The 144,000 before God at the end.

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rwb

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Ask yourself who can actually say honestly 144k is a number of the church???

Who can actually say honestly they are NOT the Church as She existed of Old before Christ came to earth a man? The Bible says those of Old of faith are the Church, and these 144,000 sealed by the Spirit and ascending to heaven with the Lord, you say are not the Church of Old???

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

It is written symbolically 144,000 to represent the remnant of those of faith of Old!
 

rebuilder 454

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Disprove this:
"The Church has welcomed multitudes of Jewish Christians since its birth."

God is not a racist.

Notwithstanding your desperate attempts to contort Him into one.
lol
We all know that.
Nobody is disputing any of it
 

rebuilder 454

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Who can actually say honestly they are NOT the Church as She existed of Old before Christ came to earth a man? The Bible says those of Old of faith are the Church, and these 144,000 sealed by the Spirit and ascending to heaven with the Lord, you say are not the Church of Old???

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

It is written symbolically 144,000 to represent the remnant of those of faith of Old!
They are believers.
Nobody is disputing that

All believers become one new man in Christ.
We all know that.
Messianic Jews are christians first, ethnicity second, third or fourth.
We all know that.
 

rebuilder 454

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Who can actually say honestly they are NOT the Church as She existed of Old before Christ came to earth a man? The Bible says those of Old of faith are the Church, and these 144,000 sealed by the Spirit and ascending to heaven with the Lord, you say are not the Church of Old???

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

It is written symbolically 144,000 to represent the remnant of those of faith of Old!
You know, when you guys omit components you can only get a partial picture.
They are firstfruit JEWS.

None of you understand first fruits.
Concerning the church, Jesus is the firstfruits along with the patriarchs.
Concerning the Jewish harvest DURING THE TRIB, the 144k are first fruits.
It is that simple.
But it ,all by itself, destroys all but a pretrib doctrine.
Amazing how one of 10 dynamics destroys all those theories.
But the others are just as powerful

Definitely a pretrib rapture.
No way around it.
 

rwb

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Just omit "before the flood"
And rev 14 gatherings and you will be fine.

We are not speaking of what came before the flood. We are now, since the first advent of Christ living in "these last days". You simply attempt to cloud the issue by bringing in what took place before and during the flood, because you THINK it proves your unbiblical doctrine.

Rev 14:1-5 pertains to those same elect remnant sealed and saved, 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Then John transitions to what has come, and is coming to pass in these last days since the sealing and ascending to heaven the Old Covenant faithful saints. The time when the everlasting Gospel is preached unto ALL who dwell on the earth, every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It is a warning call to all the earth to give all glory to God for the hour of His judgment has come.

Revelation 14:6-7 (KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

What is the hour of judgment that has come upon the earth since the first advent of Christ come to earth a man? Judgment has come unto the whole world through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For the Gospel is the discerner of the hearts of mankind.

Romans 2:14-16 (KJV) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
 

rwb

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Are any of you aware that the 144,000 are Jews and that they are Messianic Jews???
they believe in Jesus

it says they follow him wherever he goes

I really wish you guys would study the word more precisely

Yes, they are the elect remnant saved according to grace through faith because they believed what was taught them in the Law and they believed the prophets who foretold of the Messiah Who was to come to save them.
 

rebuilder 454

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When Jews become Christians they become Messianic Jews .

they don't stop being Jews, they're saved they're one new man they're in the body of Christ.

they're no more important than any believer as Paul pointed out ,but they are still Jews as Paul called himself one.

in the same thinking Africans that get saved are still Africans. Eskimos that gets saved or still Eskimos. Mexicans that get saved or still Mexicans
 
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rwb

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Paul said "to the Jew first, and also to the greek".
Factor in the ethnic Jewish dynamic.

I know what Paul said! Which is how I understand the elect remnant of Old Covenant faithful Israelite Jews were saved according to grace through faith and that Gentiles of faith shall complete them. With both Jew and Gentiles of faith salvation has come to all the earth, and whosoever according to grace through faith believes Christ is called the Israel of God that is neither Jew nor Gentile (Greek) but people from every nation of the earth.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
 

rebuilder 454

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We are not speaking of what came before the flood. We are now, since the first advent of Christ living in "these last days". You simply attempt to cloud the issue by bringing in what took place before and during the flood, because you THINK it proves your unbiblical doctrine.

Rev 14:1-5 pertains to those same elect remnant sealed and saved, 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Then John transitions to what has come, and is coming to pass in these last days since the sealing and ascending to heaven the Old Covenant faithful saints. The time when the everlasting Gospel is preached unto ALL who dwell on the earth, every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It is a warning call to all the earth to give all glory to God for the hour of His judgment has come.

Revelation 14:6-7 (KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

What is the hour of judgment that has come upon the earth since the first advent of Christ come to earth a man? Judgment has come unto the whole world through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For the Gospel is the discerner of the hearts of mankind.

Romans 2:14-16 (KJV) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
I am glad that I can just read it and let those words be true.
I don't need "after" to mean anything but "after" in mat 24
I don't need "before" to mean anything but "before" in Matthew 24
 

rebuilder 454

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We are not speaking of what came before the flood. We are now, since the first advent of Christ living in "these last days". You simply attempt to cloud the issue by bringing in what took place before and during the flood, because you THINK it proves your unbiblical doctrine.

Rev 14:1-5 pertains to those same elect remnant sealed and saved, 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Then John transitions to what has come, and is coming to pass in these last days since the sealing and ascending to heaven the Old Covenant faithful saints. The time when the everlasting Gospel is preached unto ALL who dwell on the earth, every nation, kindred, tongue and people. It is a warning call to all the earth to give all glory to God for the hour of His judgment has come.

Revelation 14:6-7 (KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

What is the hour of judgment that has come upon the earth since the first advent of Christ come to earth a man? Judgment has come unto the whole world through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For the Gospel is the discerner of the hearts of mankind.

Romans 2:14-16 (KJV) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
...and in mat 24 which you again omitted, and always will, Jesus said the setting of before the flood is the time frame of the rapture. One taken, one left behind.
Always omit.
It is your only hope to promote your theory.
 

David in NJ

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Just keep on omitting "Before the Flood", and the Gathering in Revelation 14 during the tribulation and you'll be okay
Before the flood

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”
 
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PinSeeker

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They are believers.... All believers become one new man in Christ...
Absolutely.

Paul said "to the Jew first, and also to the greek". Factor in the ethnic Jewish dynamic.
Well, "factoring the ethnic Jewish dynamic in" correctly is the issue, here, Rebuilder, not whether it's done or not. When Paul says that, he's referring to how things were before the coming of Christ and how they are now after His coming. There was plenty of fore-shadowing from Genesis to Malachi (the Old Testament) of the Gospel being opened to the Greek (Gentiles) before His coming, but upon His coming ~ upon His birth, the three wise men being among the first to show us this ~ the Gospel was opened to everyone. We... well, we should... all know that. :)

Grace and peace to you.
 
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Davy

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Glad you agree that your "replacement theology" is an absurd fallacy. :laughing:
No such thing as Replacement Theology.

That is a term devised by Jews that don't like the idea that God continued His Promises and Blessings with The NEW COVENANT JESUS CHRIST, also known as "the Israel of God".

Gal 6:15-16
15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
KJV
 

Timtofly

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If He's talking to His disciples and warning them about it in the context of talking about tribulation leading up to the coming of the Son of man, is it the world's tribulation or the elect's tribulation He's warning the elect about?
Did the disciples remain alive until the Second Coming?

Did those disciples choose Christ, or did Christ choose them?

The elect are all those written in the Lamb's book of life. Once removed from the Lamb's book of life they are no longer the elect.

The church is removed from the earth at the Second Coming. But that is not the end. After the Second Coming, there is the time of Jacob's trouble. That is when Jesus and the angels gather the final harvest. The 144k are the sealed firstfruits of the restored Israelite Nation. So there are elect on earth not part of the church, and not even part of Israel, after the Second Coming. They are elect, until they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. They are to flee from Satan and company to make a rational decision. But during the GT and final harvest, it is Jesus who decides who receives eternal life and who receives eternal damnation.

