It Must Be Absolutely Terrifying To Be A Post-Tribulation Believer

[rebuilder 454]

One means of escape is to perish, as in bodily die but still be alive spiritually, you still don't see that as a viable option to not see evil days or a multitude of evil days yet to come.
It is however the scripture.

"The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;"

you have to reconcile scripture.
Jesus told his disciples , " not a hair on your heads shall be harmed"
All of them but John died being murdered violently by satan
IOW verses do not void out other verses.
I have never seen a postribber reconcile verses.
Never.
If Honesty is removed, who is honoring Gods word?

 

[Scott Downey]

Read Revelation 14
Jesus comes with a sickle in his hand sitting on a cloud , never touches earth, and that is A rapture right before the wrath of God so the second coming on white horses and the Rapture of the Dead in Christ is not Revelation 14

so there are three comings right there

the first two he doesn't touch Earth but the last one he comes with his Saints on white horses only pre-trib rapture fits.

Your reading this out of context, look at the immediate prior verses referring to the death of the saints.
That first sickle gathers the saints in death to Christ in Heaven.
The second sickle the wicked to wrath.

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12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

Footnotes​

 

[rebuilder 454]

One means of escape is to perish, as in bodily die but still be alive spiritually, you still don't see that as a viable option to not see evil days or a multitude of evil days yet to come.
It is however the scripture, and highly accurate in the history of the world.

"The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;"

Both sides of the debate embrace that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your reading this out of context, look at the immediate prior verses referring to the death of the saints.
That first sickle gathers the saints in death to Christ in Heaven.
The second sickle the wicked to wrath.

====================================================================
12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

Footnotes​

Like i said, you have to embrace scripture and you have to embrace context, so you see that the 144,000 at the start of the chapter are in heaven they have been harvested

the Bible says they are first fruits

there's a reason why they are first fruits

if you look at their description, they are ethnic Jews

they're Messianic Jews
they follow Jesus
so these ethnic Jews are a first fruits of the main Harvest

the main harvest in Revelation 14 is Jewish that's why they're connected to grapes
that's the summer Harvest
that's the Fruit Harvest that's not either grain Harvest

the grain Harvest is the church


only pre-trib Rapture fits but you have to change all of that Revelation 14 to make it say something else

 

[rebuilder 454]

If you make the gt into ANYTHING but JACOBS TROUBLE...you will never see Gods purpose.
The gt is the time of gentiles completed and the time or harvest of the Jews begining.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Only the worthy ones are taken in the rapture. We see this vividly Illustrated and declared in Matthew 25, in another gospel, and in Revelation the seven letters to the seven churches.
So we see this in Scripture confirmed three different places. The Rapture, those taken, is the bride of Christ .
it is the worthy ones, it's not the entire church.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Could a postribber unpack and reconcile the prejudgement removal of Lot?
The prejudgement dynamic of Noah?
The prejudgement removal to egypt of Jesus?
None of them removed postrib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I have yet to see a postribber unpack rev 14.
They change components.
Change verses.
Rev 14 destroys completely all positions except pretrib rapture.
Rev 14
The eschatological nuke.

 

[Scott Downey]

Like i said, you have to embrace scripture and you have to embrace context, so you see that the 144,000 at the start of the chapter are in heaven they have been harvested

the Bible says they are first fruits

there's a reason why they are first fruits

if you look at their description, they are ethnic Jews

they're Messianic Jews
they follow Jesus
so these ethnic Jews are a first fruits of the main Harvest

the main harvest in Revelation 14 is Jewish that's why they're connected to grapes
that's the summer Harvest
that's the Fruit Harvest that's not either grain Harvest

the grain Harvest is the church


only pre-trib Rapture fits but you have to change all of that Revelation 14 to make it say something else

"the main harvest in Revelation 14 is Jewish that's why they're connected to grapes"

The grape harvest is doomed to wrath of God, they cannot be messianic Jewry. You know in Ephesians it says between jew and gentile there is no division if they are saved, the dividing wall. the enmity is broken down, they are all of one now.
-----------------------------------
Ephesians 2
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
=============================
As far as the first sickle, the saints God has given into the hands of Satan for a season of time, many will be killed.
God did that, and it is why it is God's sickle reaping the harvest of the earth, they are killed by the beast , they were given into the hands of the little horn by God to be killed, until the time came for them to inherit the earth.

Daniel 7

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 , the people of God will inherit the earth
‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

 

[ewq1938]

Nope
It clearly says all take the mark.
There is no running from cave to cave to escape the AC.
All believers are martyred.

Not all which means not all take the mark so not all will be killed.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

The bible says every man, woman, and child takes the mark.
To refuse is to die.

