One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[L.A.M.B.]

Salvation only through Jesus, then the walk of discipleship in the Spirit is the order.

An earthly life yielded and following God, faithfully by his word, either ends in death or his second coming.
Judgement of the righteous before Christ, then the 1,00 year reign.

Last the GWT judgement of all who rejected the call of God, served Satan and died in their sin of unbelief will receive their punishment in the LOF.

God then sets up his kingdom, which will know no end, there will never be another evil, sin nor temptation !

Even so, come Lord Jesus, today !

 

[teamventure]

That's just it, Revelation 22:14-15 tells you the wicked are still outside the gates of the holy city during the time of Christ's thousand years reign. And in that Scripture is revealed the Tree of Life inside the gates, and those who have right to it at that time, and that is NOT the new heavens and new earth time yet. Ezekiel 47 showed you the return of God's River of the waters of life, and the Tree of life, for the time same time when God's House is established LITERALLY ON EARTH, when Jesus returns. Zechariah 6 even reveals Christ will build the future millennial temple. The deceived Jews today think that also about Messiah, but the Messiah that is coming to them first at the end of this present world will be a false-Messiah, the Antichrist. Thus their 3rd temple they plan to build for this present world will NOT be God's House of Ezekiel 40 thru 47.

Wrong, the unsaved will go to eternal punishment as described in Matt 25 the sheep and the goat judgement.

 

[teamventure]

You aren't basing that opinion on scripture though. Rev 11 the 7th trump sounds and all kingdoms become Christ's and guess what? Huge numbers of marked people are in those kingdoms that now belong to Christ. Your logic is unsound.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You are ignoring scripture as recorded in Rev 14

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 14:9‭-‬11 NIV

 

[teamventure]

Because the notion of "most flesh not surviving" is not scriptural.

At least I stick to what is in scripture, not unscriptural nonsense.

You are the one ignoring scripture.
I have already provided the passages in Rev where:
1/4 of the world dies
1/3 of what's left dies
& in Matt 24 Jesus says no flesh would survive if those days were not cut short.

Where is your scriptural evidence that contradicts that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, the holy city exists on earth during... Christ's "thousand years" reign. That's what the "camp of the saints" is per Rev.20:

Rev 20:9
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

That's quite an interesting question. My thought is that the "camp of the saints" and the "holy city" must represent a center of Christianity in Jerusalem during the Millennium. Why the saints should congregate there, instead of, say, New York or London, I don't know? The focus seems to still be on Israel, even though the saints in the NT are world-wide.

But I don't think we can confuse this Jerusalem with the New Jerusalem which will come down out of heaven after the Millennium. That city is enormous, and encompasses the entire Middle East. I'm sure there are a variety of views on this--everything from the Millennium is now to the New Jerusalem is the Millennium. :)

 

[ewq1938]

You are the one ignoring scripture.
I have already provided the passages in Rev where:
1/4 of the world dies

I don't see that written.

1/3 of what's left dies

That isn't most, and many commentators disagree it's meant to be taken literally.

& in Matt 24 Jesus says no flesh would survive if those days were not cut short.

No flesh of the saints, not no human flesh at all. The days will be shorter anyways so this is not evidence of most flesh/people being killed.

 

[teamventure]

I don't see that written.

That isn't most, and many commentators disagree it's meant to be taken literally.

No flesh of the saints, not no human flesh at all. The days will be shorter anyways so this is not evidence of most flesh/people being killed.

It is written and implied in the four horsemen of Rev.
If the dying of the 1/3 is not literal, then could you tell me a brief explanation?
And yet, you subscribe to the idea that unsaved people who take the mark of the beast will be allowed in the 1,000 year kingdom.

Rev 13:16,17. And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[ewq1938]

It is written and implied in the four horsemen of Rev.

But I don't see anything about 1/4 of human population being killed.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

There is this but this is 1/4th of the Earth not specifically over 1/4 of all humans since parts of the Earth are less populated plus it doesn't say all humans in this part of the Earth will all be killed. I see it as lots of death in 1/4th of the Earth.

If the dying of the 1/3 is not literal, then could you tell me a brief explanation?

It's ok if it is literal because it's still not most. If non-literal, the basic argument is that it's simply a non-literal over-exaggeration.

And yet, you subscribe to the idea that unsaved people who take the mark of the beast will be allowed in the 1,000 year kingdom.

There is nothing in the bible forbidding it. The Millennium is not heaven or new Jerusalem or on the new Earth. It's simply the current Earth ruled by Christ and his saints. Wouldn't sinners, even the greatest sinners make sense to be there? There is a great rebellion when the 1000 years ends. Makes sense if many of those people had the mark. Another prophecy says Christ will rule in the midst of his enemies. Make any more sense now?

Rev 13:16,17. And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

If all is taken hyperliterally than the raptured survivors would have the mark so why rapture them? Why make them immortal if they are marked? Obviously "all" means all kinds of people from leaders down to the lowest part of society. The same language is used for the army killed at Armageddon yet the entire human population is not gathered at the small valley where Armageddon takes place.

 

[Davy]

Wrong, the unsaved will go to eternal punishment as described in Matt 25 the sheep and the goat judgement.

The Matthew 25 Scripture about the sheep and the goats does NOT give the amount of detailed events as Revelation 20 does. So trying to use Matthew 25 to determine what Revelation 20-22 is about is BACKWARDS THINKING.

And it's a little late in the day to just omit Books like Christ's Revelation to His faithful servants.

 

[Timtofly]

There is this but this is 1/4th of the Earth not specifically over 1/4 of all humans since parts of the Earth are less populated plus it doesn't say all humans in this part of the Earth will all be killed. I see it as lots of death in 1/4th of the Earth.

Since you have no idea which 25 percent, then all humans could be killed as they only take up:

Humans use approximately 14.5 percent of the total surface of the planet. As 71 percent of the Earth is water, only 29 percent of the Earth's surface is land.

So only 4 percent of the land remains? Why is God removing only the water? If God destroyed the 14 percent of the land used, then that means another 11 percent would be either unused land or water.

So is it only 2 billion killed, or everyone killed in your interpretation?

Makes sense if many of those people had the mark.

That would mean they rebelled prior to the Millennium. What is the point of being in constant rebellion the whole time? May as well not even lock Satan up as they are all rebels the whole time any way.

The rebels are only those last few generations out of a possible 20 to 30 generations in 1,000 years. Those last few generations having the biggest population explosion. Those under 100 years of age born after 900 years. So not your original generation. Only the billions of the last few generations. People living at the edges or four corners, those the farthest removed from Jerusalem, which is in the center of humanity. They have to march across the breadth of the earth to reach Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

The Matthew 25 Scripture about the sheep and the goats does NOT give the amount of detailed events as Revelation 20 does. So trying to use Matthew 25 to determine what Revelation 20-22 is about is BACKWARDS THINKING.

And it's a little late in the day to just omit Books like Christ's Revelation to His faithful servants.

Then stop posting that Matthew 25 happens on the last day. It doesn't.

That is your mistake, not the fault of other posters.

 

[teamventure]

But I don't see anything about 1/4 of human population being killed.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

There is this but this is 1/4th of the Earth not specifically over 1/4 of all humans since parts of the Earth are less populated plus it doesn't say all humans in this part of the Earth will all be killed. I see it as lots of death in 1/4th of the Earth.

It's ok if it is literal because it's still not most. If non-literal, the basic argument is that it's simply a non-literal over-exaggeration.

There is nothing in the bible forbidding it. The Millennium is not heaven or new Jerusalem or on the new Earth. It's simply the current Earth ruled by Christ and his saints. Wouldn't sinners, even the greatest sinners make sense to be there? There is a great rebellion when the 1000 years ends. Makes sense if many of those people had the mark. Another prophecy says Christ will rule in the midst of his enemies. Make any more sense now?

If all is taken hyperliterally than the raptured survivors would have the mark so why rapture them? Why make them immortal if they are marked? Obviously "all" means all kinds of people from leaders down to the lowest part of society. The same language is used for the army killed at Armageddon yet the entire human population is not gathered at the small valley where Armageddon takes place.

With sword, hunger, and death obviously refers to humans being killed.

I understand there are non-literal passages in the Bible but there are no exaggerations

Yes, all meaning every part of society, but that also means most people. You can't deny that most people will have the mark.

 

[teamventure]

The Matthew 25 Scripture about the sheep and the goats does NOT give the amount of detailed events as Revelation 20 does. So trying to use Matthew 25 to determine what Revelation 20-22 is about is BACKWARDS THINKING.

And it's a little late in the day to just omit Books like Christ's Revelation to His faithful servants.

I'm not omitting anything.
But where would you apply the sheep and goats judgement? That seems to be where it fits.

 

[teamventure]

But I don't see anything about 1/4 of human population being killed.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

There is this but this is 1/4th of the Earth not specifically over 1/4 of all humans since parts of the Earth are less populated plus it doesn't say all humans in this part of the Earth will all be killed. I see it as lots of death in 1/4th of the Earth.




It's ok if it is literal because it's still not most. If non-literal, the basic argument is that it's simply a non-literal over-exaggeration.





There is nothing in the bible forbidding it. The Millennium is not heaven or new Jerusalem or on the new Earth. It's simply the current Earth ruled by Christ and his saints. Wouldn't sinners, even the greatest sinners make sense to be there? There is a great rebellion when the 1000 years ends. Makes sense if many of those people had the mark. Another prophecy says Christ will rule in the midst of his enemies. Make any more sense now?





If all is taken hyperliterally than the raptured survivors would have the mark so why rapture them? Why make them immortal if they are marked? Obviously "all" means all kinds of people from leaders down to the lowest part of society. The same language is used for the army killed at Armageddon yet the entire human population is not gathered at the small valley where Armageddon takes place.

It is implied here that those who take the mark are not allowed in the 1,000 year reign.
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 NIV

 

[ewq1938]

It is implied here that those who take the mark are not allowed in the 1,000 year reign.

It is not implied in the verse you quoted.

Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Barnes:

Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies - Set up thy power over them, and reign in them. This is a commission to set up a kingdom “in the very midst” of those who were his enemies; in the hearts of those who had been and were rebellious. His kingdom is set up not by destroying them, but by “subduing” them so that they become his willing servants.


Sounds like the Millennium to me, where many of the people could be marked. When that rule ends, the marked ones will do the bidding of satan who will be released to gather them into an army.


So, being marked does not forbid someone from being ruled by a rod of iron for a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

With sword, hunger, and death obviously refers to humans being killed.

It does but it doesn't say all of the 4th of the world will be killed.

I understand there are non-literal passages in the Bible but there are no exaggerations

Sure there are.

Yes, all meaning every part of society, but that also means most people. You can't deny that most people will have the mark.

Most sure but not every single person.

 

[teamventure]

Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies - Set up thy power over them, and reign in them. This is a commission to set up a kingdom “in the very midst” of those who were his enemies; in the hearts of those who had been and were rebellious. His kingdom is set up not by destroying them, but by “subduing” them so that they become his willing servants.

So, being marked does not forbid someone from being ruled by a rod of iron for a thousand years.

This is the result of being marked:

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 14:9‭-‬11 NIV

Obviously doesn't sound like they will be entering the 1,000 year kingdom.

 

[teamventure]

Then stop posting that Matthew 25 happens on the last day. It doesn't.

That is your mistake, not the fault of other posters.

Thank you. I appreciate you man.

 

[ewq1938]

This is the result of being marked:

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 14:9‭-‬11 NIV

Obviously doesn't sound like they will be entering the 1,000 year kingdom.

That is the result, on the last day before the eternity. That has nothing to do with being in the Millennium which is for people on this same old Earth. There is nothing in the bible that forbids people with the mark from being ruled over by a rod of iron. It's rebellious people that such a rod is needed! Ruled by the beast, then ruled by Christ...same people.

You totally avoided "Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

Nothing to say about that eh?

 

[rwb]

That is at his second coming and before the millenium. Or do you not believe in the millenial kingdom?

Can you prove from the Scriptures there will be a millennial kingdom on this earth after Christ comes again? If you cannot prove this assumption, perhaps you need to re-think "a thousand years" of Rev 20???