To you, these are two different things?
John 17:1-3 NLT
(1) When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son so he can give glory back to you.
(2) For you have given him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given him.
(3) And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
If I may be so bold as to jump in alongside Dave . . .
It tells me differently from what you have been saying, that is why your answer is of particular interest.
There really is no two ways about Abraham, and the Bible holds him up as the example. That's why this is important.
What is the sense of this question?
Do you suggest man justifies other men, or himself???
Nothing more than a distraction. When it gets difficult, you and your friends have this pattern. Rather than actually respond to the statements made, you would rather just make some lofty sounding insinuation that you are the only wise, everyone else so fallen.
If I only had a dime for everytime I've seen on this form how you and your friends have avoided answering the difficult questions with this ploy.
Is that honestly what you think Dave is saying????
Do you actually think Dave is suggesting that Dave saves?
Or is this simply yet another way of not answering what you KNOW cannot be answered according to your doctrine of works?
Someone who disagrees with you must be self-justified? Non-sequitor. Maybe I'm dreaming too low . . . maybe a dime for every time you guys use a logical fallacy . . . Yes . . . . that'll do it!
The Bible tells what true faith is. I am not justifed by myself, but, Listen . . . are you listening? I'm not justified by you.
Romans 5:1-2 NLT
(1) Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
(2) Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of highest privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God's glory.
Romans 3:19-28 NLT
(19) Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses and to bring the entire world into judgment before God.
(20) For no one can ever be made right in God's sight by doing what his law commands. For the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't obeying it.
(21) But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight--not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago.
(22) We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done.
(23) For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard.
(24) Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins.
(25) For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times.
(26) And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus.
(27) Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith.
(28) So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
Galatians 3
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[sup]
a[/sup] the flesh?
Christ lives in those who believe, not in those who behave.
Consider the logic in this simple statement of Scritpure. These Galatians, who are trying to become completed in the flesh, began in the Spirit. They received the Spirit, but were now off track. They received the Spirit by faith, not works. And having received the Spirit, they still were being pulled into a works doctrine. Paul calls this being foolish.
Your words are wrong.