thank God for His forgiveness. The mercy of the Lord endureth forever.


[quote]Now is this limiting us to 490 times? Of course not, it's Christ way of saying as oft as your brother needs it forgive and that same grace is offered to us when we fail. It's not a matter of not heeding His teachings, it's a matter of being spiritually mature enough to learn how to do that. It's been my observation on this board, that the more one proclaims their holiness and lack of sinning, continually commit a sin of omission by not being loving. [/quote]

I do agree that to really know Jesus is to walk in Love. But it is to Walk in Love for God and walk in love for People. Many just want to talk about walking in love for people but don't talk about what walking in love for God is all about. Jesus tells us what Loving the Lord thy God is all about in John 14-16 and 1 John. I don't see anyone proclaiming THEIR holiness. I read where people are proclaiming that God has called us to holiness.

[quote]One cannot profess to have an "edge" on spirituality and then fail to show love towards another brother or sister just because they have a doctrinal disagreement. That's the perfect example of Paul's warning for us to "not think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think."[/quote]

Again, I don't see anyone professing to have an "edge". I see others throwing out these accusations along with others, but we are all dependent on God's grace and Spirit.

[quote]If Christ taught that "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [sup]22 [/sup]But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matt. 5:21-22) and again in 1 John 2:9-11 - "[sup] [/sup]He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[sup]10 [/sup]He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[sup]11 [/sup]But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."

According to these verses there is a lot of sinning going on in here and people need to learn to take a breath, count to three and chillax before they write a "fiery" response. We never know who is "listening" and honestly, as a christian, I'm kinda embarrassed by what I see in here from time to time.
[/quote]

Yes, it is sad to read angry and vile posts, but you could look at it as an opportunity for ministry if you believe that there is complete deliverance and restoration with the Lord. I believe Christ can set us free from anything and there is nothing that is beyond His ability to set free and heal. Also, I have found that even in forums, prayer changes things so thanks for your reasonable and peaceful post and I hope you stick around and watch the Lord move in all of our lives. I am fairly new here but I have already been blessed by the contribution of many posters

Axehead

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Dear Haz,
I have witnessed nothing but Christ's behavior in Episkopos, as well as truth. The same in Dragonfly and Axehead. As opposed to others here, they are obviously led by the Spirit of Christ with no works of their own manifest. That is why I recognized them immediately. Episkopos is kind, nice, he is intelligent and filled with the Holy Spirit. So are the other two. Not so with many of whom you appear to run with, your salvation is very iffy because of such wickedness toward a Son of God and ignorance of scriptures. It is definetly "goat" behavior. I bear witness in the Holy Spirit. A word to the wise.
Whitestone

I do not feel there is a human here on earth who can fulfill Christ's behavior as you alluded to in your first sentence.

Your concept of The Christ vs The Christian appears delusional

Either that or you are full of yourself and confuse it with being full of The Holy Spirit.

This trait has become quite common in the so-called spirit-filled denominations

Be careful who you bash whitestone ..... you may not be as great as you think ..... and everyone else may not be as bad as you think

 

[brother dave]

For those of us in the truth of grace, the renewing of the mind ,has allowed us to turn our thoughts from self unto Christ. to 'reckon'.

Rom 6:11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
the battle over the flesh for each believer begins and ends in our thoughts! The Cross makes no sense to the natural mind. It has in its power the ability to cast out every lie of satan. The lie of satan came into mans flesh at the tree of knowlege of good and evil. this lie continues today in those who have not considered the logic of the His Cross. The desire to judge others is of this tree. the Cross must make one consider? WHY did God do this thing for us?
And the Cross declares that LOVE is the great judge of the earth! That THE ONLY HOLY ONE, suffered and died for the unholy? That true holiness is only found in love and in the motives of love!

