The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rwb]

Bible= 144k firstfruit ethnic Jews separated during the GT.

Some members here on the board= nope bible is wrong.

That is a fact.

When you say ethnic Jews, are you distinguishing them from Jews of faith??? The firstfruits of God are believers, saved according to grace through faith. It has absolutely nothing to do with them being Jewish, and everything to do with them believing!

 

[The Light]

They have no clue about first fruits.
Their doctrine draws a blank.

Ain't that the truth.

The Word tells us what first fruits are and then tell us who the 144,000 first fruits are.

But the truth is not good enough. They find it necessary to make things up to attempt to get their doctrine to work as the Word does not agree with their doctrine.

 

[The Light]

You just keep proving beyond the shadow of any doubt that despite all logic you will re-interpret scripture to suit your false doctrine of a pre-rapture rapture. PS: A pre-tribulation rapture is a pre-rapture rapture.​

Seems clear enough. Noah went in and 7 days after He was told to enter the ark the flood came.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

There is no new paragraph unless you want to insert seven days after the seventh day that the text itself does not speak about. Total eisegesis. Ridiculous eisegesis.

If there is no new paragraph in Genesis 7:13 as you claim, could you please contact the Blue Letter Bible and tell them that you are smarter than they are as they have marked a new paragraph at Genesis 7:13. Of course, you would need to understand what this symbol means............¶

Gen 7:12
And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13
¶
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14
They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

I would stop now if I were you because you are making it very obvious each time you deliberately misinterpret this passage that there is a motive for your doing so - you are seeking to force what the scripture says to comply with your false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture.​

You want me to stop because you are sick of me continually proving you wrong. The thing is, I don't have to make anything up, I just need to post the Word. And yet your doctrine will not allow you to see.

 

[PinSeeker]

I would encourage anyone to take a good concordance and do a word search on "firstfruits" and see what you come up with...

With regard to our salvation and the resurrection to eternal life, Christ Himself (Who of course never was in need of salvation, but certainly accomplished it for us) is the firstfruits. Paul puts it best:

"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:20-24).

And Jesus was not "raptured"... :) He ascended, for sure, to heaven 40 days after His resurrection, and is seated at the right hand of God, ruling from heaven as we speak. And He will certainly return, the same way He left. :) And when that happens, we shall all be like Him, because we will see Him as He is (various Scripture references). :)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rwb]

I would encourage anyone to take a good concordance and do a word search on "firstfruits" and see what you come up with...

With regard to our salvation and the resurrection to eternal life, Christ Himself (Who of course never was in need of salvation, but certainly accomplished it for us) is the firstfruits. Paul puts it best:

"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:20-24).

And Jesus was not "raptured"... :) He ascended, for sure, to heaven 40 days after His resurrection, and is seated at the right hand of God, ruling from heaven as we speak. And He will certainly return, the same way He left. :) And when that happens, we shall all be like Him, because we will see Him as He is (various Scripture references). :)

Grace and peace to all.

Absolutely true PinSeeker! Since Christ is the firstfruits all who partake of Him are firstfruits unto God. Those 144,000 Old Covenant saints of all the tribes of the children of Israel are the firstfruits of the Spirit when they were sealed by the Spirit, and as spiritual body of believers ascended with Christ to heaven (Eph 4:8-10).

Every faithful saint since the cross and resurrection NOW spiritually partake of Christ, becoming the firstfruits also through His Spirit in us when we are born from above.

James 1:18 (KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Romans 8:23 (KJV) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The harvest NOW is spiritual, not physical, for all who spiritually come into the Kingdom of God when they are born from above. The final harvest that shall come for all the faithful saints is when the last trumpet sounds. We and Old Covenant faithful saints in heaven are spiritually the firstfruits unto God through His Spirit, because we have partaken in life of Christ who is the firstfruits of the dead.

This nonsense of ethnic unbelieving Jews being the firstfruits unto God, or the nonsense of Gentiles being firstfruits of the first harvest, is simply that.....NONSENSE!

Grace and peace to you also.

 

[covenantee]

But beside that, your replacement theology is not biblical and your analogy is flawed because both Jew and Gentile make up "one new man" espoused to Christ.

When an ethnic/genetic Jew receives Christ, his ethnicity before he receives Christ is unchanged after he receives Christ.

