The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

Pre-trib does the same thing where Gentiles push Israel out of the church so they become the church and Israel is this separate non-church entity. This is a form of replacement theology that is scriptural unsound. The faithful (in Christ) Israel became the church an d were the church's first members. Gentiles have to join THAT CHURCH started by Israel (through Christ and the 12 disciples) to become part of the church. No one is replaced and no one is pushed out of the church.

and yet romans 11 says there are 2 groups of people on earth.
We all know there is one new man in Christ.
Nobody disputes that.
Further, the 144k are messianic Jews.
..as paul described himself.
Did paul miss it by daring to call himself a Jew????
You guys are so busy batting the air, it escaped you that The Jew is still a jew even though he is one new man in Christ.

Your doctrine has " Jew" as a bogeyman.
Bible just says what it says.
You guys make up taboos that are silly.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Church will be raptured before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel which contains the great tribulation which is the 5th seal. Then Jesus returns again at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. Jesus remains in the cloud. Then the wrath of God begins. Jesus returns for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom at the end part of wrath.

I well understand your thoughts. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

It is extremely hard to believe the made up bunch of mess that some members have come up with in their own imagination... you come up with concepts that you try to void out other verses...

It is quite amazing that we think very much the same thing of each other, is it not, Rebuilder?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

ALL of romans 11 identifies TWO groups. Jews and gentiles.

Yes, in Romans 9-11, Paul identifies all people as either ethnic Jews or ethnic Gentiles ~ 'Gentiles' being a collective term with regard to all other nations/ethnicities ~ for sure. But God's elect is one group of folks consisting of... well, again, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation... every ethnicity. So, really, Rebuilder, yes, I agree that Paul identifies two groups (really from Romans 1 through Romans 11), but without regard to ethnicity, those who receive mercy and compassion from God, His elect, and those who do not. Throughout Scripture this is the distinction ~ Abel (elect) and Cain (non elect), Isaac (elect) and Ishmael (non elect), Jacob (elect) and Esau (non elect),

Both GROUPS need Christ.

Well, everyone needs Christ, regardless of ethnicity. Sure.

It is plain as day that in Christ there is ONE GROUP.

God's elect, yes. See above. But what's so strange is that you say this, but in the same breath separate them back into two. That's very strange. And very opposite what Paul makes so clear.

This world has Two INSEPARABLE groups as we are taught in romans. Reconcile that FACT , then proceed from there.

That's the problem, Rebuilder. That's not a fact at at all. The fact is that God's elect is one group in Christ.

Hint; God has a separate covenant with one of those groups.

LOL! God has one everlasting covenant with His elect. This covenant is revealed in new and better ~ cumulative, from Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to David ~ ways throughout history, and finally manifest in its fullness in the Person of Jesus Christ, in Whom all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen.'

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

you come up with concepts that you try to void out other verses.
Yes, we can all see that verse.
We can all see the Jews and gentiles, plus the carnal Christians that miss the rapture are on earth during the trib, wrath , or whatever you want to call the ushering in of the 4 horsemen released by heaven in their wrath.
Nobody disputes it.

There is no mention of "carnal christians" missing the rapture in Revelation chapter 14.

Bow your knee before the Lord today and pray and confess His specific commandment - Rev 22:18

“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright Morning Star.”

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

(Nothing May Be Added or Removed)

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The name fits.

So wear it.

Loser.

Bearer of false witness.

Why do you guys go to the low ground with your personal attacks???
What a shame

 

[rebuilder 454]

It identifies all people as either ethnic Jews or ethnic Gentiles ~ 'Gentiles' being a collective term with regard to all other nations/ethnicities ~ yes. But God's elect is one group of folks consisting of... well, again, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation... every ethnicity. So, really, Rebuilder, yes, I agree that Paul identifies two groups (really from Romans 1 through Romans 11), but without regard to ethnicity, those who receive mercy and compassion from God, His elect, and those who do not.


Well, everyone needs Christ, regardless of ethnicity. Sure.


God's elect, yes. But what's so strange is that you say this, but in the same breath separate them back into two. That's very strange.


That's the problem, Rebuilder. That's not a fact at at all. The fact is that God's elect is one group in Christ.


LOL! God has one everlasting covenant with His elect. This covenant is revealed in new and better ~ cumulative, from Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to David ~ ways throughout history, and finally manifest in its fullness in the Person of Jesus Christ, in Whom all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen.'

Grace and peace to you.

Paul named the two groups.
He designated himself as a jew.
He designated himself as a christian.
Look at your answers to those facts.
You can not grasp the two exist.
What you are doing is trying to make a multifaceted concept/ truth into one dimension.
Lots of concepts in the word are multifaceted truths.
That may help

 

[rebuilder 454]

It identifies all people as either ethnic Jews or ethnic Gentiles ~ 'Gentiles' being a collective term with regard to all other nations/ethnicities ~ yes. But God's elect is one group of folks consisting of... well, again, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation... every ethnicity. So, really, Rebuilder, yes, I agree that Paul identifies two groups (really from Romans 1 through Romans 11), but without regard to ethnicity, those who receive mercy and compassion from God, His elect, and those who do not.