That word in Rom 6:11 'RECKON' is very interesting! in means to impute with logic,or to think ahead to a point not yet reached. Until one is convinced in the scriptures that Grace has the power to overcome all sin? One will not be able to take true advantage of this commandment. for until our minds are set upon Christ and not earthly sin, we will not be able to grow in grace as we should. The law is the strength of sin! it is made to show man his sin! it can only condemn! and blind all those who trust in it! One can never see Christ when self is the issue! One can never love until they have been loved by Him.

 

[Episkopos]

I leave it to readers of this thread to consider the words of Paul


2Co_4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Gal_1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Do people really think that Paul was referring to the gospel of Christ when he said "any other gospel"??? And if Paul is the only legitimate purveyor of this "gospel of grace" then why does he say "we" rather than "I"???

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom_15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Rom_15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
1Co_9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co_9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co_9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
2Co_10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
Gal_1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Php_1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
1Th_3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

If Paul was preaching something different than Jesus was...why does Paul refer to the gospel he was preaching as the gospel of Christ//???



I can see that those who think that God is offering a limited time general amnesty against sin through Paul would react against having to line up the message to the rest of the bible. These think there is an easy out...like a gold rush.... and it's every man for himself.

But which nature does this appeal to? Has God's character changed? These are questions that must be faced if one is to get to the bottom of there being this separate gospel of a total amnesty for sins they call grace. And this apart from the clear teachings of Jesus Christ.

Imagine telling a bank robber (hoping he'll quit of his own) "you can rob as many banks as you wish...we forgive you in adbance and will never send the police after you". Wow!!!! THIS sounds like good news!!! But does this invitation to a lawless amnest work??? I suggest that it doesn't. Why not??? The power of the enemy and the power of the old nature. No man can be trusted to always do the right thing. That is the very premise of this so called "gospel of grace"...but that very premise destroys the argument for trusting in men to do the right thing...always. So the laws stay put. A bank robber still goes to jail if he starts robbing again. The mercy of God indeed gives us chances and we are forgiven much....but we can never take this for granted. When we do we assuredly are abiding in the wrong nature.

So then the false gospel is one that short-circuits the transformation of the sinner into an actual saint who walks by actual grace...a supernatural enabling to walk as Jesus did.

We see how tenaceously this false gospel is held to by many on this forum. This is a fundamental issue that either makes the cross for Jesus alone or makes Jesus an example to follow by taking up our own cross in like fashion. I have stated my position based on the word and my own experience.

 

[brother dave]

YES! they seem to really love themselves? and seem to hate what He loves? it really sounds like another Jesus? a different one!
for our Jesus came to save that which is lost!
theirs seems to want to lose that which is saved?
our Jesus came not to condemn but to give life in abundace!
theirs only condemns and brings seperation from the Father?
our Jesus has a easy yoke and light burden!
theirs brings all men into a state of fear and the yoke of law?
NO BROTHER WE GOT THE RIGHT ONE! JESUS CHRIST, THE SAME YESTERDAY,TODAY AND TOMORROW

THE READERS OF THIS THREAD HAVE UNCOVERED YOU! you know nothing of His love and compassion! you seek to destroy others faith! you have run your course here , we all see you! even those who onced believed your phony doctrine? even now they are considering the fault in your lies! soon they too will turn to the Grace of God!

2Co 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

One should really consider the false doctrines of (epi)? and the spirit that seeks to condemn all but those that agree with his doctrine of works? is this the Jesus of love and mercy? The holy of holies is the MERCY SEAT! holiness is only found in mercy! He sets on a throne of mercy! THATS THE REAL JESUS!

Jer 17:5


Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.




For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh;

 

[williemac]

I leave it to readers of this thread to consider the words of Paul


2Co_4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Gal_1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Do people really think that Paul was referring to the gospel of Christ when he said "any other gospel"??? And if Paul is the only legitimate purveyor of this "gospel of grace" then why does he say "we" rather than "I"???

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom_15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Rom_15:29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.
1Co_9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co_9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co_9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
2Co_10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
Gal_1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Php_1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
1Th_3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

If Paul was preaching something different than Jesus was...why does Paul refer to the gospel he was preaching as the gospel of Christ//???