Nothing ethnic/genetic is replaced.

"Replacement theology" is simply another risible contrived dispensational fallacy.

 

[Zao is life]

Seems clear enough. Noah went in and 7 days after He was told to enter the ark the flood came.

Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.


If there is no new paragraph in Genesis 7:13 as you claim, could you please contact the Blue Letter Bible and tell them that you are smarter than they are as they have marked a new paragraph at Genesis 7:13. Of course, you would need to understand what this symbol means............¶

Gen 7:12
And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13
¶
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14
They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.



You want me to stop because you are sick of me continually proving you wrong. The thing is, I don't have to make anything up, I just need to post the Word. And yet your doctrine will not allow you to see.

King James Version

11 ¶In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.​

13 In the selfsame [H6105 'etsem] day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.

The physical King James reference Bible I have has the new paragraph mark in the same place as above - verse 11, with no paragraph break between verses 12 & 13, so the Blue Letter Bible's quoting of the King James Bible has it in a different place, for their own reasons.

Here's an article on why there are discrepancies between the 1611 King James Bible and some of the new editions of the King James version:

What is the origin of the paragraph markings in the King James Version?

Several editions of the King James Version I have seen have paragraph markings (¶). I have found no explanation for how these delineations were determined or who determined them, although this art...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

It makes no difference though, because even if there is a paragraph break between verses 12 & 13 in the original Hebrew, it still does not change the fact that "in the selfsame day" in verse 13 is in reference to "the same day" in verse 11. The same Hebrew word (Strongs H6105) is used in this verse:
​

And Adam said, This is now bone [H6105 `etsem] of my bones [`etsem] and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called Woman because she was taken out of man. -- Genesis 2:23.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
6106 `etsem eh'tsem from 6105; a bone (as strong); by extension, the body; figuratively, the substance, i.e. (as pron.) selfsame:--body, bone, X life, (self-)same, strength, X very. see HEBREW for 06105

There is no doubt in the text that the day Noah entered the ark was the same day the flood waters began - the seventh of seven days.

You've now made it abundantly clear and totally obvious that you're grasping at straws, creating a very ridiculous red herring.

Your pre-trib doctrine is false. You based everything you said in support of it on a falsehood regarding which day Noah entered the ark, and so you're looking more and more ridiculous trying to prove Noah did not enter the ark in the same day that the flood began - the seventh of seven days.

If I were you I would stop now because the text of God's Word in Genesis 7 proves you wrong and you have made yourself look ridiculous and are making it obvious that you're determined to force scripture to comply with your false pre-trib doctrine, even to the point of changing what an important passage like the passage regarding the flood actually says.

You mess with the Word of God for the sake of your false doctrine, which is shameful.​

 

[brightfame52]

The 144000 is the Church, the Body of Christ the exclusive Body of People Christ Loved and gave Himself for to make Holy Eph 5:25-26

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually it proves a post trib rapture of the twelve tribes across the earth. It the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins. Since the first fruits are of the twelve tribes across the earth, the harvest is the twelve tribes across the earth.

Here is the post trib rapture harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is a confirmation that those that are harvested immediately after the tribulation are from the 12 tribes.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Why do we have first fruits. Because there has already been a pretrib harvest of the Church before the seals are opened. Seen here.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So there are two raptures, one pretrib and one post trib. After the pretrib rapture occurs, the seals can be opened. After the post trib rapture occurs the wrath of God can begin.

Yes.
So basic and simple

 

[rebuilder 454]

The 144000 is the Church, the Body of Christ the exclusive Body of People Christ Loved and gave Himself for to make Holy Eph 5:25-26

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Kinda small huh?
About 5 % of the actual church?
What a stretch.

 

[rebuilder 454]

King James Version

11 ¶In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.​

13 In the selfsame [H6105 'etsem] day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.

The physical King James reference Bible I have has the new paragraph mark in the same place as above - verse 11, with no paragraph break between verses 12 & 13, so the Blue Letter Bible's quoting of the King James Bible has it in a different place, for their own reasons.

Here's an article on why there are discrepancies between the 1611 King James Bible and some of the new editions of the King James version:

What is the origin of the paragraph markings in the King James Version?