The choice to accept God is not available while Jesus is on the earth. During the last 42 months, when Satan is given the throne, the choice is available. But the choice is between chopping off one's head or taking the mark.

Jesus is warning all on earth, even the elect who are not part of the church. You don't seem to accept election is universal. That does not mean every one will be redeemed. The elect just means that every one ever conceived had an opportunity to accept God. God did not condemn some to death. Many claim God condemned Esau to death, because He loved Jacob, but hated Esau. Jacob and Esau are just examples of those who accept God and those who keep rejecting every opportunity God gives them. God also hates lukewarm believers.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

So the point about Jacob's trouble is that all humanity left on earth go through this time, and there are elect still on earth. Elect does not mean you are part of the NT Covenant. The disciples were chosen, redeemed, and elect. Then Judas decided to reject God. That was his choice. Until his name is removed from the Lamb's book of life, he is still elected by God. The church are those who act on the election and receive the second birth. For the 11 disciples that was the day of Pentecost. So they were elect and chosen prior to the second birth.

So was the Olivet Discourse to the church, the elect, or the redeemed? Do parts of it apply to the elect, to the church, or to the redeemed? The millions killed in 70AD were elect. They still physically died outside of the second birth. A soul is elect until removed from the Lamb's book of life.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

Can the dead come to repentance at the GWT in Revelation 20:12?

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

If the Lamb's book of life is opened, that would be the time many dead would be removed. I mean, many Amil believe that is when both the redeemed and lost are resurrected and separated, no? Even Daniel was told that many would receive eternal life at that point. So even in death, some elect are still considered the dead.

If you are one who thinks the elect are only a few percent of all humanity, then you are wrong in thinking that. Those disciples on the mount of Olives were redeemed and elect, but also the firstfruits of the NT Covenant and not even a part of the church until the day of Pentecost. No verse claims the original 12 disciples were sealed and unable to reject Jesus Christ. However, the 144k are sealed and separated from the church, because they were still on earth after the Second Coming. They are elect because they are in the Lamb's book of life. They are sealed and remain in the Lamb's book of life. Then the 7th Seal is opened and they are on earth with Jesus as their King during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

The church is all the redeemed in Paradise both OT and NT souls. There will be sealed and redeemed humans on earth during the Millennium. Those born in the Millennium are not lost people. They are not in Adam's dead image. They do not even need redemption, because they are not born in sin. But that seems to be lost on modern day theology and eschatology. Those souls currently in sheol do not need redemption. They already have that available. They cannot experience anything but punishment. They cannot change their condition by choice. What they did in their lifetime on earth is already recorded and is what holds them accountable.

Those currently in Paradise cannot choose to sin, nor live in rebellion to God. So what is the issue about the Millennium where sin is removed and there is eternal righteousness? On earth will be the only place where one can choose to disobey. But that means eternal death and separation from God, and they were not in the Lamb's book of life, because they were not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh and in need of redemption. That is also what people forget about pre-flood earth. There were sons of God living on the earth, not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, so not in need of redemption. But when they started to have offspring with Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that offspring became sinners, and that offspring had offspring that became even more wicked, generation after generation.

Good fruit cannot change bad fruit. It is the bad fruit that corrupts all the good fruit. So the sons of God were removed from the earth. Just like the church will be removed prior to the final harvest. The 144k are sealed and like Noah in the ark go through the Trumpets and Thunders. In fact at the Second Coming, those of the second birth are all made sons of God. Now they are as all the Sons of God created on day six, and multiplied and filled the earth prior to the Flood. Adam's offspring restored to the full image of God. Those on earth still only have a soul and body. But those born during the Millennium are not written into the Lamb's book of life. They never die, so never need redeemed. Unlike Adam no human will bring sin into the world, and death by sin.
 

Zao is life

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Did the disciples remain alive until the Second Coming?

Did those disciples choose Christ, or did Christ choose them?

The elect are all those written in the Lamb's book of life. Once removed from the Lamb's book of life they are no longer the elect.

The church is removed from the earth at the Second Coming. But that is not the end. After the Second Coming, there is the time of Jacob's trouble. That is when Jesus and the angels gather the final harvest. The 144k are the sealed firstfruits of the restored Israelite Nation. So there are elect on earth not part of the church, and not even part of Israel, after the Second Coming. They are elect, until they are removed from the Lamb's book of life. They are to flee from Satan and company to make a rational decision. But during the GT and final harvest, it is Jesus who decides who receives eternal life and who receives eternal damnation.

The choice to accept God is not available while Jesus is on the earth. During the last 42 months, when Satan is given the throne, the choice is available. But the choice is between chopping off one's head or taking the mark.

Jesus is warning all on earth, even the elect who are not part of the church. You don't seem to accept election is universal. That does not mean every one will be redeemed. The elect just means that every one ever conceived had an opportunity to accept God. God did not condemn some to death. Many claim God condemned Esau to death, because He loved Jacob, but hated Esau. Jacob and Esau are just examples of those who accept God and those who keep rejecting every opportunity God gives them. God also hates lukewarm believers.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

So the point about Jacob's trouble is that all humanity left on earth go through this time, and there are elect still on earth. Elect does not mean you are part of the NT Covenant. The disciples were chosen, redeemed, and elect. Then Judas decided to reject God. That was his choice. Until his name is removed from the Lamb's book of life, he is still elected by God. The church are those who act on the election and receive the second birth. For the 11 disciples that was the day of Pentecost. So they were elect and chosen prior to the second birth.

So was the Olivet Discourse to the church, the elect, or the redeemed? Do parts of it apply to the elect, to the church, or to the redeemed? The millions killed in 70AD were elect. They still physically died outside of the second birth. A soul is elect until removed from the Lamb's book of life.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

Can the dead come to repentance at the GWT in Revelation 20:12?

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

If the Lamb's book of life is opened, that would be the time many dead would be removed. I mean, many Amil believe that is when both the redeemed and lost are resurrected and separated, no? Even Daniel was told that many would receive eternal life at that point. So even in death, some elect are still considered the dead.

If you are one who thinks the elect are only a few percent of all humanity, then you are wrong in thinking that. Those disciples on the mount of Olives were redeemed and elect, but also the firstfruits of the NT Covenant and not even a part of the church until the day of Pentecost. No verse claims the original 12 disciples were sealed and unable to reject Jesus Christ. However, the 144k are sealed and separated from the church, because they were still on earth after the Second Coming. They are elect because they are in the Lamb's book of life. They are sealed and remain in the Lamb's book of life. Then the 7th Seal is opened and they are on earth with Jesus as their King during the Trumpets and Thunders. They are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

The church is all the redeemed in Paradise both OT and NT souls. There will be sealed and redeemed humans on earth during the Millennium. Those born in the Millennium are not lost people. They are not in Adam's dead image. They do not even need redemption, because they are not born in sin. But that seems to be lost on modern day theology and eschatology. Those souls currently in sheol do not need redemption. They already have that available. They cannot experience anything but punishment. They cannot change their condition by choice. What they did in their lifetime on earth is already recorded and is what holds them accountable.

Those currently in Paradise cannot choose to sin, nor live in rebellion to God. So what is the issue about the Millennium where sin is removed and there is eternal righteousness? On earth will be the only place where one can choose to disobey. But that means eternal death and separation from God, and they were not in the Lamb's book of life, because they were not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh and in need of redemption. That is also what people forget about pre-flood earth. There were sons of God living on the earth, not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, so not in need of redemption. But when they started to have offspring with Adam's dead corruptible flesh, that offspring became sinners, and that offspring had offspring that became even more wicked, generation after generation.

Good fruit cannot change bad fruit. It is the bad fruit that corrupts all the good fruit. So the sons of God were removed from the earth. Just like the church will be removed prior to the final harvest. The 144k are sealed and like Noah in the ark go through the Trumpets and Thunders. In fact at the Second Coming, those of the second birth are all made sons of God. Now they are as all the Sons of God created on day six, and multiplied and filled the earth prior to the Flood. Adam's offspring restored to the full image of God. Those on earth still only have a soul and body. But those born during the Millennium are not written into the Lamb's book of life. They never die, so never need redeemed. Unlike Adam no human will bring sin into the world, and death by sin.
Jesus is talking to His disciples - whether those who were in His presence then, or those who are in His presence now (He is always present in Spirit).

So who are the elect Jesus is talking about for whose sake the days of the great tribulation will be shortened? Who are the elect Jesus said He will send out His angels to gather immediately after the tribulation of those days?

In your opinion?
 

rwb

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...and in mat 24 which you again omitted, and always will, Jesus said the setting of before the flood is the time frame of the rapture. One taken, one left behind.
Always omit.
It is your only hope to promote your theory.

Matthew 24 likens the time of the coming of Christ to that of the time of Noah. Christ says that just as those alive during the time of Noah were warned of the flood that would come, continued to live their lives as though they knew nothing at all of the judgment to come. So they continued to live as though there was no judgment coming until the flood came and took them all away. According to Christ the same attitude will prevail until the day when the Lord comes again, and those who ignore His warning shall be taken away by the flames of fire that shall come upon the whole earth as the wrath of God consumes every living, breathing creature of the earth. Notice the flood took them all away, while Noah and his family were safe from the flood waters in the ark.

Genesis 6:17 (KJV) And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Genesis 7:1 (KJV)
And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 7:23 (KJV)
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Noah and his family were not taken from the earth, like some of you like to imagine. They were saved through the waters of the flood by obeying God and entering into the ark. The ark did not leave the earth, but carried those within safely through the waters that were upon the earth. While all but Noah and his family were destroyed from the earth, Noah and his family remained alive in the ark that rode upon the water that filled the earth.
 

Zao is life

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What about the great trib are you looking for.???
I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND what is going on with those smoking gun talking points that omitters use to void verses.
It is you and him that needs to show me what you guys are hoping to white out using THOSE DEFINITIONS.
Show me ANY trib, wtath, great trib etc in the pretrib rapture verses.
Show me.
All you "bible experts" need to apply your definition to the pretrib rapture verses .
No clever one liners void any of those verses

in fact, we do see tribulation at the gathering of the Jews in rev 14.
You know, the chapter ya'll explain away.
We don't explain it away. You do.

I already gave you all the verses in the New Testament mentioning the persecution and the tribulation (of the saints), so let's look at what the Bible in general says about the wrath of God and the judgment of God, because the faithful saints who believe in Jesus are promised this:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God has not appointed us to wrath (ὀργή orgḗ), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 5:8-10
"But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) through Him.
For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

WRATH

God's wrath has been poured out upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it has not necessarily been poured out upon the whole world in each case (for example: Exodus 15:3-7).

JUDGMENT

God's wrath being poured out upon a people is always a judgement, since it is always produced by God’s burning anger, but it’s not always a final judgement nor is it always a universal judgment:

A final judgement did not come upon Jerusalem when the wrath of God came upon the city at the time Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Babylon, but a final judgement did come upon Babylon (Jeremiah 50:13) when the wrath of God came upon the city a few decades later.

Hundreds of years later, Jesus prophesied about another judgement that was to come upon the people of Jerusalem, and He mentions this judgement as coming about as a result of God’s wrath:

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (ἀνάγκη anánkē) in the land and wrath (ὀργή orgḗ) upon this people." (Luke 21:23).

Notice the above is not called tribulation in the above verse, but wrath.

UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT

The first time in the Bible that we read about humanity being universally judged is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the elect (Noah and his family) were saved.

The last time we read about humanity being universally judged is in the Revelation, where we read about fire coming down from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

THE 'PRE-TRIBULATION' MISNOMER

Referring to the judgement | wrath of God that is prophesied to come upon unbelievers | the enemies of Christ (which is produced by His wrath) as "the tribulation", or as "the great tribulation" is a complete and utter misnomer. God’s elect people have experienced periods of tribulation more than once. The tribulation that Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not as a result of God's wrath coming upon them, nor was the tribulation Israel experienced under the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt,

but the plagues were being experienced by the Egyptians as a result of God's judgment, in much the same way as the seven last plagues (a.k.a bowls of wrath) will be experienced by those "who had the mark of the beast, and on those who worshiped his image" (Revelation 16:2).

REVELATION 14

Revelation 14 is a chapter talking about the harvest, so we see the Lamb standing on Mount Zion - which in the Revelation is called the holy city, New Jerusalem three times directly (Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; and Revelation 22:19.) + once without saying directly it's talking about New Jerusalem (Rev.11:2 is talking about the holy city - but Rev.11:8 is talking about the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was crucified"). Which one is the holy city?

The the other cities in the Revelation (the city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was crucified, Babylon the Great, and the cities of the nations that fell when the 7th bowl is poured out), are never called "the holy city" or "Mount Zion" in the Revelation.

Mount Zion in the Revelation is always a reference to the holy city, New Jerusalem, populated by believers in Jesus. It's not a physical city. We, the saints, are Mount Zion:

But you have come to Mount Zion
and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the first-born
who are written in Heaven,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
(Hebrews 12:22-24).

In Revelation 14 the words "Mount Zion", "redeemed" (by the blood of Christ), "firsfruits" (to God, before the harvest), following the Lamb wherever He goes (taking up their cross and following Him) and having no guile (no deceptiveness in them) in Rev.14:1-4 are all very significant. It's talking about those who were redeemed and came out from the great tribulation mentioned in verses 12-16 of the same chapter.

They are also mentioned in Rev.7:9-17, the great multitude from all nations, tribes and tongues before the throne of God - which identifies who the 120,000 from each tribe of Israel represent: Benjamin being represented by Judah | the Jews (the two Southern tribes); and the Gentile redeemed being represented by the "ten lost tribes" of the Northern kingdom who disappeared from plain sight after 725 B.C, when they were scattered among the nations and whose descendants intermarried with Gentiles until the time came for the fullness of the Gentiles to be brought in through faith in Christ - which is what Israel (Jacob) on his deathbed told Joseph was going to happen through the seed of Ephraim.

Ephraim eventually became the dominant tribe of the ten Northern tribes, who are collectively called "Ephraim" in Isaiah and in other prophecies also. The Gentiles who believe in Jesus are represented by "Ephraim" in the Revelation, a.k.a the house of Israel. Ephraim is not mentioned by name in Revelation 7, though his brother Manasseh is named in place of Dan. Paul included Gentile believers in the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Ephraim being brought back in (Rom.9:24-26; Hosea 1:9-11). They are the house of Israel in the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Jer.31:31.

The Jews have only one patrairch named in those tribes - Judah. The tribe of Benjamin and Judah were the two tribes of the Southern kingdom, and Benjamin's descendants eventually became amalgamated with Judah (the Jews).

The rest of the chapter of Revelation 14, after the mention of the 144,00 mentioned first in chapter 7, is telling us why they are now in heaven before the throne of God, because it's talking about the last days, the tribulation they (we) will go through (Rev.14:12-14), and the harvest.

The above is simply knowing what scripture teaches about the house of Israel (the 10 tribes of the house of Israel which represent all Gentiles a.k.a "the seed of Ephraim" who are among the redeemed, + the 2 tribes of the house of Judah). It's not explaining anything away.

We do not explain things away after ensuring scripture conforms to false doctrine - pre-tribbers do that. Evidence of this lies in the fact that you still have not answered my challenge where I challenge you to give me any verse or passage in the New Testament where the word tribulation or affliction is talking about what unbelievers will endure when God's judgment | wrath comes upon the world, aside from the two I mentioned.

The truth is you cannot provide more. There are no others. And the only three describing the tribulation as great tribulation are talking about what the elect will endure - i.e the multitude redeemed from their own tribulation at the hands of the beast and his armies.​
 
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Zao is life

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They are believers.
Nobody is disputing that

All believers become one new man in Christ.
We all know that.
Messianic Jews are christians first, ethnicity second, third or fourth.
We all know that.
The more you talk about people's ethnicity the more you are exposing the fact that your mind is set on the things of the flesh, not on the things of the Spirit.