Well, everyone needs Christ, regardless of ethnicity. Sure.


God's elect, yes. But what's so strange is that you say this, but in the same breath separate them back into two. That's very strange.


That's the problem, Rebuilder. That's not a fact at at all. The fact is that God's elect is one group in Christ.


LOL! God has one everlasting covenant with His elect. This covenant is revealed in new and better ~ cumulative, from Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to David ~ ways throughout history, and finally manifest in its fullness in the Person of Jesus Christ, in Whom all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen.'

Grace and peace to you.

""That's the problem, Rebuilder. That's not a fact at at all. The fact is that God's elect is one group in Christ.""
Wow.
Even when i spell it out, you repeat what i just laid out and act like you came up with it.
SMH
YES I TOLD YOU THAT.
WE ALL KNOW THAT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is quite amazing that we think very much the same thing of each other, is it not, Rebuilder?

Grace and peace to you.

None of your teachers/ like minded students, invoke the verses i bring.
That is why there is s scramble to VOID The 144k, the 10 virgin parable, reframe lot and noah as NON prewrath dynamics, avoid the setting of peacetime, normal life, and commerce at the rapture, and TOTALLY REFRAME the 144k as something other than vividly depicted.

 

[David in NJ]

Paul named the two groups.
He designated himself as a jew.
He designated himself as a christian.
Look at your answers to those facts.
You can not grasp the two exist.
What you are doing is trying to make a multifaceted concept/ truth into one dimension.
Lots of concepts in the word are multifaceted truths.
That may help

Paul never designated himself as a 'christian'.

As a Jew he received his Messiah and Savior whereby his sins were washed away and he also received the Promise of the Father = Holy Spirit

Now Paul becomes a 'True Jew' in the Spirit where God always intended the Jewish People to Dwell and Walk IN.

Gentiles who receive the Lion of the Tribe of Judah as their Savior are adopted into the Israel of God and become FULL and COMPLETE Members of the Household of God, lacking no good thing in Yeshua HaMoshiach their Savior.

Galatians ch3
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In our flesh their are "Jews and Gentiles" but not in the SPIRIT.
For if you are in Christ, then you are a "son of God".

Notice what the Apostle John says of this: 1 John 3:1-3

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are sons of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

QUESTION: What did the Apostle John omit from his Epistle and specifically from 1 John 3:1-3?

 

[PinSeeker]

Why do you guys go to the low ground with your personal attacks???

You've done the same thing, Rebuilder. Not with me, I don't think, but with regard to personal attacks, you're as guilty as those you level this at.

Paul named the two groups.
He designated himself as a jew.
He designated himself as a christian.

So he's Jewish, but he is one of God's elect ~ a true Jew, one who is not merely a Jew outwardly but a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter (Romans 2:28-29) ~ and therefore in Christ, so a Christian, and part of God's true Israel, which consists of people of all ethnicities. This is what Paul says over and over again in all his letters, that there is no longer any distinction whatsoever with regard to ethnicity.

Look at your answers to those facts. You can not grasp the two exist.

See above.

What you are doing is trying to make a multifaceted concept/ truth into one dimension.

Because that's exactly what Paul does.

Lots of concepts in the word are multifaceted truths.

I do agree that God's truths are "multifaceted," but they do not contradict one another.

""That's the problem, Rebuilder. That's not a fact at at all. The fact is that God's elect is one group in Christ.""
Wow.
Even when i spell it out, you repeat what i just laid out and act like you came up with it.
SMH
YES I TOLD YOU THAT.
WE ALL KNOW THAT.

I know very well what you said, Rebuilder, and never "acted like I was the one that came up with" anything. The point was, Rebuilder, that, yes, you did state that, but you continue to hold on to that separation, which is wholly antithetical to what Paul is saying in Romans, even while at the same time talking about this one group in Christ.

None of your teachers/ like minded students, invoke the verses i bring.

Untrue. I'm not accusing you of lying, but, well, in conversations such as this, I hear over and over again the strains of Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968). Now, if you want to "bring it" to me, we can have that conversation. I do remember speaking directly to at least a couple of the passages you "brought" (Noah's flood and the supposed "pre-flood dynamic" as well as Jesus's parable in Matthew 24 in post 1119), to which I never received from you any response.

That is why there is s scramble to VOID The 144k, the 10 virgin parable, reframe lot and noah as NON prewrath dynamics, avoid the setting of peacetime, normal life, and commerce at the rapture, and TOTALLY REFRAME the 144k as something other than vividly depicted.

Well, not at all to some of these things, and correctly framing others. Um, "commerce at the rapture?" LOL! No one will be removed from anything, Rebuilder.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

 

[rwb]

Nope.
They are ethnic Jews sealed against the flying scorpions. Resurrected spirits are not able to be stung.
.
The patriarchs were not virgins either.
Look at all the components you need to change for your modifications of the facts surrounding the 144k.
Whew.
So glad i am not in that doctrinal trap you have made up.

NOPE! You show how little understanding of Scripture you possess! Why don't you show me "all the components I need to change"....surrounding the 144,000? You appear to be all opinion with no truth! How could you ever find yourself in a Biblical doctrinal trap since you have no understanding of Biblical doctrine??? The trap that fits you well is IMAGINATION!!!

 

[ewq1938]

The 144,000 before God at the end.​

or is it the beginning?

In Rev 14, they are with Christ on Earth so the second coming has happened.

 

[rwb]

It is extremely hard to believe the made up bunch of mess that some members have come up with in their own imagination

It's even harder to believe how some, like you, try to force a literal reading into the Revelation of Jesus Christ. A book that is replete with symbolism. Bet you interpret Rev 12 as a literal great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads literally as well! If you don't you should, because if you insist on literalizing some parts while symbolizing other parts, it shows you make up what does not fit your opinions!

 

[rwb]

ALL of romans 11 identifies TWO groups.
Jews and gentiles.
TWO groups.
Both GROUPS need Christ.
You rock along in partial truth.
It is plain as day that in christ there is ONE GROUP.
This world has Two INSEPARABLE groups as we are taught in romans.

Reconcile that FACT , then proceed from there.

Hint; God has a separate covenant with one of those groups.

You haven't answered the question I asked? Where does Paul, for that matter the Bible show the blindness of Israel shall be lifted once the last of the Gentiles have come in???? Of course, you cannot present a single verse from Scripture that agrees with your unbiblical doctrine.

You reconcile that FACT, then we will see how you cannot proceed from there, because you cannot prove what you allege!

 

[PinSeeker]

The 144,000 before God at the end.​

or is it the beginning?

Yes. :) The close of this age, the beginning of the age to come, which will have no end. I... think you agree... Right? :)

Grace and peace to you, quietthinker.

 

[David in NJ]

You haven't answered the question I asked? Where does Paul, for that matter the Bible show the blindness of Israel shall be lifted once the last of the Gentiles have come in???? Of course, you cannot present a single verse from Scripture that agrees with your unbiblical doctrine.

You reconcile that FACT, then we will see how you cannot proceed from there, because you cannot prove what you allege!

Romans chapter 11 clearly expresses the FACT that the blindness of the unsaved nation of earthbound Israel will be delivered.

The Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 11 is confirming the Prophets and the very words of the LORD Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:37-39

 

[rwb]

In Rev 14, they are with Christ on Earth so the second coming has happened.

Mt. Sion is in heaven, not on this earth. The 144,000 after being sealed with the Spirit in Rev 7, have gone from being under the altar (Rev 6) to heaven a spiritual body of believers alive, living souls now in heaven with the Lord.

Revelation 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[rwb]

Yes. :) The close of this age, the beginning of the age to come, which will have no end. I... think you agree... Right? :)

Grace and peace to you, quietthinker.

Yes, but the age to come for the faithful begins in heaven when we are born again of His Spirit in us. Then when we physically die, our spirit alive, a living soul returns to God in heaven. The 144,000 are the first to ascend to heaven a living spiritual body, so the 144,000 comes at the beginning of the age to come after the resurrection and ascension of Christ to heaven.

 

[rwb]

Romans chapter 11 clearly expresses the FACT that the blindness of the unsaved nation of earthbound Israel will be delivered.

The Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 11 is confirming the Prophets and the very words of the LORD Jesus Christ in Matthew 23:37-39

Where in Ro 11 does Paul clearly express that blindness in part shall be lifted after the fullness of Gentiles have come in?

How are these words of Christ a confirmation that blindness in part shall be lifted? I read where Christ, speaking to Jerusalem tells them "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate"?

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

If these unrepentant Jews died without saying "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord", they died in unbelief and are therefore lost forever. Today is the day of salvation. Now, since Christ has come is the time for hearing His Gospel proclaimed in the power of His Spirit, and all who believe will say "Blessed be the name of the Lord"! This passage in no way proves that blindness in part happening to Israel shall be lifted after the last of the Gentiles have come in.

Paul says, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Then he writes, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written". If Paul is telling us that blindness in part for ethnic Israel shall be lifted after the fullness of Gentiles have come in, why does Paul tell us all Israel can only be saved through the inclusion of Gentiles? Paul writes this so that we might understand that "all Israel" written here cannot be ethnically Israel or he would not write they won't be saved until the fullness of Gentiles completes them. Paul writes this so that we might know that "all Israel" to be saved are the "Israel of God" which are neither Jews of faith alone, nor Gentiles of faith alone, but together the two are "all Israel" made up of people of faith from every nation of the world. No longer Jew or Gentile, but Israel of God where circumcision avails nothing, nor uncircumcision. The two become ONE . And ALL of that Israel shall be saved after the last Gentile comes in to complete the spiritual Kingdom of God. After that the seventh trumpet shall sound that time given this earth for people to be saved shall be no longer.