A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[face2face]

You mean Wrangler who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Savior?

I think that is a slanderous comment Jack...you are being a devil to Wrangler - meaning you are falsely accusing him of believing something he does not.

You understand this?

 

[Jack]

Wow, the text must be difficult for them to interpret Jack.

tn Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (theos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. NET notes

Maybe you should use a verse which is not so heavily disputed?

It doesn't look good if you favor a certain translation to uphold the teachings of men.

F2F

Every verse I quoted says God called His Son God!

 

[Jack]

I think that is a slanderous comment Jack...you are being a devil to Wrangler - meaning you are falsely accusing him of believing something he does not.

You understand this?

Ask Wrangler if Jesus is the Savior.

 

[face2face]

Every verse I quoted says God called His Son God!

So how do you interpret v9?

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

How can Jesus love righteousness if he is God?
How can God anoint God?
How can God have companions?
How can God have a God?
"therefore God, your God" must mean Christ is not the Eternal Son!

Since the Father is the God of Jesus, then clearly Jesus is not himself "Very God".

You should look up John 20:17 also just in case you want to twist verse 9 as well!

I'm thinking you wont answer those above questions!

F2F

"Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me,* for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God"

 

[face2face]

@Jack just remember Jack, you started this conversation, so if it turns a little ugly the weight of responsibility falls on you.

 

[Jack]

So how do you interpret v9?

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

How can Jesus love righteousness if he is God?
How can God anoint God?
How can God have companions?
How can God have a God?
"therefore God, your God" must mean Christ is not the Eternal Son!

Since the Father is the God of Jesus, then clearly Jesus is not himself "Very God".

You should look up John 20:17 also just in case you want to twist verse 9 as well!

I'm thinking you wont answer those above questions!

F2F

"Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me,* for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God"

You want me to explain the infinite God of creation? It's much easier to just believe what He said. He called His Son "God".

 

[Jack]

@Jack just remember Jack, you started this conversation, so if it turns a little ugly the weight of responsibility falls on you.

What is "ugly" is when JW's try to rewrite our Bible and they don't even believe their own NWT.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When a believer does this, they are showing they have no foundation - to give credit to Jane, at least she tried to work it into the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre records, but it was miserable, so much so, she placed me on ignore! There are multiple threads between us dealing with this false doctrine and in the end she couldnt argue with the correct interpratation but fell on her sword and said its what God has revealed to her community.

For the benefit of those who read these exchanges, there comes a time to give up on the one who wants to remain ignorant…..very wrapped up in their own interpretation of scripture. Who else believes as you do F2F? Who are your brotherhood?

Evidence

For the fact that the devil exists?……or that Jesus contended with a real entity since he was born in sinless flesh?…..or that Jesus was born from God and not Adam?….. Are you serious? What Christian has doubts about any of those things? They are clearly stated in the scriptures. (John 8:23; Hebrews 4:15; John 3:16)
Why would Jesus say that he was “from the realms above” and ”from heaven” if he was merely a son of Adam? Do you understand how redemption works I am wondering and also if God created the human race with defects?

The reason its disrespectful is not due to the thing said but to your lack of understanding of how the devil was destroyed upon the Lords death.

The devil and his cronies continued to be very much alive upon the Lord’s death…..what was destroyed was the devil’s hold on God’s people. The fear of death no longer held them captive. Messiah had come, but it was not time for his rulership to begin until all things are subjected to him…..do you see all things subjected to him already? In case you hadn’t noticed, the world is in an awful mess as the last days unfold before our eyes. Things will continue to get worse until Jesus and his angels get rid of all evil at its source.

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—Heb 2:14

Sharing humanity is not sharing sin. His sinless body was created by God in order to be sacrificed in atonement for Adam’s sin. The scales of justice had to be balanced…..a perfect sinless life was lost for mankind descended from Adam, so a sinless life was offered in exchange for what Adam threw away. It’s not exactly rocket science.

What has the power of death?

No, “who“ has the power of death? Satan is a “who”….not a “what”.

Why does Paul personify sin ("power of him")?

Many things are personified in the Bible…..it doesn’t make them persons. The devil is personified but the scriptures reinforce the fact that satan is a real entity who was permitted to tempt the son of God.

Why did Jesus need to be in sin's flesh to allow God to remove sin's power? Romans 6:23 cmp Romans 8:1-3
How was sin's (devil) power broken on the cross? (take me to a verse!)

