The 144,000 before God at the end.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,362
204
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He leaves heaven when the 7th trump sounds, after that is when he is seen with the 144k.
Revelation 14 takes place in the seals.

The coming of Jesus for the harvest occurs at the 6th seal before wrath.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,863
4,171
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 14 takes place in the seals.

The coming of Jesus for the harvest occurs at the 6th seal before wrath.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation is not a strict chronological view.

It reflects, repeats and shows various viewpoints.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,863
4,171
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 14 takes place in the seals.

The coming of Jesus for the harvest occurs at the 6th seal before wrath.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Romans 11:25-27

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

We AGREE this is the TRUTH = Yes
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,362
204
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, it takes place at the 7th trump.

Not possible as it's over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is over and it is the time of judgement.

If you don't understand what the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord means, nothing I can do.
Nope. Jesus isn't opening seals and at the same time leaving the seals to do other things.
Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. This is why there are a great multitude in heaven that are going to attend the marriage supper.

The scriptures show these things. If you don't accept what is written, nothing I can do.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
6,081
1,236
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not possible as it's over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is over and it is the time of judgement.

Armageddon isn't over at the 7th trump. It doesn't even start until after the 6th vial pours.


If you don't understand what the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord means, nothing I can do.

I know what it means but you don't. It doesn't mean there isn't a war to be fought.


Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.

No, he does no such thing. The seal only describes his future coming and no harvest is mentioned because the seal only describes what the unsaved see and feel. You are adding to the seal what the seal does not speak of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: David in NJ

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,263
938
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
The coming of Jesus for the harvest occurs at the 6th seal before wrath.
The harvest of death to the ungodly: NOT a harvest of the Church at all.

Deuteronomy 32:41 When I set My hand to judgement, My sword will devour flesh.

Isaiah 28:21-22 The Lord will arise and storm with rage, destruction is decreed upon the earth.

Isaiah 66:16 He will judge with fire, many will be slain by Him.

Isaiah 34:5 For My sword is prepared, it descends in judgement on those doomed for death.

Isaiah 51:6 The sky will be dispersed like smoke and the people will die like flies.

Jeremiah 25:33 Those that the Lord kills on that Day will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned or buried, they will be as dung on the ground.

Isaiah 63:1-6 The Lord comes from the nations, His garments splashed with blood, His Day of vengeance had come and He tramped on them and spilled out their blood.

Psalm 37:20 Evil people will die, they will be incinerated and go up in smoke.

Isaiah 13:12 Humans will become scarce, more rare that fine gold.

Ezekiel 30:4-5 Egypt will suffer anguish...her slain will fall along with all the Arab lands.

Zephaniah 1:3 & 11 I shall destroy humans and animals, I shall bring the godless to their knees. Dire distress will come to sinful peoples, their blood and guts will spill on the ground.

Jeremiah 9:22 Corpses will lie like dung in the fields, with no one to gather them.

Ezekiel 21:3 My sword of judgement will kill both the righteous and wicked alike, from the Negev, Northward.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
6,081
1,236
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
2 Nebuchadnezzar 7:31 Cherry picking scriptures is to take random scriptures that don't contextually belong together and place them in a post as if they all are speaking of the same thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: David in NJ

Space_Karen

Well-Known Member
Oct 1, 2022
416
289
63
39
west coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think there is an evolution of christianity over time which may be reflected by numbers.

-Eras of solitary prophetic figures: 1 prophet era
-Jesus and the 12 Apostles may have hinted at the number and frequency of prophets in the world increasing

If the number of prophets continues to increase over the years.

Eventually a point may be reached where there are 144,000 prophets on earth.

I would guess 144,000 contains references and symbolism which could be linked to some system of numerology. Clueless on what that might invoke.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,765
1,934
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I think there is an evolution of christianity over time which may be reflected by numbers.

-Eras of solitary prophetic figures: 1 prophet era
-Jesus and the 12 Apostles may have hinted at the number and frequency of prophets in the world increasing

If the number of prophets continues to increase over the years.

Eventually a point may be reached where there are 144,000 prophets on earth.

I would guess 144,000 contains references and symbolism which could be linked to some system of numerology. Clueless on what that might invoke.
May I suggest the following:

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,263
938
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
2 Nebuchadnezzar 7:31 Cherry picking scriptures is to take random scriptures that don't contextually belong together and place them in a post as if they all are speaking of the same thing.
The prophetic Words I posted in #529, are all describing the result of the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath: the Sixth Seal.
They have no feasible application to any other event, past or future.
 

ewq1938

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2015
6,081
1,236
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The prophetic Words I posted in #529, are all describing the result of the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath: the Sixth Seal.
They have no feasible application to any other event, past or future.

So many of them are not related, nor from the same events or context. Not one of them matches anything found in the 6th seal. Fire is not mentioned in the language of the seal at all yet you insist it is "firery wrath". That should bother you but it doesn't.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
7,863
4,171
113
48
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think there is an evolution of christianity over time which may be reflected by numbers.

-Eras of solitary prophetic figures: 1 prophet era
-Jesus and the 12 Apostles may have hinted at the number and frequency of prophets in the world increasing

If the number of prophets continues to increase over the years.

Eventually a point may be reached where there are 144,000 prophets on earth.

I would guess 144,000 contains references and symbolism which could be linked to some system of numerology. Clueless on what that might invoke.
Correct = "144,000 contains references and symbolism"

Read Revelation chapters 7 and 21
 
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,362
204
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The prophetic Words I posted in #529, are all describing the result of the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath: the Sixth Seal.
They have no feasible application to any other event, past or future.
The verses that you posted have to do with events of the 7th seal. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,362
204
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think there is an evolution of christianity over time which may be reflected by numbers.

-Eras of solitary prophetic figures: 1 prophet era
-Jesus and the 12 Apostles may have hinted at the number and frequency of prophets in the world increasing

If the number of prophets continues to increase over the years.

Eventually a point may be reached where there are 144,000 prophets on earth.

I would guess 144,000 contains references and symbolism which could be linked to some system of numerology. Clueless on what that might invoke.
Don't be fooled into believing that the 144,000 are the Church. The 144,000 are EXACTLY what the Word says they are which are
first fruits of the second harvest.

The Church is already in heaven before the 144.000 are sealed. See Revelation 5
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
2,362
204
63
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
No, there is plenty of doubt about it. The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, Israel. They are first fruits. There is no mystery to solve as they are EXACTLY what God says they are in His Word.

Of course, you have to change the meaning of the Word of God, in an attempt to explain where the Church is as they rest safely in the ark of heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,910
21,967
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, there is plenty of doubt about it. The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, Israel. They are first fruits. There is no mystery to solve as they are EXACTLY what God says they are in His Word.

Of course, you have to change the meaning of the Word of God, in an attempt to explain where the Church is as they rest safely in the ark of heaven.
This is the very thing that's burning me out on this forum, way too many unbelievers. Who read a passage, can't fit it into their ideas, and then find a way to understand it but not by what it says, but by making it something else.

I'm seeing this all over the forum.

Much love!