I am glad that you agree that Paul' wrote that which Christ gave him to write. The word "gospel" means good news. Jesus announced good news in John 3:16. He announced good news in John6:50,51, in proclaiming that to live forever, one must partake of His body and blood. He annouced salvation by faith. But Paul revealed that which Jesus did not. Certain aspects of the gosp[el were kept hidden, not to be revealed until after the sacrifice of Jesus. So Jesus revealed them to Paul, as His messenger of His gospel.

I can see that those who think that God is offering a limited time general amnesty against sin through Paul would react against having to line up the message to the rest of the bible. These think there is an easy out...like a gold rush.... and it's every man for himself.

John saw a multitude which no one could number, standing before the throne. So I ask, is it hard to gain eternal life, or easy?

But which nature does this appeal to? Has God's character changed? These are questions that must be faced if one is to get to the bottom of there being this separate gospel of a total amnesty for sins they call grace. And this apart from the clear teachings of Jesus Christ.

Total amnesty for sin is exactly what was prophesied in the bible and what Jesus suggested and also demonstrated. Or does "their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more" mean something different than what it says? God is good.

Imagine telling a bank robber (hoping he'll quit of his own) "you can rob as many banks as you wish...we forgive you in adbance and will never send the police after you". Wow!!!! THIS sounds like good news!!! But does this invitation to a lawless amnest work??? I suggest that it doesn't. Why not??? The power of the enemy and the power of the old nature. No man can be trusted to always do the right thing. That is the very premise of this so called "gospel of grace"...but that very premise destroys the argument for trusting in men to do the right thing...always. So the laws stay put. A bank robber still goes to jail if he starts robbing again. The mercy of God indeed gives us chances and we are forgiven much....but we can never take this for granted. When we do we assuredly are abiding in the wrong nature.

What you are describing is true in this world. We face temporal consequences for our wrongdoings. Our sins are clearly going to get us into trouble in this life. In fact, all whom Jesus loves He rebukes and chastens. However, the "bank robber" analogy is somewhat unrealisitic. The problem is that in order to come to God for forgiveness, one must actually recognize and acknowledge the sin that caused Jesus to come and die. There is a certain remorse that goes hand in hand with this acknowledgment. It is rather naive to think that a person would go through this process and come out the other side with no conscience, and just keep on sinning because he knows he can get away with it. Go and read Romans chapter 7 again. Paul admitted that he was in agreement with the law in principle, but saw that sin was still part of his experience. This is the mindset that gives us freedom from condemnation. What makes you think that any of us on this thread or in the body of Christ takes his life in Christ for granted? Do you presume to be a phsycic, knowing the hearts of men?

So then the false gospel is one that short-circuits the transformation of the sinner into an actual saint who walks by actual grace...a supernatural enabling to walk as Jesus did.

No one would disagree that our life in Christ can indeed be a powerful experience. No one would disagree that we can walk in this life with fruit for His glory. However, there is no place found in scripure that requires us to walk in perfect righteousness 24/7, 365 days of the year, in order to attain or keep eternal life. It is delusional to even presume that this is the case or that this kind of walk is even possible.

We see how tenaceously this false gospel is held to by many on this forum. This is a fundamental issue that either makes the cross for Jesus alone or makes Jesus an example to follow by taking up our own cross in like fashion. I have stated my position based on the word and my own experience.