“Sin’s power” was not “broken on the cross” because sin has continued to plague humankind ever since their rebellion in Eden. So how was it that sin was dealt with back then at Christ’s death?
Jesus provided the means for mankind to be forgiven their sins, in spite of the fact that they were still “in sin”. Just like Israel had to offer blood sacrifices to atone for their sins every week, Christians have the blood of Christ shed in their behalf to atone until the rulership of God’s kingdom takes mankind back into a reconciliation with God. The barrier of sin was removed permanently.…not just temporarily as it was with Israel…...and Christ’s instructions were there to be followed until he ruled as king in that kingdom.

and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. Hebrews 2:15

How does satan hold people in slavery with fear of death ? For unbelievers it is the fear of life ending when they have no desire to die and leave loved ones or to have some accident or illness to cut their finite life short.……for “believers” who swallow satan’s first lie that, “you surely will not die”, it is the fear of the afterlife….a hell of eternal torment awaits those who get it wrong….neither of these ideas is what the Bible teaches.

So two assumptions are made 1. satan is a real person 2. who exists in an invisable spirit realm.

Yes to both. The Bible clearly talks about ”the adversary” who is an accuser. Your adversary at law is one who opposes you.
Since angels and God exist in an invisible realm and the Bible indicates that satan and those he has separated from God are angels, as well as humans, your story falls flat.

Revelation 12:7-12….This was to occur as the last days began when the institution of God’s kingdom over redeemed mankind was to begin….it began with the eviction of Satan and his demons….

“And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

This is not talking about a quality of evil in mankind. The original serpent is satan, a rebel spirit who was carried away by this own magnificence, challenging God’s sovereignty and desiring worship from the humans for himself.

Firstly, does Job 1:6 teach us this adversary is vicious and ruthless?

When you see what he was permitted to do to Job in the following verses….YES!
Satan told God to afflict Job, but in his righteousness he could not bring calamity upon such a faithful servant of his. In order to demonstrate this man’s unshakable faith, God allowed satan to afflict him in some very distressing ways, but in all that he was permitted to suffer, he put the worship of his God first, not aware of the source of his traumas, yet he still remained faithful through the whole ordeal. His example is in the scriptures because, as Jesus said “satan has demanded“ to have you men “to sift you as wheat”. (Like 22:31-32)
We are therefore all tested by satan so that we can prove ourselves faithful as Job did. Yet we know who is behind all that testing….Job did not.

One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them Job 1:6

Is there anywhere in that above sentence @Wrangler @Aunty Jane where these qualities can be established?

Are you serious? Where is this scene taking place? Angels are presenting themselves before God and satan came right along with them. Since Jesus and his angels battle satan and his angels, it is clear to me that the war in heaven resulted in satan and his cronies being confined to the earth, no longer permitted to access heaven…..evicted before their 1000 year prison term begins. (Rev 20:1-3)

 

[Wrangler]

Isn't Hebrews 1 in your Bible?

Yup. Is Hebrews 1 in your Bible? V5

5 For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.

Proves Jesus was created or more precisely, adopted "today." And as I said:

My son, sitting in the drivers seat O’ Wrangler, does not make my son me.

You are deliberatly confused OF and FROM to mean IS. It doesn't.

Why do some people use a single quote in their name, like O'Keefe?

Answer (1 of 2): O' is actually the anglicised version of Ó, which means "grandson (of)" in Irish. See Irish name for more details.

www.quora.com

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler

Why did the writers not translate "slanderers" as "devils" in 2 Timothy 3:3

I love your appeal to gnosticism.

I already gave you relevant verses about the devil in Scripture. Ignoring them and doubling down on your nonsense is on you. I'm out of this conversation.

 

[Wrangler]

Every verse I quoted says God called His Son God!

Untrue. Not a one says that. You are interpretting O' God to apply to the son when it applies to God's throne. It is the throne of God that the son sits on. Doesn't make him God any more than sitting in the directors chair makes someone a director.

 

[face2face]

For the benefit of those who read these exchanges, there comes a time to give up on the one who wants to remain ignorant

Don't worry Jane I have not given up on you yet.

…..very wrapped up in their own interpretation of scripture. Who else believes as you do F2F? Who are your brotherhood?

Still holding to that old chestnut I see...nothing has changed?

For the fact that the devil exists?……or that Jesus contended with a real entity since he was born in sinless flesh?

This should be good...fact is, many false accusers live and its probable you have been one in your life! I'm not sure what you mean by "sinless" flesh as sin is not in the flesh as a physical entity Jane...it takes place in the mind - hence Paul calling it the carnal mind in Romans 8:7 - Christ had the same mind though never gave it voice or action but crucified it on the tree.

…..or that Jesus was born from God and not Adam?….. Are you serious?

True enough, born of God... but came to be of a woman. Galatians 4:4 (rather obvious and not sure of your point!)