Several editions of the King James Version I have seen have paragraph markings (¶). I have found no explanation for how these delineations were determined or who determined them, although this art...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

It makes no difference though, because even if there is a paragraph break between verses 12 & 13 in the original Hebrew, it still does not change the fact that "in the selfsame day" in verse 13 is in reference to "the same day" in verse 11. The same Hebrew word (Strongs H6105) is used in this verse:
​

And Adam said, This is now bone [H6105 `etsem] of my bones [`etsem] and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called Woman because she was taken out of man. -- Genesis 2:23.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
6106 `etsem eh'tsem from 6105; a bone (as strong); by extension, the body; figuratively, the substance, i.e. (as pron.) selfsame:--body, bone, X life, (self-)same, strength, X very. see HEBREW for 06105

There is no doubt in the text that the day Noah entered the ark was the same day the flood waters began - the seventh of seven days.

You've now made it abundantly clear and totally obvious that you're grasping at straws, creating a very ridiculous red herring.

Your pre-trib doctrine is false. You based everything you said in support of it on a falsehood regarding which day Noah entered the ark, and so you're looking more and more ridiculous trying to prove Noah did not enter the ark in the same day that the flood began - the seventh of seven days.

If I were you I would stop now because the text of God's Word in Genesis 7 proves you wrong and you have made yourself look ridiculous and are making it obvious that you're determined to force scripture to comply with your false pre-trib doctrine, even to the point of changing what an important passage like the passage regarding the flood actually says.

You mess with the Word of God for the sake of your false doctrine, which is shameful.​

No matter how you spin it, the facts remain that Noah went into the ark pre flood pre-tribulation and the Ark is representative of a type of Heaven

then Noah Rose over a mile into the sky and was way up above the Earth during the entire flood.
Or you could say the tribulation. Then Noah, After the flood, came back to Earth.
a beautiful depiction of the pre-tribulation rapture.

in fact Jesus, in the time frame that he spoke of Noah, said it was before the flood.

he didn't say Noah was taken After the flood. Then Jesus goes on to say one is taken and one is left in that same time frame as Before the Flood.

in fact Jesus said that we were to watch and wait for his coming... still in the time frame of Before the Flood... then, almost in the next sentence he has another 50% taken, and it's the bridegroom coming for his bride.
and it's peace time, there's no indication of a half destroyed Earth, with only 10 Christians running from cave to Cave trying to escape the Antichrist.

no no no ,the setting is peacetime and normal life and commerce.

so we see that the pre-tribulation Rapture is in fact the only biblical position

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please post the Scriptural reference that describes God's faithful obedient saints through the ages as "pesky".
No gymnastics at all for the spiritually discerning. Foolishness to all others. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Thank you God for the records of your faithful obedient saints through the ages.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

Ok lets go with your theory that the 144k can not possibly be Jewish.
Wink wink.
They can ONLY be the church
Wink wink

I always thought it was way bigger.????
Wow that 144k that have never known women is really elite huh?
Must be dead saints that were not tainted with the american gospel.
The modern carnal church, as we test your theory of elite non Jewish believers out of 12 non Jewish tribes FROM THE LAND OF ISRAEL,
is getting pretty far fetched.
Actually comical.
Remember, in your test theory, they CAN NOT POSSIBLY BE JEWS.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thank you...


No, the ark is a type, or shadow of Christ ~ it is representative of Christ, Whom we, having been born again of the Holy Spirit, and thus a new creation in Christ, are now in. We are no longer in Adam but in Christ.

No one was removed from the flood, but some ~ Noah and his family, of course ~ were carried through it, and protected from its destruction. And that's God's promise throughout Scripture, not that He will remove us from any kind of trouble, but that He will always be with us in the midst of it, that He will never leave us or forsake us, that He even though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, He is always with us, protecting us and even preparing a table before us in the midst of our enemies.