Your own experience? Read the account of the two that prayed to God in Luke 18:10-14. The Pharisee relied on his experience to justify him before God. The tax collecter beat his breast and confessed his sin, asking for forgiveness. The latter went away justified. The problem was not that the Pharisee did unrighteousness, but that he took pride in it. Jesus concluded that one must be humble in order to be justified. In fact, James said that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. We are advised to remain humble in spite of our experience.
However, God Himself chose to give His Holy Spirit to His children as a garuntee of their inheritance. Our walk is not our garuntee. Our relationship is.
In Math.20:1-16, Jesus told a parable of a man who hired labourers to work in his vineyard. He hired them at differing parts of the day, right up until the end of the day, but paid them all the same wage. Those hired earlier were angered. Why? Because they did more work for the same reward. In so many words, He told them that it was His own business to do what He wants with what is His. He asked a question..." Is your eye evil because I am good?" ( vs.15)
Do you think that this was about when a person gets saved? No. This is not about timing, it is about what is required of a person. So I ask you, are you angered because there are those who do less work than you and are claiming the same reward? We are saved because God is good, not because we are good.
But do you actually think that you walk as Jesus walked? 24/7? If this is even remotely possible, I advise you that you remain humble and that you do not go around stuffing this into the faces of those whom you disaprove of. In fact, it was Jesus who advised this, as I have shared.

This discussion may well have been profitable to exhort others to walk righteously in the power of Christ, if it had not entered into the arena of qualification for eternal life. Our walk may well indeed bring rewards on the judgment seat of Christ, but our walk does not save us nor keep us saved. We are saved by grace and kept by grace...period.

 

[Episkopos]

I am glad that you agree that Paul' wrote that which Christ gave him to write. The word "gospel" means good news. Jesus announced good news in John 3:16. He announced good news in John6:50,51, in proclaiming that to live forever, one must partake of His body and blood. He annouced salvation by faith. But Paul revealed that which Jesus did not. Certain aspects of the gosp[el were kept hidden, not to be revealed until after the sacrifice of Jesus. So Jesus revealed them to Paul, as His messenger of His gospel.

I think your understanding is skewed by the wordings of Paul. Paul was no innovator of the gospel and had no different or superior access to greater understanding than any other apostle. Paul was indeed the least of the apostles. I think the fact that we Gentiles are the target of Paul's writings makes the possibility that we will claim our "team" to be superior. But Paul says himself that to claim we are "of Paul" or any other similar partisan statement is carnal. So we must reject the idea that somehow Paul was in any way privy to a greater understanding of God's ways than say...Peter or John. Thinking otherwise creates a foundation for many heretical beliefs that we are actually warned about by Peter.


I agree with you that many wrongdoings of the saints will be lived out as reapings in this life alone. I certainly don'r want to take away from that. But we also see that MANY will be rejected by Jesus ALTOGETHER due to the workings of iniquity. It is for this reason that I seek to draw attention to the reality of the workings of grace in those who not only profess but also practice the truth. It is the doers of the law that are justified not the hearers...we must do the commands of Christ not just acknowledge them.

No one would disagree that our life in Christ can indeed be a powerful experience. No one would disagree that we can walk in this life with fruit for His glory. However, there is no place found in scripure that requires us to walk in perfect righteousness 24/7, 365 days of the year, in order to attain or keep eternal life. It is delusional to even presume that this is the case or that this kind of walk is even possible.

Have you read the bible without this presupposition....or through it? To think that walking as a saint is easy in this life flies in the face of the words of Jesus...that it is difficult and that few will make even after trying.

The fact that there are many around the throne should not cause one to reason that their thesis must be right. The way in Christ is not about "getting saved"...it is an apprenticeship to ruling with Christ and being the bride of Christ. Being saved is not the same as the calling in Christ any more than being a graduate of West Point is required to join the army.

I think the confusion over what I'm saying comes through the prejudice of a false understanding of the gospel and it's goal. The gospel s not about saving lives...but about transforming men into new creations..WHILE THEY YET LIVE IN THE FLESH. If a person cannot see this difference then a whole lot of unlearning must first take place before any kingdom idea can be taken in and actually understood.

Y

our own experience? Read the account of the two that prayed to God in Luke 18:10-14. The Pharisee relied on his experience to justify him before God. The tax collecter beat his breast and confessed his sin, asking for forgiveness. The latter went away justified. The problem was not that the Pharisee did unrighteousness, but that he took pride in it. Jesus concluded that one must be humble in order to be justified. In fact, James said that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. We are advised to remain humble in spite of our experience.

You are making the wrong parallel...I am trying to preach the gospel to people who have been led astray by a different gospel that seeks to justify the natural man...not transform a man into the image of Christ through the LAYING DOWN of the natural man in order to make room for the new man. We are talking here of a damnation...not just a lesser portion of blessing. Hence the need for an insistance.

However, God Himself chose to give His Holy Spirit to His children as a garuntee of their inheritance. Our walk is not our garuntee. Our relationship is.

Our walk is our witness to the truth. The reason the world mocks God and the church is because of the unreality of the claims of Christians. Should we believe that the world was more gullible in the time of the early church?...or was the witness more real?

In Math.20:1-16, Jesus told a parable of a man who hired labourers to work in his vineyard. He hired them at differing parts of the day, right up until the end of the day, but paid them all the same wage. Those hired earlier were angered. Why? Because they did more work for the same reward. In so many words, He told them that it was His own business to do what He wants with what is His. He asked a question..." Is your eye evil because I am good?" ( vs.15)
Do you think that this was about when a person gets saved? No. This is not about timing, it is about what is required of a person. So I ask you, are you angered because there are those who do less work than you and are claiming the same reward? We are saved because God is good, not because we are good.

This parable is not about the calling in Christ or about the saints. Would a saint judge another saint for having done more or less? A saint is dead to this type of carnal reasoning. Rather this parable is about those who turn their lives around at various stages of life. The reward for doing what is right (righteousness) is always the same. The righteous are SCARCELY saved!!! Not so the saints. The saints are abundantly saved. I am positive that you don't understand this distinction...

1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Rather the saints are described in the parable of the talents. Notice that the one who did not add to his faith but buried his talent (grace) was lost...rejected. THIS is what I am warning about. I don't think you are able to see that either....

But do you actually think that you walk as Jesus walked? 24/7? If this is even remotely possible, I advise you that you remain humble and that you do not go around stuffing this into the faces of those whom you disaprove of. In fact, it was Jesus who advised this, as I have shared.

We are commanded to!!!! And His commandments are not grievous. He actually does the walking THROUGH us that make room for Him to do so. John uses this measuring stick to determine whether or not we are abiding in Him or not. How can you completely ignore the witness of John???? This is beyond me...

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

By remaining humble do you mean not warn others? Promise me now that you will not reproach anyone for not warning you about this....

This discussion may well have been profitable to exhort others to walk righteously in the power of Christ, if it had not entered into the arena of qualification for eternal life. Our walk may well indeed bring rewards on the judgment seat of Christ, but our walk does not save us nor keep us saved. We are saved by grace and kept by grace...period.

I am talking of walking in the eternal life NOW. I am not saying it is a requirement to be saved. If you knew what I held for a simple salvation from death then you would probably think I err on the other side...TOO merciful...

God will have mercy on all kinds of people . He will save Jews, Muslims, Hindus, truck drivers...etc...BY HIS MERCY.

It is your error that one must be a saint to be saved...not mine. The Samaritan in the parable could be a Muslim today...and die a Muslim...and still be saved. The nations will be judged by what they did...did they help others?...etc..

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

I was in the midst of replying when your reply was notified. Surely your comment about the Muslim at the end, can apply only if he has never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ?

I mean, he has never heard and rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ. John 16:9

 

[brother dave]

i think brothers and sisters in Christ? we may make a mistake in trying to make detailed points with one, such as epi! for no true foundaion of truth has been estabished in him. we may try in vain to show the ignorance of his use of scripture? but scripture has no real value to him at all! Therefore all scripture is subject to change at his every need!
THE ASPOSTLE PAUL WROTE: ALL MEN WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL! THAT IF EVEN AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN PREACHED ANOTHER GOSPEL? NOT TO REGARED THERE CURSED DOCTRINE! NOW EITHER PAUL WAS A LYING OR TELLING THE TRUTH? I BELIEVE IN PAULS REPORT!
NOW CLEARLY,little epi and his friends, are trying to establish another jesus! and they bring with them a condemning spirit! but we who believe may take up this serpent and suffer not! but lets bring the snake to a clear light and not get caught in the legalist trap of aurguing scripture they dont believe anyway! TRY A LITTLE BOLD REBUKE? YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED HOW BIG A CHICKEN THIS little one epi is!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

I was in the midst of replying when your reply was notified. Surely your comment about the Muslim at the end, can apply only if he has never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ?

I mean, he has never heard and rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ. John 16:9

Exactly!!! How could a truly righteous man accept the drivel that is preached from the pulpits of today???

Of course many true children of God also go to the churches...but can they remain there and NOT be affected negatively by the subtle message that encourages the natural man to rejoice in his fallen state????

So a man that has never heard the true gospel yet behaves righteously...will be saved. It is not the hearers but the doers that are justified. God gives grace to the humble.

Our job is to make disciples...not converts to a false religion called "churchianity"/.

 

[brother dave]

Exactly!!! How could a truly righteous man accept the drivel that is preached from the pulpits of today???

Of course many true children of God also go to the churches...but can they remain there and NOT be affected negatively by the subtle message that encourages the natural man to rejoice in his fallen state????

So a man that has never heard the true gospel yet behaves righteously...will be saved. It is not the hearers but the doers that are justified. God gives grace to the humble.

Our job is to make disciples...not converts to a false religion called "churchianity"/.

2Co 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

ANOTHER COMPLEX JESUS? ellen g white would be so proud of you!

By the way ,i have all weekend ! Nothing i love more than speaking of the beauty and goodness of The Lord Jesus! and i will enjoy this weekend defending His mercy! i go work on monday morning i know you dont have a job so then is probably the best time for you to post your nonsense.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Howie,

However, there is no place found in scripure that requires us to walk in perfect righteousness 24/7, 365 days of the year,

I disagree. I believe John covers this very point from several different angles - from the point of view of victory over sin as a natural response to the sacrifice of Christ and His victory, from the point of view of loving one another as He loved us, from the point of view of becoming sons of God through obeying all his commandments (not just some or most of them), and from the point of view of being not 'of' this world.

Episkopos pointed out -

We are commanded to!!!! And His commandments are not grievous. He actually does the walking THROUGH us that make room for Him to do so.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,

because their deeds were evil. ​

20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another,

and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.


John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:
therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.


6 Whoever abides in him sins not:

whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.




1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.



John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he takes away: and every [branch] that bears fruit,

he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit. ​

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine;

no more can ye, except ye abide in me. ​

5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit:

for without me ye can do nothing. ​

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them

and cast into the fire and they are burned. ​

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.



With Episkopos' exclamation that we are commanded to walk as Jesus walked, and the above verses in mind, do you know there's a preacher here on CyB who declares once one is a Christian, apart from sinning all the time anyway, one could even could even commit murder and one wouldn't have to repent because all one's future sins are already forgiven?

Is that the 'gospel' in your Bible?


Is this what you mean by not being expected to walk in the light ' 24/7 365 days of the year'?


Would you think this preacher had understood the purpose of what happened on the cross, or read Rom 3:25, or this verse -

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his.

And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity...?



You see, I think we make a mistake using our own ideas of what 'perfection' should look like, and giving up too easily, rather than using the Bible's. Much of the discussion on this forum would be different, if only Bible's meanings of terms were used.

Regarding the innumerable crowd which John saw, we have to remember that possibly many many more have gone before us. Think of all those who died before modern medicine and birth control, at a time when the human race was physically stronger.

 

[Axehead]

YES! they seem to really love themselves? and seem to hate what He loves? it really sounds like another Jesus? a different one!
for our Jesus came to save that which is lost!
theirs seems to want to lose that which is saved?
our Jesus came not to condemn but to give life in abundace!
theirs only condemns and brings seperation from the Father?
our Jesus has a easy yoke and light burden!
theirs brings all men into a state of fear and the yoke of law?
NO BROTHER WE GOT THE RIGHT ONE! JESUS CHRIST, THE SAME YESTERDAY,TODAY AND TOMORROW

THE READERS OF THIS THREAD HAVE UNCOVERED YOU! you know nothing of His love and compassion! you seek to destroy others faith! you have run your course here , we all see you! even those who onced believed your phony doctrine? even now they are considering the fault in your lies! soon they too will turn to the Grace of God!