Except that does not come from the bible.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

 

[ewq1938]

Read Revelation 14
Jesus comes with a sickle in his hand sitting on a cloud , never touches earth, and that is A rapture right before the wrath of God so the second coming on white horses and the Rapture of the Dead in Christ is not Revelation 14

so there are three comings right there

There isn't three comings there or anywhere. The bible speaks of one second coming. Pretrib is unscriptural and invents unscriptural things like multiple comings.

 

[Timtofly]

One means of escape is to perish, as in bodily die but still be alive spiritually, you still don't see that as a viable option to not see evil days or a multitude of evil days yet to come.
It is however the scripture, and highly accurate in the history of the world.

"The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;"

So you agree the church leaves at the 5th Seal, but some can "join up later", in case they change their minds? As long as they physically die?

The great tribulation mentioned in Revelation 7 started at Pentecost. Peter was cast into prison. Stephen was stoned to death. Most all of the disciples were martyred for their faith. Certainly they all are included in that multitude in Revelation 7. Jesus promised them that many would be killed, not raptured. The rapture is for those still alive on the earth, not for those already in Paradise.

Revelation 7 is not about all those who would die in the Trumpets and Thunders. Revelation 7 shows us they are all accounted for in Paradise, before the 7th Seal is even opened. They are the ones resting after putting on a robe of white at the 5th Seal. They are now waiting for the final harvest where Jesus and the angels are on earth gathering the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

Those in Paradise and the 144k are sealed. They cannot be removed from the Lamb's book of life after the 7th Seal is opened. Now Jesus is on the earth picking and choosing who is going to be removed and cast into the LOF. And who is going to enjoy the Day of the Lord ruling and reigning with Christ. Those riding white horses in Revelation 19 are those chosen during the Trumpets and Thunders to live on the earth.

Notice this sea of glass: Revelation 4:6


"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal."

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

These are those returning on white horses.

The church is still waiting in Paradise. Paradise is referred to as one end of the heavens to the other. In Paradise they are waiving palm branches and serving God day and night in the heavenly temple.

The sea of glass is being added to throughout the Trumpets and Thunders.

Those in Paradise are waiting for those being added to the sea of glass. Those on the sea of glass return in Revelation 19. Those in Paradise return after the NHNE in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21.

Those beheaded are not resurrected until after Armageddon and Satan is bound. They don't ride horses to the battle. They have a judgment after the fact, and given eternal life. They are not even with those redeemed on the sea of glass.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There isn't three comings there or anywhere. The bible speaks of one second coming. Pretrib is unscriptural and invents unscriptural things like multiple comings.

I have scripture.
Your declaration of rev 14 can not be true.
A simple read without CHANGES becomes your thorn.
Unpack it.
Show me

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

All sides of the debate embrace that.
The 3 comings are eternally canonized in the word of God.
That kills all but pretrib rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

I have scripture.
Your declaration of rev 14 can not be true.

You don't have scripture. You have various strawman fallacies. Rev 14 is support of Post-trib where teh rsaopture takes place before teh wrath of God happens. Other scripture place the rapture after the end of the great tribulation, just prior to the pouring of the vials of the wrath of God. A Pre-trib rapture is not found in scripture, not one time. Pre-trib believes the apostasia is the rapture when it is the Apostasy. Anyone wanting to paticipate in the great "Departure" will be able to. The Church will watch them leave.

 

[David in NJ]

If you make the gt into ANYTHING but JACOBS TROUBLE...you will never see Gods purpose.
The gt is the time of gentiles completed and the time or harvest of the Jews begining.

God's purpose for us is to believe His words and not add to them.

Romans ch11
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I do not desire, brethren, that you(@rebuilder 454) should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

 

[rebuilder 454]

"the main harvest in Revelation 14 is Jewish that's why they're connected to grapes"

The grape harvest is doomed to wrath of God, they cannot be messianic Jewry. You know in Ephesians it says between jew and gentile there is no division if they are saved, the dividing wall. the enmity is broken down, they are all of one now.
-----------------------------------
Ephesians 2
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
=============================
As far as the first sickle, the saints God has given into the hands of Satan for a season of time, many will be killed.
God did that, and it is why it is God's sickle reaping the harvest of the earth, they are killed by the beast , they were given into the hands of the little horn by God to be killed, until the time came for them to inherit the earth.

Daniel 7

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 , the people of God will inherit the earth
‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Nope
A little after the main harvest of jews by Jesus with a sickle in rev 14 is the harvest to destruction .
A prewrath harvest that CAN NOT be the pretrib rapture or the postwrath coming on white horses.
IOW ,You need to change most every component of rev 14 to make it work with your assumptions.
Your starting place is wrong.
You say BEFORE investigation there can only be one coming.
Then the bible corrects you.
All i do is read and report.
Only pretrib fits and is so easy to defend.

 

[David in NJ]

All sides of the debate embrace that.
The 3 comings are eternally canonized in the word of God.
That kills all but pretrib rapture.

Post these supposed 3 comings.