Disagree. What you say here is kind of what I was getting at in the other thread when I said that thinking the parables have "components" and that they are a "story within a story" can be a dangerous way of thinking. Not to say that it always leads one into falsehoods, but that it can lead to... well, in the negative sense, "creativity." :)

The parable is meant to convey the suddenness of the return of Christ and the need to prepare beforehand and to be ready. Just as Noah was ready for the flood that God said would come. As I said, Jesus, in Matthew 24, said the suddenness and unexpectedness of His return would be as the suddenness and unexpectedness of the coming of the flood in Noah's day:

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (Matthew 24:37-39)

Quite obviously, it's not about the flood itself or the timing of the return in relation to it, but about it's manner, it's suddenness and unexpectedness. And he sums it up by saying:

"Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)

And this is what I was actually intimating before, Rebuilder, that we should... well, to be very succinct, that we should be careful with Scripture (as we are told in Revelation 22).

Grace and peace to you.

You are welcome.
All i did was read and recognize that Jesus framed his coming and taking of the bride as it READS.
Try it some day.
Jesus = BEFORE THE FLOOD
You = there is no preflood dynamic in Noah entering the ark and taken into the sky, then RETURNING TO EARTH post trib-/flood

even though Jesus framed his coming as BEFORE THE FLOOD.

 

[The Light]

King James Version

11 ¶In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.​

As I said, the same day Noah turned 600 the flood was upon the earth. Simple.

13 In the selfsame [H6105 'etsem] day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.

If this was verse one and there were no verses before it, would you be capable of understanding the verses including vs 14? Pretty simple. Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark in the self same day. Simple.

The physical King James reference Bible I have has the new paragraph mark in the same place as above - verse 11, with no paragraph break between verses 12 & 13, so the Blue Letter Bible's quoting of the King James Bible has it in a different place, for their own reasons.

Here's an article on why there are discrepancies between the 1611 King James Bible and some of the new editions of the King James version:

What is the origin of the paragraph markings in the King James Version?

Several editions of the King James Version I have seen have paragraph markings (¶). I have found no explanation for how these delineations were determined or who determined them, although this art...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

It makes no difference though, because even if there is a paragraph break between verses 12 & 13 in the original Hebrew, it still does not change the fact that "in the selfsame day" in verse 13 is in reference to "the same day" in verse 11. The same Hebrew word (Strongs H6105) is used in this verse:​

Here is the NKJV with a paragraph break. Maybe you can get this. See that break between verse 12 and 13. Simple enough.

7 So Noah, with his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives, went into the ark because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth, 9 two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 On the very same day Noah and Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark— 14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life. 16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.

There is no doubt in the text that the day Noah entered the ark was the same day the flood waters began - the seventh of seven days.

Wait a minute. Before you claimed that it took Noah 7 days to load the animals. Now you claim that they are loaded on the day of the flood.

The reason you had to change your mind is you figured out that it was impossible for Noah to load the animals in the self same day if it took 7 as you originally claimed.

You've now made it abundantly clear and totally obvious that you're grasping at straws, creating a very ridiculous red herring.​

You claim this as the Word continually proves you wrong. You say something........the Word disproves it...........you change your mind and then claim some kind of false victory. SMH.

Your pre-trib doctrine is false. You based everything you said in support of it on a falsehood regarding which day Noah entered the ark, and so you're looking more and more ridiculous trying to prove Noah did not enter the ark in the same day that the flood began - the seventh of seven days.​

Oh boy. The first thing God tells Noah is to enter the ark. Do you think he waited 7 days to comply?

Genesis 7
And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

The Word says in verse 7 that Noah did as God commanded. So Noah didn't wait 7 days to obey God. This stuff is so simple and yet your doctrine won't allow your eyes to see the truth. Some people just can't see, no matter how clear and simple it is, their doctrine overrules the Word of God.

Genesis 7
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

If I were you I would stop now because the text of God's Word in Genesis 7 proves you wrong and you have made yourself look ridiculous and are making it obvious that you're determined to force scripture to comply with your false pre-trib doctrine, even to the point of changing what an important passage like the passage regarding the flood actually says.

I'm just reading what the Word says. You are the one that seems to have trouble accepting what is written. Noah enters the ark on the first day, the day he is told to. In that same self day, Noah, his family and all the animals enter the ark and the Lord shuts him in. So Noah is shut in on the first day even as the Church will be safely in the ark before the seals are opened. By the Church, I mean those that are watching for Him and are ready. The foolish virgins that don't believe He is coming when they think not and are not watching will be here for the hour of temptation.