2Co 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

One should really consider the false doctrines of (epi)? and the spirit that seeks to condemn all but those that agree with his doctrine of works? is this the Jesus of love and mercy? The holy of holies is the MERCY SEAT! holiness is only found in mercy! He sets on a throne of mercy! THATS THE REAL JESUS!

Jer 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh;

Jesus did come to save that which was lost, and that is done by abiding in Him and obeying Him. Not by saying a prayer or believing a doctrine.

Love and compassion will preach the truth, the whole counsel of God and not be worried about being hated.

Only the whole counsel of God helps people. A partial gospel only supports and enables a life of rebellion. I am confident that those who hear Jesus will be able to sort out the truth that is being posted in this thread.


Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Axehead

2Co 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

ANOTHER COMPLEX JESUS? ellen g white would be so proud of you!

By the way ,i have all weekend ! Nothing i love more than speaking of the beauty and goodness of The Lord Jesus! and i will enjoy this weekend defending His mercy! i go work on monday morning i know you dont have a job so then is probably the best time for you to post your nonsense.

There is no beauty and goodness to Jesus if He is not capable of enabling us through His life to be overcomers.

God is not the author of confusion and that is why Paul's words and Jesus' words are perfectly in sync. The Holy Spirit is the "behind the scenes" writer of the Scriptures. You could call Him the "Ghost writer". :)

What do you think of Jesus' words, Dave? Richard does not care for them. Do you? And I mean ALL of HIS words.


John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


Axehead

 

[brother dave]

LETS SEE? DRAGONFLY BELIEVES THAT MOSES WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM? AND I REALLY DONT HAVE THE TIME TO TEACH YOU GUYS THE WHOLE NEW TESAMENT! BUT AGAIN JUST AS WITH THE RICH YOUNG RULER? YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE MASTERS WORDS.
THE POINT BEING THAT WHEN HE FORGIVES THEIR IS NO CONDEMNATON FOR THOSE IN HIM! AS REVEALED IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT SIN WILL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT HIS GRACE. THE AWARNESS OF HIS FORGIVENESS IS THE POWER OR STRENGTH OVER SIN! BY THE WAY DO YOU BELIEVE MOSES WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM?

The evidence of you guys wishing to destroy or condemn all others to hell, proves that you hate in your heart! for the hatred of man,always seeks to destroy other men. this is what John meant when he spoke of those who hate!
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


TRUE CHRISTIANS DO NOT SEEK TO CONDEMN AND DESTROY OTHERS!
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

[whitestone]

LETS SEE? DRAGONFLY BELIEVES THAT MOSES WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM? AND I REALLY DONT HAVE THE TIME TO TEACH YOU GUYS THE WHOLE NEW TESAMENT! BUT AGAIN JUST AS WITH THE RICH YOUNG RULER? YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE MASTERS WORDS.
THE POINT BEING THAT WHEN HE FORGIVES THEIR IS NO CONDEMNATON FOR THOSE IN HIM! AS REVEALED IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT SIN WILL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT HIS GRACE. THE AWARNESS OF HIS FORGIVENESS IS THE POWER OR STRENGTH OVER SIN! BY THE WAY DO YOU BELIEVE MOSES WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM?

The evidence of you guys wishing to destroy or condemn all others to hell, proves that you hate in your heart! for the hatred of man,always seeks to destroy other men. this is what John meant when he spoke of those who hate!
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.


TRUE CHRISTIANS DO NOT SEEK TO CONDEMN AND DESTROY OTHERS!
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Jesus did come to save that which was lost, and that is done by abiding in Him and obeying Him. Not by saying a prayer or believing a doctrine.

Love and compassion will preach the truth, the whole counsel of God and not be worried about being hated.

Only the whole counsel of God helps people. A partial gospel only supports and enables a life of rebellion. I am confident that those who hear Jesus will be able to sort out the truth that is being posted in this thread.


Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Axehead



There is no beauty and goodness to Jesus if He is not capable of enabling us through His life to be overcomers.

God is not the author of confusion and that is why Paul's words and Jesus' words are perfectly in sync. The Holy Spirit is the "behind the scenes" writer of the Scriptures. You could call Him the "Ghost writer". :)

What do you think of Jesus' words, Dave? Richard does not care for them. Do you? And I mean ALL of HIS words.


John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


Axehead

Truth is easy to see Axehead :)
So also is your Spirit of Christ in the midst of these wolves.
Blessings are yours forever as these enemies of the gospel continue to enlarge their hell with their mouths running against the truth of Christ you speak, while their eyes and ears are closed in their own delusions.
We can count ourselves fortunate to receive grief from the devil for the Name of Christ.
Praise Jesus.

Hi Howie,



I disagree. I believe John covers this very point from several different angles - from the point of view of victory over sin as a natural response to the sacrifice of Christ and His victory, from the point of view of loving one another as He loved us, from the point of view of becoming sons of God through obeying all his commandments (not just some or most of them), and from the point of view of being not 'of' this world.

Episkopos pointed out -



John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,

because their deeds were evil. ​

20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another,

and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.


John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:
therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.


6 Whoever abides in him sins not:

whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.




1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.



John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he takes away: and every [branch] that bears fruit,

he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit. ​

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine;

no more can ye, except ye abide in me. ​

5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit:

for without me ye can do nothing. ​

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them

and cast into the fire and they are burned. ​

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.



With Episkopos' exclamation that we are commanded to walk as Jesus walked, and the above verses in mind, do you know there's a preacher here on CyB who declares once one is a Christian, apart from sinning all the time anyway, one could even could even commit murder and one wouldn't have to repent because all one's future sins are already forgiven?

Is that the 'gospel' in your Bible?


Is this what you mean by not being expected to walk in the light ' 24/7 365 days of the year'?


Would you think this preacher had understood the purpose of what happened on the cross, or read Rom 3:25, or this verse -

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his.

And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity...?



You see, I think we make a mistake using our own ideas of what 'perfection' should look like, and giving up too easily, rather than using the Bible's. Much of the discussion on this forum would be different, if only Bible's meanings of terms were used.

Regarding the innumerable crowd which John saw, we have to remember that possibly many many more have gone before us. Think of all those who died before modern medicine and birth control, at a time when the human race was physically stronger.

Yes, very nice post Dragonfly.

It is because of your abiding in Christ and bearing His fruit that I recognized you and Axehead and Episkopos as soon as I came to this site. May you be blessed in continuing your Living Witness of the Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine;

no more can ye, except ye abide in me. ​

Exactly!!! How could a truly righteous man accept the drivel that is preached from the pulpits of today???

Of course many true children of God also go to the churches...but can they remain there and NOT be affected negatively by the subtle message that encourages the natural man to rejoice in his fallen state????

So a man that has never heard the true gospel yet behaves righteously...will be saved. It is not the hearers but the doers that are justified. God gives grace to the humble.

Our job is to make disciples...not converts to a false religion called "churchianity"/.

Amen Epi,

Many are called, few are chosen. Most of those called don't know that they are tares, the way they "cover themselves" with their "churchianity", not knowing that they are preaching strange doctrines of the devil in their hatred and ignorance.

You stand out here as a light in a dark place. As a sheep amongst wolves. At every post. At every fiery dart fired back at you. Your conduct is exemplary. Your ministering of the Word of Christ in the Love of God in the midst of unruly wild children, is a high calling, with great Blessing in return to you in Christ, I am here to tell you :) In case you were tiring... Be not weary in well doing :)
Stay steadfast and immovable in the work of the Lord brother,

Whitestone