One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[teamventure]

You know not what you speak of! If Amil is false, you should be able to prove it with Scripture. Show us these "grand explanation that the Scripture doesn't imply"? If you cannot prove what you assume then you cannot be trusted.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Revelation 12:5 NIV

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 NIV

It is amil that cannot be trusted.

 

[teamventure]

The only people who are raptured are Believers in Christ = Saints/Elect

That leaves many people on earth post-trib = Zechariah chapter 14

The MOST Important reason to believe post-trib' is that JESUS said His Coming is Post-Trib = Matthew ch24

The second most important reason is that the Apostle Paul said JESUS Coming is Post-Trib = 1st & 2nd Thess and 1 Cor ch15

The third most important reason is that the Apostle John said JESUS Coming is Post-Trib = 1 John

The fourth most important reason is that the OT Prophet Daniel said JESUS Second Coming is Post-Trib = ch9 , ch12

The fifth most important reason is that Genesis and the OT Prophets said that JESUS Second Coming is Post-Trib.

And never forget this = 'pre-trib' rapture never came out of the Mouth of God = Matthew 4:4

Copy and paste the scriptures unless you're afraid they don't apply.

 

[David in NJ]

Copy and paste the scriptures unless you're afraid they don't apply.

Scripture designations have been posted for you = Post 179

Are you unable to look them up?

Use biblehub.com

 

[David in NJ]

Copy and paste the scriptures unless you're afraid they don't apply.

Please post if you think you are able to find any scripture declaring:

a.) Jesus will pre-trib rapture His Elect/Bride/Saints/Church BEFORE the Antichrist/WickedOne/Son of Perdition

b.) the Bride of Christ/Church/Saints/Elect will NOT go thru Tribulations or even the Great Tribulation

c.) Christ will leave Heaven BEFORE the revealing of the "wicked one/Antichrist".

 

[teamventure]

Scripture designations have been posted for you = Post 179

Are you unable to look them up?

Use biblehub.com

Are you unable to post the scriptures and not just the references?

 

[teamventure]

Please post if you think you are able to find any scripture declaring:

a.) Jesus will pre-trib rapture His Elect/Bride/Saints/Church BEFORE the Antichrist/WickedOne/Son of Perdition

b.) the Bride of Christ/Church/Saints/Elect will NOT go thru Tribulations or even the Great Tribulation

c.) Christ will leave Heaven BEFORE the revealing of the "wicked one/Antichrist".

Didn't you read the OP

arguments about the pre-trib rapture aside, there is one big reason why the rapture can not be post-trib.

 

[rwb]

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Revelation 12:5 NIV

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 NIV

It is amil that cannot be trusted.

How has this proven Amil is false?

Christ was caught up to God in heaven after His cross & resurrection, where He received dominion, glory and a kingdom that ALL people and languages should serve Him. His dominion is everlasting, and shall never pass away, and His kingdom shall never be destroyed. Therefore, it appears that Christ has been ruling from heaven over His people in all nations with a rod of iron since His ascension to heaven.

Revelation 12:5 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[teamventure]

You have an argument of why we shouldn't believe Jesus' prophecies in the way He gave them.

I know the Great White Throne Judgment does not happen on the the earth, while the judgment of the nations does.

This is a demonstration of my post:

You are doing exactly what I'm talking about here. You've concluded the judgment of the nations is the same as the GWTJ, and so you disbelieve the statements Jesus gave in His prophecy, thinking they should be understood to be saying something different than what Jesus said.

Much love!

Great post thank you Marks!

 

[teamventure]

How has this proven Amil is false?

Christ was caught up to God in heaven after His cross & resurrection, where He received dominion, glory and a kingdom that ALL people and languages should serve Him. His dominion is everlasting, and shall never pass away, and His kingdom shall never be destroyed. Therefore, it appears that Christ has been ruling from heaven over His people in all nations with a rod of iron since His ascension to heaven.

Revelation 12:5 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

A better question is how does all that prove amil true?

 

[rwb]

A better question is how does all that prove amil true?

I'm not arguing for Amil doctrine! Simply showing you what the Scripture says. You are the one who says Amil is not true, so it is incumbent upon you to prove what you allege. So far you have not.

 

[teamventure]

I'm not arguing for Amil doctrine! Simply showing you what the Scripture says. You are the one who says Amil is not true, so it is incumbent upon you to prove what you allege. So far you have not.

I'm not the one who brought amil up and I've already proved it false with two passages in post #181

 

[teamventure]

I'm not arguing for Amil doctrine! Simply showing you what the Scripture says.

Amil denies what the scriptures say.
I was replying to someone who said that premillenial view was a false doctrine, if it is, amil is sure not the answer.

 

[jeffweeder]

You're the one who brought amil up and I've already proved it false with two passages in post #181

Hey teamventure.
I have pushed the amill envelope in my responses to you earlier in this thread. Why are you not willing to discuss those scriptures that annihilate premill and promote Amill? You left all those posts and scriptures unaddressed. If you really want to know the truth lets reconnect and discuss. I have enjoyed my time discussing with you thus far.
God bless ya

 

[teamventure]

Hey teamventure.
I have pushed the amill envelope in my responses to you earlier in this thread. Why are you not willing to discuss those scriptures that annihilate premill and promote Amill? You left all those posts and scriptures unaddressed. If you really want to know the truth lets reconnect and discuss. I have enjoyed my time discussing with you thus far.
God bless ya

You haven't posted the scriptures just their references.
Please post the scriptures so I can reply to them.

 

[rwb]

I'm not the one who brought amil up and I've already proved it false with two passages in post #181

I've already responded to your post 181 in 187. Why not respond to my reply? You haven't shown Amil is not true, you simply posted verses without really explaining how you believe they prove Amil false???

 

[rwb]

Amil denies what the scriptures say.
I was replying to someone who said that premillenial view was a false doctrine, if it is, amil is sure not the answer.

Just because you assume Amil is false doctrine, why should I believe what you cannot biblically prove? Premil forces contradictions into Scripture, and that proves Premil is indeed unbiblical.

 

[teamventure]

I've already responded to your post 181 in 187. Why not respond to my reply? You haven't shown Amil is not true, you simply posted verses without really explaining how you believe they prove Amil false???

You posted verses in 187 without explaining how they prove amil true.

 

[teamventure]

Just because you assume Amil is false doctrine, why should I believe what you cannot biblically prove? Premil forces contradictions into Scripture, and that proves Premil is indeed unbiblical.

Just because you assume Premil is a false doctrine, why should I believe what you cannot biblically prove? Amil forces contradictions into Scripture, and that proves Amil is indeed unbiblical.

 

[rwb]

You posted verses in 187 without explaining how they prove amil true.

As I've already explained, I wasn't proving or disproving Amil. I simply quoted Scripture that shows Christ is the man child, Son of God caught up to heaven, and when. Because you seemed to think these verses in some way prove Amil is false without explaining how they prove what you have assumed. I don't have to prove Amil is true, the doctrine is proven through the Scriptures without forcing contradiction into the Word of God. Unlike premil that can be shown to contradict biblical truth.

 

[jeffweeder]

You haven't posted the scriptures just their references.
Please post the scriptures so I can reply to them.

Go to page 3 for the context of the following quotes

Hi Marks

If?
The NT seems to make it clear - ,that is what is going to happen...,

2Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


Those Raptured are glorified and those raptured are all those who have believed the testimony of the Gospel.


As you can see above no natural flesh will survive. Today is the day of salvation and it ends when the Gospel has been preached in the whole world. The second coming ends "today" and tomorrow starts the NHNE as other NT scriptures indicate...,

Matt 25
The second coming

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



A sinless curse free earth was prepared at the foundation of the world. So this is clearly speaking of the NHNE at his second coming.


Matt 25 cont'

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);


This is speaking of the final judgement and the everlasting punishment spoken of above in 2thess 1.


Nobody remains mortal upon the Churches glorification.

God bless

They are identified as those who believe the testimony of the Gospel...,

and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Paul includes himself in this group in 2 thess 1...,

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,



2Tim 4 speaks of the same...,

8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

Scripture and verse.

Tribulation saints have to be Christian.


Again, I ask what scriptures you are referring to support your claims?
2thess 1 is clear that no flesh remains when the Church is glorified. They experience eternal separation from God at the second coming.


Yes true.
Those who have the mark will have their share in the Eternal punishment at the second coming. Again, only the righteous remain post second coming.

Rev 14
“Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is [encouragement for] the steadfast endurance of the saints (God’s people), those who habitually keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus.