The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Zao is life]

No matter how you spin it, the facts remain that Noah went into the ark pre flood pre-tribulation and the Ark is representative of a type of Heaven

then Noah Rose over a mile into the sky and was way up above the Earth during the entire flood.
Or you could say the tribulation. Then Noah, After the flood, came back to Earth.
a beautiful depiction of the pre-tribulation rapture.

in fact Jesus, in the time frame that he spoke of Noah, said it was before the flood.

he didn't say Noah was taken After the flood. Then Jesus goes on to say one is taken and one is left in that same time frame as Before the Flood.

in fact Jesus said that we were to watch and wait for his coming... still in the time frame of Before the Flood... then, almost in the next sentence he has another 50% taken, and it's the bridegroom coming for his bride.
and it's peace time, there's no indication of a half destroyed Earth, with only 10 Christians running from cave to Cave trying to escape the Antichrist.

no no no ,the setting is peacetime and normal life and commerce.

so we see that the pre-tribulation Rapture is in fact the only biblical position

You are conflating the wrath of God with the tribulation of the saints. Trying to wake some up who calls the wrath of God that is to come upon the world "the tribulation", is useless. You're too intoxicated with false teaching.

 

[Zao is life]

As I said, the same day Noah turned 600 the flood was upon the earth. Simple.



If this was verse one and there were no verses before it, would you be capable of understanding the verses including vs 14? Pretty simple. Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark in the self same day. Simple.


Here is the NKJV with a paragraph break. Maybe you can get this. See that break between verse 12 and 13. Simple enough.

7 So Noah, with his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives, went into the ark because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth, 9 two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 On the very same day Noah and Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark— 14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life. 16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.

Wait a minute. Before you claimed that it took Noah 7 days to load the animals. Now you claim that they are loaded on the day of the flood.

The reason you had to change your mind is you figured out that it was impossible for Noah to load the animals in the self same day if it took 7 as you originally claimed.



You claim this as the Word continually proves you wrong. You say something........the Word disproves it...........you change your mind and then claim some kind of false victory. SMH.


Oh boy. The first thing God tells Noah is to enter the ark. Do you think he waited 7 days to comply?

Genesis 7
And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

The Word says in verse 7 that Noah did as God commanded. So Noah didn't wait 7 days to obey God. This stuff is so simple and yet your doctrine won't allow your eyes to see the truth. Some people just can't see, no matter how clear and simple it is, their doctrine overrules the Word of God.

Genesis 7
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

I'm just reading what the Word says. You are the one that seems to have trouble accepting what is written. Noah enters the ark on the first day, the day he is told to. In that same self day, Noah, his family and all the animals enter the ark and the Lord shuts him in. So Noah is shut in on the first day even as the Church will be safely in the ark before the seals are opened. By the Church, I mean those that are watching for Him and are ready. The foolish virgins that don't believe He is coming when they think not and are not watching will be here for the hour of temptation.

The Word of God forms my doctrine. I don't need to make anything up as it all falls into place perfectly. Of course, the Word does not agree with your doctrine, so you have a problem. But you seem to have trouble facing the truth of the Word of God.

Sure. Scripture itself contradicts you, but you want to believe the church will be in the ark "before the seals are opened".

There would be no need for the Lamb of God to have opened the seals in that case.

 

[covenantee]

Ok lets go with your theory that the 144k can not possibly be Jewish.
Wink wink.
They can ONLY be the church
Wink wink

What hallucinogen are you ingesting?

Link to a post in which I've said "that the 144k can not possibly be Jewish."

The Church has welcomed multitudes of Jewish Christians since its birth.

All that winking will damage your eyes.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is a lot of combativeness going on here in these conversations. We should all stay away from that, I say. We are, after all, brothers and sisters, at least supposedly... :)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[covenantee]

What's wrong with your reading comprehension? The 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel, the remnant of them of Old saved according to grace through faith, ARE the Church as She existed before Christ the God-Man went to the cross, resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven. The fullness of the entire body of believers that shall be in heaven are not noted by John until vs. 9 where we read they are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".

Yes, they are spiritually virgins because they worship the True God alone, and have not committed spiritually adultery with other gods. The only thing comical is your desire to read your imaginative doctrines into the Word of God. Every true believer belongs to a class of people that are called neither Jew nor Gentile but who are indeed the "Israel of God." You're so hung up on ethnicity that you cannot discern truth.

Amen, bro.

 

[The Light]

Sure. Scripture itself contradicts you, but you want to believe the church will be in the ark "before the seals are opened".

There would be no need for the Lamb of God to have opened the seals in that case.

The seals are not opened.

The seals are the 70th week of Daniel which is about the people of Daniel.

 

[The Light]

Sure. Scripture itself contradicts you

Please attempt to show where scripture contradicts me. If it does, I'll change what I believe.

 

[Timtofly]

There would be no need for the Lamb of God to have opened the seals in that case.

The only reason the Lamb's book of life is unsealed is to start removing names during the GT.

The church is sealed and in Paradise.

The 144k are on the earth sealed to go through the GT with Jesus and the angels. Those remaining in the Lamb's book of life live a thousand years on the earth. The firstfruits and final harvest are those who rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, the Prince part of the Messiah the Prince. The church has gone through tribulation over the last 1993 years. Seems to me that there is a lot of history you all are cramming into the time after the Second Coming.

The final harvest is Jacob's Trouble and not the church's tribulation. The church returns after the Day of the Lord as the New Jerusalem.

 

[David in NJ]

There is a lot of combativeness going on here in these conversations. We should all stay away from that, I say. We are, after all, brothers and sisters, at least supposedly... :)

Grace and peace to all.

You loooking to start a fight?

HAHA - just kidding with ya

 

[rebuilder 454]

What hallucinogen are you ingesting?

Link to a post in which I've said "that the 144k can not possibly be Jewish."

The Church has welcomed multitudes of Jewish Christians since its birth.

All that winking will damage your eyes.

Your post is all personal attacks.
Grow up and crack a bible.
Here is your reference to your disdain of the ethnic Jews

"So you believe that God will choose 144,000 sex-deprived Israelites. Is that the criterion for His choice?"

Remember omission is your doctrines friend.
That is why you disrespect anyone challenging your theories.
We bring the challenge from scripture.
You mock us personally.
Kinda a postribber trademark.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What hallucinogen are you ingesting?

Link to a post in which I've said "that the 144k can not possibly be Jewish."

The Church has welcomed multitudes of Jewish Christians since its birth.

All that winking will damage your eyes.

Translation;
You can not refute the actual declarations in Gods word concerning the 144k.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

There is a lot of combativeness going on here in these conversations. We should all stay away from that, I say. We are, after all, brothers and sisters, at least supposedly... :)

Grace and peace to all.

You are seeing the fruit of the postribber frustration.
I totally understand how they feel.
The bible must be refuted in order to incubate the postrib rapture theory.
"One coming"
"The 144k"
" the rapture depicted preflood in may 24"
The 10 virgin parable
The 2 escape verses
"Lot"... I mean really???
Rev 14 main harvest of Jews.
And on and on....
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are conflating the wrath of God with the tribulation of the saints. Trying to wake some up who calls the wrath of God that is to come upon the world "the tribulation", is useless. You're too intoxicated with false teaching.

You ever open a bible???
I challenge you to stand toe to toe with a bible in hand.
You little shots against me are plain juvenile.
Either crack a bible or keep making a showcase of your inability to refute the bible verses your teachers never incorporated.
Your call

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please attempt to show where scripture contradicts me. If it does, I'll change what I believe.

It will never happen.
They are outta gas.
They cant even understand what first fruits are.
I laugh out loud everytime they try to spiritualize the tribes, and vivid depiction by God of covenant israel.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are conflating the wrath of God with the tribulation of the saints. Trying to wake some up who calls the wrath of God that is to come upon the world "the tribulation", is useless. You're too intoxicated with false teaching.

Then Jesus lied when He said "tribulation such as the world has never seen and never will see"
See what happens when your doctrine of omissions comes up to the bible???
You showcase cliche's.
"Word shuffles" hoping to void what is actually said.
You really think those "one worders"
is honestly refuting the Word of God????
The facts are there.
1) NOAH ENTERS ARK PREFLOOD.
2) NOAH RISES INTO THE SKY DURING THE TRIB, FLOOD, JUDGEMENT, WRATH.
3) NOAH RETURNS TO EARTH POST JUDGEMENT, FLOOD,WRATH, TRIBULATION.
You can not reconcile any of that.
All of that is a fact.

 

[rebuilder 454]

the number is symbolic of SOMEONE BIGGER

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

LOL
that innumerable number is in heaven before the 144k are sealed.
Your entire premise is refuted by your own talking point.
This is what i am talking about.
You guys have no idea what is going on with the 144k so you grab a concept not in the bible and sling it against the wall hoping it will stick.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When you say ethnic Jews, are you distinguishing them from Jews of faith??? The firstfruits of God are believers, saved according to grace through faith. It has absolutely nothing to do with them being Jewish, and everything to do with them believing!

I am thinking you guys must not believe there are ethnic Jews.
That is the only reason i can come up with for such weak answers to bible facts.
1) they are somehow "resealed" since you guys say (correctly) all believers are sealed????
2) you can not honestly refute the number because it has no magic spiritual application to the church.
3) you are trying to unpack "first fruits" and have no idea that firstfruits precedes main harvest.

IOW you can not even begin to comprehend the 144k if you misplace and omit the covenant Jews of Rom 11 and reframe firstfruits as some component that changes its dynamic in rev just to suit your clever reframing.
Not to mention reframing their number as a avoidance of what it actually is.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You think so, yes. And, to an extent, you did. But you went... above and beyond. :)


:)

Ah, getting combative on me. That's... regrettable.


Hmmm... :)

In Genesis 7 and 8, Rebuilder, that Noah and his family entered the ark (7:7), the animals followed (7:8-9), and the waters came (7:10) and continued for forty days, lifting the ark high above the earth (7:17). Every other living thing died, but Noah and those who were with him in the ark were left/remained alive. Eventually, the water subsided, and God renewed the covenant of life with Noah. Neither Noah nor any of the other passengers were "taken into the sky." They were certainly kept safe in the ark, which was floating on the water through the flood, but not "removed" in the sense of not having to endure it. To phrase it a slightly different way, no one was "left behind," but only... not kept safe... left to themselves, without protection.

As for Jesus and how He "frames things" in Matthew 24... He says, "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (24:38-39). He's talking about the suddenness and the unexpectedness of His return, Rebuilder, nothing more, and nothing less. Yes, He does go on to talk about some being taken and some being left, but I would submit that pre-tribulation believers misunderstand who is actually taken and who is actually left. As I'm sure you know, Jesus relates the same parable in Luke 17, and there He likens it to the days of Lot ~ who was certainly not "taken into the sky," neither was he removed from Sodom but left obediently ~ when Sodom and its inhabitants were destroyed, saying that like Lot's wife, "...(w)hoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it" (17:33). Then Luke also relates the some taken and some left language, and the disciples ask, "Where, Lord?" And Jesus answers, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather" (17:37). So again, I would submit that pre-tribulation believers misunderstand who is actually taken and who is actually left.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

Combative to you is anyone refuting your theories.
That is indeed unfortunate.
But i understand your frustration.
You try to refute the timeframe of before the flood.
It is unchangeable.
Yet you need it to go away.
You do understand we are talking about the rapture , correct???
You do realize that in that Noah depiction that Noah returned to Earth post flood, post Wrath, post-tribulation, post judgment ?

that's another Dynamic that you cannot change
it is there eternally.
The other thing is is that you would
need some kind of tribulation going on preflood , or that somehow Noah escaped tribulation.
Some kind of tribulation that was there happening preflood as in the four horsemen released.
you know, like all the Judgment that was coming up on the world through the Four Horsemen

you don't have a case at all

 

[rebuilder 454]

You think so, yes. And, to an extent, you did. But you went... above and beyond. :)


:)

Ah, getting combative on me. That's... regrettable.


Hmmm... :)

In Genesis 7 and 8, Rebuilder, that Noah and his family entered the ark (7:7), the animals followed (7:8-9), and the waters came (7:10) and continued for forty days, lifting the ark high above the earth (7:17). Every other living thing died, but Noah and those who were with him in the ark were left/remained alive. Eventually, the water subsided, and God renewed the covenant of life with Noah. Neither Noah nor any of the other passengers were "taken into the sky." They were certainly kept safe in the ark, which was floating on the water through the flood, but not "removed" in the sense of not having to endure it. To phrase it a slightly different way, no one was "left behind," but only... not kept safe... left to themselves, without protection.

As for Jesus and how He "frames things" in Matthew 24... He says, "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (24:38-39). He's talking about the suddenness and the unexpectedness of His return, Rebuilder, nothing more, and nothing less. Yes, He does go on to talk about some being taken and some being left, but I would submit that pre-tribulation believers misunderstand who is actually taken and who is actually left. As I'm sure you know, Jesus relates the same parable in Luke 17, and there He likens it to the days of Lot ~ who was certainly not "taken into the sky," neither was he removed from Sodom but left obediently ~ when Sodom and its inhabitants were destroyed, saying that like Lot's wife, "...(w)hoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it" (17:33). Then Luke also relates the some taken and some left language, and the disciples ask, "Where, Lord?" And Jesus answers, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather" (17:37). So again, I would submit that pre-tribulation believers misunderstand who is actually taken and who is actually left.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

"Neither Noah nor any of the other passengers were "taken into the sky." They were certainly kept safe in the ark, which was floating on the water through the flood, but not "removed" "
Lol
You say he was on the water surface?
My bible says it was over a mile into the sky.
Wow
Don't hurt yourself now.
You just confirmed the bible by agreeing Noah was taken high into the sky.
Such wasted effort to try and change Gods word.
But hey, keep tryin son.
Persistence!!!
Persistence!!!!
Lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thank You Jesus for your word!!!!!