What Christian has doubts about any of those things? They are clearly stated in the scriptures. (John 8:23; Hebrews 4:15; John 3:16)

Are you talking about Paul's teaching on the second Adam? 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being The last Adam became....”

Love that word "became!"...carries so much meaning to those who understand the truth.

Maybe you don't even understand how God redeemed His Son? How Christ obtained enternal redemption for himself first!

The devil and his cronies continued to be very much alive upon the Lord’s death…..what was destroyed was the devil’s hold on God’s people. The fear of death no longer held them captive.

Well...your leaving the Bible now...its the Gospel according to Jane!

Messiah had come, but it was not time for his rulership to begin until all things are subjected to him…..do you see all things subjected to him already?

Bla bla bla...regurgitating your Sunday School lessons Jane? You know any time you try and provide details about your make belief agent of evil you know you have no basis, no Scripture to expound - its all-fantastical notions bumping around in your brain. Challenge the teaching for yourself Jane and go after truth, but first leave behind your "brotherhood" and be enlightened.

Sharing humanity is not sharing sin.

Correct! He had the exact nature as you Jane.

No, “who“ has the power of death? Satan is a “who”….not a “what”.

Many things are personified in the Bible….

Correct

.it doesn’t make them persons.

Again true!

The devil is personified but the scriptures reinforce the fact that satan is a real entity who was permitted to tempt the son of God

Hold on, who are you speaking about? A false accuser, or an adversary? You mention devil and satan in the same sentence, without even dealing with Hebrews 2:14???? How so? How can you jump from Paul personifying sin (devil) to forcing a literal supernatural evil being on the text? You don't do that Jane! You can't do that! You either deal with Hebrews 2:14 honestly or walk away.

.“Sin’s power” was not “broken on the cross” because sin has continued to plague humankind ever since their rebellion in Eden. So how was it that sin was dealt with back then at Christ’s death?

I can't believe you just wrote that Jane...really??? You are so focused on your ficticous creature that you missed the meaning of Hebrews 2?

2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery (Wages of sin is death!) all their lives by their fear of death. Heb 2:13–15.

God destroyed sin's power in the body of His Son Jane - that's the whole point of being in Christ, which is why Paul tells you "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Sin can no longer condemn you Jane because God removed its power in His Son (through his death!).

I won't go into "the how" right now, for something tells me you don't wont to learn this truth.

Jesus provided the means for mankind to be forgiven their sins, in spite of the fact that they were still “in sin”.

True, sin is still in existence today but its been dealt with in the Lords Body! For those in Christ there is no condemnation from sin if one lives faithfully.

How does satan hold people in slavery with fear of death ?

Sin does Jane! - because its wages is death = sins power is death!

for “believers” who swallow satan’s first lie that, “you surely will not die”, it is the fear of the afterlife….a hell of eternal torment awaits those who get it wrong….neither of these ideas is what the Bible teaches.

You mean "the serpent" which the Lord God made, right?

See how easy that was to misrepresent that Scripture?

You and I both know the OT, not once, references your make believe creature - NOT ONCE!

Yes to both. The Bible clearly talks about ”the adversary” who is an accuser. Your adversary at law is one who opposes you.
Since angels and God exist in an invisible realm and the Bible indicates that satan and those he has separated from God are angels, as well as humans, your story falls flat.

No Bible support Jane...nothing!

“And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

I'm going to assume you know nothing about the meaning of these symbols and that you do not know the context to which these verse's apply.

Only one question

Does this warfare take place in the same "heaven" as where the woman gave birth to her son in verse 1?

Are the woman and son literal people who were born in the same Heaven as verse 7?

If you decide to engage with me Jane, you must be prepared to acknowledge the difficulties with your own forced notions. Do you know the symbol of Heaven, Michael, angels, the great dragon, the Serpent etc ?

If you decide to reply I'm certain we shall find out this section of prophecy is far from what you think it is.

The original serpent is satan, a rebel spirit who was carried away by this own magnificence,

No, this is what you have been led to believe.

Let me ask you a question about the dragon...what does the Greek word mean δράκων and how does it's meaning represent it's symbol in Rev 12? Explain what the similarities are between the Serpent and the Dragon? Why the connection to the Old Serpent in Gen 3? And how does that event manifest itself in the events of Rev 12 and the Dragon?

To answer these you must leave your notions of a supernatural evil being and a literal dragon! You will need to carefully use your knowledge of what happened in the beginning and the development of that event in the earth today.

Pray first and search!

Satan told God to afflict Job, but in his righteousness he could not bring calamity upon such a faithful servant of his.