You mess with the Word of God for the sake of your false doctrine, which is shameful.​

The Word of God forms my doctrine. I don't need to make anything up as it all falls into place perfectly. Of course, the Word does not agree with your doctrine, so you have a problem. But you seem to have trouble facing the truth of the Word of God.

 

[The Light]

Yes.
So basic and simple

So the Church is raptured before the seals are opened as we can escape ALL these things that will come to pass. Then God turns His attention to the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth as part of Israel has their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. There is a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth, immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. This occurs at the 6th seal.

Only the nation of Israel, those that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God. The great multitude will be in heaven for the 1-year wrath of God as they attend the marriage supper.

 

[rwb]

Kinda small huh?
About 5 % of the actual church?
What a stretch.

Do you read every numerical mention found in the Revelation literally? Have you never heard of the remnant from Old Covenant Israel saved according to grace through faith? Remnant is not a definitive number and neither is 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. However these Old Covenant faithful saints did indeed represent the Church on earth as She existed before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[rwb]

Ok lets go with your theory that the 144k can not possibly be Jewish.
Wink wink.
They can ONLY be the church
Wink wink

I always thought it was way bigger.????
Wow that 144k that have never known women is really elite huh?
Must be dead saints that were not tainted with the american gospel.
The modern carnal church, as we test your theory of elite non Jewish believers out of 12 non Jewish tribes FROM THE LAND OF ISRAEL,
is getting pretty far fetched.
Actually comical.
Remember, in your test theory, they CAN NOT POSSIBLY BE JEWS.
SMH

What's wrong with your reading comprehension? The 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel, the remnant of them of Old saved according to grace through faith, ARE the Church as She existed before Christ the God-Man went to the cross, resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven. The fullness of the entire body of believers that shall be in heaven are not noted by John until vs. 9 where we read they are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".

Yes, they are spiritually virgins because they worship the True God alone, and have not committed spiritually adultery with other gods. The only thing comical is your desire to read your imaginative doctrines into the Word of God. Every true believer belongs to a class of people that are called neither Jew nor Gentile but who are indeed the "Israel of God." You're so hung up on ethnicity that you cannot discern truth.

 

[brightfame52]

Kinda small huh?
About 5 % of the actual church?
What a stretch.

I dont know what you talking about, you dont neither lol

 

[PinSeeker]

All i did was read and recognize that Jesus framed his coming and taking of the bride as it READS.

You think so, yes. And, to an extent, you did. But you went... above and beyond. :)

Try it some day.

:)

Ah, getting combative on me. That's... regrettable.

You = there is no preflood dynamic in Noah entering the ark and taken into the sky, then RETURNING TO EARTH post trib-/flood even though Jesus framed his coming as BEFORE THE FLOOD.

Hmmm... :)

In Genesis 7 and 8, Rebuilder, that Noah and his family entered the ark (7:7), the animals followed (7:8-9), and the waters came (7:10) and continued for forty days, lifting the ark high above the earth (7:17). Every other living thing died, but Noah and those who were with him in the ark were left/remained alive. Eventually, the water subsided, and God renewed the covenant of life with Noah. Neither Noah nor any of the other passengers were "taken into the sky." They were certainly kept safe in the ark, which was floating on the water through the flood, but not "removed" in the sense of not having to endure it. To phrase it a slightly different way, no one was "left behind," but only... not kept safe... left to themselves, without protection.

As for Jesus and how He "frames things" in Matthew 24... He says, "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (24:38-39). He's talking about the suddenness and the unexpectedness of His return, Rebuilder, nothing more, and nothing less. Yes, He does go on to talk about some being taken and some being left, but I would submit that pre-tribulation believers misunderstand who is actually taken and who is actually left. As I'm sure you know, Jesus relates the same parable in Luke 17, and there He likens it to the days of Lot ~ who was certainly not "taken into the sky," neither was he removed from Sodom but left obediently ~ when Sodom and its inhabitants were destroyed, saying that like Lot's wife, "...(w)hoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it" (17:33). Then Luke also relates the some taken and some left language, and the disciples ask, "Where, Lord?" And Jesus answers, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather" (17:37). So again, I would submit that pre-tribulation believers misunderstand who is actually taken and who is actually left.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

 

[David in NJ]

Kinda small huh?
About 5 % of the actual church?
What a stretch.

the number is symbolic of SOMEONE BIGGER

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying: