One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[ewq1938]

You haven't provided anything but opinion that marked people will be in the millennium.

No, I have scripture that supports the idea. It is your view that they can't be that is unsupported.

He will rule over the nations with a rod of iron, not people who take the mark that assertion makes absolutely no sense and is too ludicrous to need a defense.

You have only your opinion, nothing else.

 

[teamventure]

No, I have scripture that supports the idea. It is your view that they can't be that is unsupported.

You have only your opinion, nothing else.

Rev tells us that those who take the mark will be damned. If those who take the mark went into the 1,000 year reign it would be mentioned in Revelation which it is not. Not even the old testament passages you gave describe those taking the mark going into the kingdom just that he will rule over his enemies which isn't the same assertion.
You have nothing scriptural to stand on.

 

[jeffweeder]

You haven't provided anything but opinion that marked people will be in the millennium.

If there are no marked people in the millennium, then why have a millennium?
Does Jesus rule over the saved nations when he comes for Just 1000 years.?
We remain with him forever and forever, yes?

The millennium has numbers like the sand of the sea that are clearly not in the book of life.

All those not in the book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD have booked their place for eternal separation from his presence as 2 thess 1 teaches.

Revelation 13:8
All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].

1. Revelation 20:12
   And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged according to what they had done as written in the books [that is, everything done while on earth].
   
   
2. Revelation 20:15
   And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire.

Clearly a future 1000 reign over these people is pointless as they are destined to drink the wrath of God undiluted for having this mark.
As is clearly stated in 2 Thess 1 they are eternally separated on the day those without the mark are glorified in him.


Rev 14
“Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ).

11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is [encouragement for] the steadfast endurance of the saints (God’s people), those who habitually keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus.

13 Then I heard [the distinct words of] a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes, [blessed indeed],” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest and have relief from their labors, for their deeds do follow them.”

 

[jeffweeder]

No, I have scripture that supports the idea. It is your view that they can't be that is unsupported.

Why on earth did you not post it?

You have only your opinion, nothing else.

You are looking at yourself in the mirror Lol

 

[teamventure]

Why on earth did you not post it?

You are looking at yourself in the mirror Lol

Indeed. It's so clear he's projecting his lack of scriptural support on other people.

 

[ewq1938]

Why on earth did you not post it?

I have, many times.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev tells us that those who take the mark will be damned.

And it does not say they won't be in the Millennium. You have offered nothing in support of your opinion while I have for mine.

 

[ewq1938]

Indeed. It's so clear he's projecting his lack of scriptural support on other people.

I have provided scripture, you have not. Thus, your view is not scriptural but only opinion.

 

[jeffweeder]

I have, many times.

What was it?

 

[ewq1938]

What was it?

Post 95 and 99 are discussions about it.

 

[marks]

They are enemies and Christ rules in the midst of them. They will go to the LOF but that is AFTER the Millennium ends.

You haven't provided anything but opinion why marked people won't be in the Millennium where Christ rules his enemies with a rod of iron. "willing servants" is also not from the bible about those being ruled over. The rod forces temporary obedience.

This is an interesting post!

I've long thought that no one who has received the mark will survive Jesus' return and subsequent judgment, but as I'm thinking about it, while I can think of a number of places that suggest this to me, none so far that come right out and say so.

Can you point me to Scripture to say that those with the mark will survive into the millennium?

Much love!

 

[teamventure]

This is an interesting post!

I've long thought that no one who has received the mark will survive Jesus' return and subsequent judgment, but as I'm thinking about it, while I can think of a number of places that suggest this to me, none so far that come right out and say so.

Can you point me to Scripture to say that those with the mark will survive into the millennium?

Much love!

It's not in the scriptures he's been quoting, only in someone's false enterpretation.

 

[marks]

It's not in the scriptures he's been quoting, only in someone's false enterpretation.

I'm interested in looking. I can't think of a place, but I'll here what he has on that.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

No, the worst part of the Great Tribulation is the 7 bowls of wrath, even though that might only be up to 75 days, it's still mid-trib/ pre-wrath.

That sounds confused, because the Vials are about God's wrath against the beast and its servants during the great tribulation period. And the final 7th Vial is God's cup of wrath poured out on the very last day of this world, ending it. So the "mid-trib/pre-wrath" moniker doesn't make sense.

 

[Davy]

Thank you for proving my point. Those scriptures put the sheep and goat judgements right there with the second coming.

That's only about a 'separation' type judgment, NOT the later Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 which is ONLY AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect of the 1st resurrection.

Thus your argument has gone nowhere but has stayed in the dung heap.

 

[teamventure]

That's only about a 'separation' type judgment, NOT the later Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 which is ONLY AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect of the 1st resurrection.

Thus your argument has gone nowhere but has stayed in the dung heap.

I wasn't implying that it is the GWT judgement. I was pointing out that the sheep and goat seperation judgement goes with the second coming proving my point that only one of those two groups enter the 1,000 year kingdom.

 

[ewq1938]

I wasn't implying that it is the GWT judgement. I was pointing out that the sheep and goat seperation judgement goes with the second coming

That doesn't happen at the second coming. It happens long after it, at the GWTJ which is not held upon the Earth.

Only the two beasts are cast into fire at the second coming, Rev 19. The rest of the unsaved are ruled over also written in Rev 18. The unsaved are not judged and thrown into fire until after the Millennium, after the little season rebellion, after satan is cast into the LOF and after the GWTJ which is the proper timeframe for the goats being judged and sent to the fire.

 

[rwb]

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 NIV

Though the NIV makes it difficult to see, this verse tells us these martyred saints are now living (spirit) souls in heaven after physical death because during their lifetimes they lived and reigned with Christ. John equates their lifetimes to a thousand years of time on this earth.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This verse does not say these saints will physically come to life again to live and reign with Christ for ONE thousand years. They would not be alive in heaven after physical death if they had not first lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

Because every time the earth has been judged, God has renovated it. He has the ability being God to do so.
Ammennialism is the furthest fron the truth.

What passages and verses do you use to prove this assumption? There is only one time throughout redemptive history where God brought judgment upon the whole earth. That was in the days of Noah when the whole earth was flooded by water, and every living, breathing creature upon the earth died. The earth then was not renovated, because if it had been made new again as it shall be, there would have been no more death or dying. After the flood waters abated, God restored life to THIS earth through the living, breathing creatures that were saved from the waters by the ark.

Do you even know the doctrines taught in Amil? Or are you simply assuming based on what you've heard or been taught?

 

[Timtofly]

It is not implied in the verse you quoted.

Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Barnes:

Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies - Set up thy power over them, and reign in them. This is a commission to set up a kingdom “in the very midst” of those who were his enemies; in the hearts of those who had been and were rebellious. His kingdom is set up not by destroying them, but by “subduing” them so that they become his willing servants.


Sounds like the Millennium to me, where many of the people could be marked. When that rule ends, the marked ones will do the bidding of satan who will be released to gather them into an army.


So, being marked does not forbid someone from being ruled by a rod of iron for a thousand years.

You missed the point were. Jesus changes the status of the sheep and wheat from being enemies to being those who rule with Christ during the Millennium. They no longer walk in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They walk in the newness of God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That process does not take a thousand years. That process is the Great Tribulation while Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is sitting in the midst of His enemies. But you deny that very verse by denying that Jesus and the angels come to earth at the 6th Seal. Jesus is on the earth for the final harvest as the rod out of Zion. Jesus and the 144k wait on Zion during Satan's 42 months after the final harvest. They don't co-reign with Satan.