I deleted the remainder of your reply as it was clearly error.

Job 42 is super clear, as in other passages of Job, it states the following:

Then came to him all his brothers and sisters and all who had known him before, and ate bread with him in his house. And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him (Job). And each of them gave him a piece of money and a ring of gold. Job 42:11

There is much to learn Jane, and I've tried to show you many things, but you hold to your JW doctrines with a fierce grip, something to be admired really, but you will need to let them go if you want to know the real truth on this subject.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I love your appeal to gnosticism.

I already gave you relevant verses about the devil in Scripture. Ignoring them and doubling down on your nonsense is on you. I'm out of this conversation.

Okay, not willing to go there Wrangler - very interesting; not even a willingness to see the identical word which is used for your Devil, is used of Deacons wives LOL - mate...I never thought I'd see this day.

 

[face2face]

I love your appeal to gnosticism.

I already gave you relevant verses about the devil in Scripture. Ignoring them and doubling down on your nonsense is on you. I'm out of this conversation.

1. Why did the writers not translate "slanderers" as "devils" in 2 Timothy 3:3

Go on give it a go!

2. I'm interested in these verse's you supplied...can you direct me to them?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane @Wrangler

As I predicted, Jane took us to Revelation to prove the existence of a supernatural agent of evil. An incredibly symbolic chapter where every symbol requires unpacking.

Out of interest, do you believe this is the literal image of actual events taking place in this prophecy? Be nice to know my time here has value.

 

[face2face]

You want me to explain the infinite God of creation? It's much easier to just believe what He said. He called His Son "God".

So how do you interpret v9?

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

How can Jesus love righteousness if he is God?
How can God anoint God?
How can God have companions?
How can God have a God?
"therefore God, your God" must mean Christ is not the Eternal Son!

Since the Father is the God of Jesus, then clearly Jesus is not himself "Very God".

You should look up John 20:17 also just in case you want to twist verse 9 as well!

I'm thinking you wont answer those above questions!

F2F

"Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me,* for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God"

I'm waiting Jack for you to explain Verse 9

 

[Wrangler]

2. I'm interested in these verse's you supplied...can you direct me to them?

Saturday morning. Post #206.

Disagree. You mean the burden is on @Aunty Jane above and beyond the words of Scripture to be accepted as proof? What more do you need that Scripture and Jesus saying the con artist exists?

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Matthew 4:1 (NIV)

Your father is the devil, and you do exactly what he wants. He has always been a murderer and a liar. There is nothing truthful about him. He speaks on his own, and everything he says is a lie. Not only is he a liar himself, but he is also the father of all lies.
John 8:44 (CEV)



Revelation is part of the NT. So, I'm not sure what the basis of your objection is. However, I want to expand more on your thoughts of any claim by AJ that there is a Being in the OT that changes God and his Sovereignty. I've never come across anything AJ wrote that was remotely like this at all.



Well, now you are changing the meaning of terms. And you are still incorrect. IF our nature was put to death on the cross, universalism would be correct doctrine and there would be no need to repent and accept Jesus as your lord and savior.


So you will be saved, if you honestly say, “Jesus is Lord,” and if you believe with all your heart that God raised him from death.
Romans 10:9 (CEV)


It was never about the devil. Your questions implied premises are rejected.

The devil is small potatoes.

I consider it no small matter that Jesus was led by the Spirit of God to be tempted by the devil. My pastor did a sermon series on the plagues of Egypt. The term "hardening the heart" is not God deceiving the Pharaoh of his own good judgment. In the native language, the terms means to squeeze what is already there. In other words, if one is looking to sin, looking to be deceived by temptation, only then does the devil have any "power over you." It does not take much power to influence people to do what they want anyway.

Consider John 3:16. It does not say that God broke the power of the devil. To the extent we deceive ourselves, is why a man bleeding on a tree saved us.


The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.
John 16:9 (NLT)

1. Why did the writers not translate "slanderers" as "devils" in 2 Timothy 3:3

It's sad when bad witnesses have to resort to denying there is often more than one sense to a word meaning.

Just yesterday in a meeting, the presentation was called "concrete proposals" but had nothing to do with concrete. It must be a mystical thing, right?

 

[Jack]

Untrue. Not a one says that. You are interpretting O' God to apply to the son when it applies to God's throne. It is the throne of God that the son sits on. Doesn't make him God any more than sitting in the directors chair makes someone a director.

Every verse I quoted says the Son is God. Learn English.

 

[Wrangler]

Every verse I quoted says the Son is God.

No. OF God not is God. Learn English yourself.

 

[Jack]

No. OF God not is God. Learn English yourself.

Let's try again, "to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;"