If you actually accept it exactly as written, you will find a pre-trib rapture there. Many people do a little mental flip on a couple of words resulting in a faulty conclusion.
Much love!
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The 144,000 before God at the end.
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Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Actually you wont . I see now what the problem is .
WHEN pre trib teaches tribulation they teach it to mean the tribulation of the beast against the saints , IS the wrath of GOD .
IT AINT . Man gonna hate us mark . the beast and satan is no lover of lambs . THEY GONNA KILL us or try too anyway .
GOD will destroy them and all who followed it on HIS DAY .
GODS wrath cometh against THOSE WHO DID NOT BELIEVE ON CHRIST , THE BEAST and all who followed it .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
THEY DO MARK . they sure do exactly that . i watch pre tribbers do it all the time .
As i have watched many others do the same . how about we got back to the bible and let us all just learn for ourselves .
Funny how this goes both ways, no? :) You say this, but I'm sure the person you're arguing with thinks/says the very same about you. And he or she is right.
Aside from that, you just recently said, "Going personal is thread killer." Are you not doing that very thing here? You are... :) Maybe you think speaking in the third person ("them" and "they), you think you are able to dismiss that, but no... :)
God never ~ in all of Scripture, never ~ promises removal from anything, tribulation included. He always, in all of Scripture, promises to be with His people, protecting and providing for them, through it. I.E...
* As when, before the Exodus, the people of God were protected from God's wrath ~ even though they were present in the midst of it ~ by the blood on their lintels and two doorposts...
"...For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you. You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever." (Exodus 12)
...which pointed to the blood of Jesus protecting us even now... and to the end, the time of His return.
* As in Psalm 23, where David sings:
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever." (Psalm 23:4-6)
* Jesus says this explicitly:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)
Grace and peace to you.
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No, the Jew was not to be first, and no plan changed.
Israel from its birth and throughout its history was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22). Those who were first were those Israelites, both Jews and Gentiles, who were faithful and obedient to God and His Covenant.
Faithfulness and obedience were the requirements of God's Plan, from His old covenant, to His New Covenant in the Blood of His Son offered to the whole world; and that Plan has never changed, nor will it ever change, before His Son returns again.
God is not a racist.
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The entire historical true Christian Church for 17 centuries found no pre-trib rapture there. Whom to believe?
1. The entire historical true Christian Church for 17 centuries
2. Darby and Scofield modernists
Who needs a hint?
Not true. At least, not me, and not those I've known.
The wrath of God is in the plagues, and I think the most of us know that.
Perhaps you shouldn't try to argue our side for us, I'm not sure you understand what we think.
Much love!
Whom did the entire historical true Christian Church for 17 centuries believe?
Whom do Darby and Scofield modernists believe?
Who do you believe? The "historical church" as you think it to be, or Paul?
Equating "our being gathered" to the Lord with "the day of Christ"/"the day of the Lord" is a false equivalency, but that doesn't stop a great many people from making it.
Following the grammar of that passage seems to be a challenge of nightmarish proportions for some people. I think many find it much easier to just not bother, because it would rock their boat anyway.
Much love!
Why do you say "or Paul"?
Do you think that the entire historical true Christian Church for 17 centuries did not correctly interpret Paul?
On the basis of probability alone, who is more likely to have correctly interpreted Paul?
1. The entire historical true Christian Church for 17 centuries
2. Darby/Scofield modernists
The question is whether you'd like to study men's interpretations or the Scriptures themselves. Lot's of people make their "appeals to authority", but that's not the same as Bible Study. You can put together your list of sources, the next guy will do the same, and so on.
So my appeal to authority is the Bible itself. The wording it uses, the actual words.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Your character was never attacked AND your salvation was never questioned.
Pre-trib is a lie. The LORD does not want you or anyone speaking that which is false.
Nobody wants you to suffer loss at the Feet of Jesus = hay wood and stuble will burn up = 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
KEY to Victory = Matthew 4:4
The Light
Well-Known Member
Poppycock.
Poppycock. Do some RE-search
I would believe Jesus, Paul and John.
The things you believe were born by unbelieving men from the Church of Rome --- for one Augustine. No faith that God would keep His Word. The teachings of those dressed in purple and scarlet with a gold cup their hand that will ride the beast.........soon. I think you need more than a hint as you seem clueless as to what is happening.
As for Darby, apparently a great man of faith. No nation of Israel for 1300 plus years and he says Israel will be born again, just as the Word says.
As for me, I did not know Darby or His teachings. I also had the advantage that there was a nation of Israel. Turns out what I believe agrees with the Word of God. And that of course happens to agree with what Darby proclaimed.
A wise virgin would be praying that they are worthy to escape all the things that will come to pass in the tribulation and stand before the Son of Man. A wise virgin would be loading the ark. What would a foolish virgin be doing?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
It is so EASY for us to AGREE with the WORD when we walk away from religion and 'respect of persons.'
i still remember when i first read this scripture Luke = 16:15
"For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God."
Unfortunately, pre-trib rapture is one of those things which is highly esteemed among men.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You do not have any pre-trib rapture verses, no one has.
What did the Apostle John write for you to know?
Please read Apostle John's First Epistle = 1 John
Do you think that the entire historical true Christian Church for 17 centuries, and the giants of the faith therein without whom there would be no true Christian Church today, did not appeal to the Bible and its wordings?
If my personal studies and interpretations agree with those of the entire historical true Christian Church for 17 centuries, but disagree with those of Darby/Scofield modernists, then the vast accumulated faith, vision, sacrifice, wisdom, discernment, and testimony of the former, which far exceeds that of the latter, compels my choice.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Let me point out this Marks. There is a gathering and a coming of the Lord prior to the day of Christ or Day of the Lord.
2 Thes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
It is the gathering from heaven and earth.
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
There are two raptures. The first rapture is the Church which will be before the seals are opened. PRETRIB. The second rapture is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman Israel, the 12 tribes across the earth, will be gathered from the earth. This happens immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.
The amazing this is most of these people that claim to be post trib are really post wrath and don't know it. How is that possible?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
There are no multiple gatherings of the Body of Christ.
If you and marks stop adding to God's word what HE did not say THEN you will SEE.
Matthew 4:4 - "But Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
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