The 144,000 before God at the end.

[PinSeeker]

...there are two raptures...

Oh my. :) Yeah, there are all sorts of crazy beliefs out there... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

What tribe are you from?

Church.

Not from.

In.

 

[The Light]

Dispensationalism is a popular and widespread way of reading the Bible. It originated in the nineteenth century in the teaching of John Nelson Darby and was popularized in the United States through the Bible Conference movement. Its growth was spurred on even more through the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, which was published in 1909. Scofield’s Bible contributed to the spread of dispensationalism because it included study notes written from a distinctively dispensationalist perspective. The founding of Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924 by Lewis Sperry Chafer provided an academic institution for the training of pastors and missionaries in the dispensationalist tradition. Some of the most notable dispensationalist authors of the twentieth century, including John F. Walvoord, Charles C. Ryrie, and J. Dwight Pentecost, taught at Dallas Seminary.

Dispensationalist theology is perhaps best known for its distinctive eschatological doctrines, particularly the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. According to this doctrine, this present church age will be followed by a seven-year period of tribulation. Before the tribulation begins (thus “pre-tribulation”), the church will be caught up to heaven where believers will be with Christ until the second coming, which occurs at the end of the tribulation. At that time, they will return with Christ, who will then inaugurate His millennial kingdom (dispensationalists are thus also premillennialists).

Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church. Every other distinctively dispensationalist doctrine rests on this idea. What this distinction means for dispensationalists is that there are two peoples of God. Israel is one of these and consists of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The church is the other, and it consists of all those and only those (whether Jew or gentile) who are saved between the Day of Pentecost and the rapture. Part of the reason for the pre-tribulation rapture is to remove the church from earth so that God can begin dealing with national Israel again.

Dispensationalism differs from Reformed covenant theology in a number of ways, but the most significant is this idea of two peoples of God. Covenant theology affirms that there is one people of God and thus continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. Covenant theology is not, as some dispensationalists assert, “replacement theology” because in covenant theology, the church is not technically replacing Israel. The church is the organic continuation of the Old Testament people of God. The oneness of the people of God is evident by an examination of several New Testament texts.

Consider first the olive tree analogy in Romans 11. In this passage, Paul is addressing gentile believers and urging them not to be arrogant toward Jewish believers. He uses the illustration of an olive tree to explain. Note that in the illustration there is one good olive tree. Paul explains that branches were broken off this olive tree and gentile “wild shoots” were grafted into it. The one olive tree represents the people of God that has long existed. Unbelieving Jewish branches (e.g., Pharisees) have been broken off this tree by God, leaving only believing branches (e.g., Jesus’ Apostles). Believing gentiles have been grafted into this one tree so that it now consists of believing Jews and gentiles. This tree is the church. If Paul were illustrating the dispensationalist doctrine, we would have numerous gentile trees and one Jewish tree (Israel). God would then plant a new tree (the church). He would take believing Jews from the Israel tree and believing gentiles from the gentile trees and graft them into this one new tree. Paul says nothing like this. The one tree that existed in the Old Testament continues, but now God has removed unbelieving Jews and grafted believing gentiles into it.

Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church.
In this light, consider what Paul says to gentile believers in Ephesians 2:11-22. Paul first tells these gentile believers what they used to be: “separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (v. 12). If that’s what they used to be, the implication is that the opposite of each is true of these gentile believers now. They are now part of the commonwealth of Israel and partakers of the covenants precisely because they’ve been grafted into the one tree representing the one people of God. But there’s more than implication. Paul goes on to say explicitly in verses 19 and following that these gentiles are “no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.”

Dispensationalists have a difficult time grasping this because of their idea that the seed of Abraham is only the physical offspring of Abraham. Again, Paul begs to differ. In Galatians 3:16, he explains that “the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring.” He then explicitly identifies the offspring as Jesus Christ. But note what he then adds a few sentences later in verse 29: “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” Paul defines Abraham’s seed in terms of Jesus Christ. Christ is a literal physical descendant of Abraham. However, because believers, whether Jew or gentile, are united to Christ, we too are Abraham’s offspring if we belong to Christ.

Does Paul continue to use the terms Israel, church, and gentile in the New Testament? Of course. But not in the way that these terms are used by dispensationalists. He continues to speak of ethnic Jews and ethnic gentiles, both inside and outside the church. But he does not do so in a way that results in two peoples of God. There is one tree in the Old Testament that consists primarily of ethnic Jews, although some gentiles (e.g., Ruth) are brought in. This is the one tree that exists when Christ comes. He doesn’t chop it down, and He doesn’t plant a new tree. He prunes the unbelieving Jewish branches off, leaving only the believing Jewish branches. He then begins to graft believing gentiles into this one tree. This tree with ingrafted gentile branches does not “replace” the old tree. These gentiles are now part of the old tree by faith in Jesus Christ.

If the biblical teaching regarding the one people of God is allowed to stand, all of the distinctive dispensationalist doctrines that rest on the doctrine of two peoples of God ~ including a "rapture" and a future-only tribulation and millennium ~ are left without any foundation.

Grace and peace to all.

Are you taking credit for this or should we give credit to Mathison.

The problem with Supersessionism, also known as Covenant Theology or Replacement Theology is that it failed to believe that God would keep His promise to Israel. It jumps right to end where both folds end up in one-fold but fails to recognize Gods timing of these events.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Those that hear His voice are the sheep.

John 10
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

The door is open and the sheep hear His voice and come in. But other sheep not of this fold He will also bring.

There are two raptures, one for the current Church and one for the 12 tribes of Israel. That's why there are first fruits of the second harvest.

 

[rwb]

In the PURE definition of the phrase = we are TRUE NEW AGE-rs, by which we have entered beyond the Veil by the Precious Blood of Christ, being Born-Again by the Eternal Spirit of God unto Eternal Life where we cry "ABBA-FATHER".

Therefore JESUS says:
Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

What I find to be helpful in this passage is how Jesus says "they are equal to the angels" as He speaks of the resurrection from the dead. If Jesus was referring to the physical resurrection when our body becomes immortal and incorruptible, it makes no sense that He says we shall be as are the angels of God who do not marry being without physical substance in heaven. I've come to believe the resurrection from the dead that Christ is speaking of is the "first resurrection", the resurrection of Christ that we must have part in before we die to overcome the second death. It is in having part in the resurrection of Christ according to grace through faith (born again) that we have assurance that death of our body cannot keep our spirit from possessing eternal life through His Spirit in us.

When Christ says "they shall be equal to the angels" He is speaking of what becomes of our eternal spirit when we physically die. Christ is here affirming the words of Paul in 1Cor 15 where he writes when our body is sown in death, we rise a spiritual body. Paul gave this answer anticipating some would ask how the dead shall be raised up, and with what body. He goes into great detail to show us that physical death cannot keep our eternal spirit, through the Spirit of Christ in us, from ascending to heaven a spiritual body of believers. Where we are living souls waiting for the sounding of the seventh trumpet when our body too shall be resurrected and made alive again through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ.

 

[covenantee]

Dispensationalism is a popular and widespread way of reading the Bible. It originated in the nineteenth century in the teaching of John Nelson Darby and was popularized in the United States through the Bible Conference movement. Its growth was spurred on even more through the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, which was published in 1909. Scofield’s Bible contributed to the spread of dispensationalism because it included study notes written from a distinctively dispensationalist perspective. The founding of Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924 by Lewis Sperry Chafer provided an academic institution for the training of pastors and missionaries in the dispensationalist tradition. Some of the most notable dispensationalist authors of the twentieth century, including John F. Walvoord, Charles C. Ryrie, and J. Dwight Pentecost, taught at Dallas Seminary.

Dispensationalist theology is perhaps best known for its distinctive eschatological doctrines, particularly the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. According to this doctrine, this present church age will be followed by a seven-year period of tribulation. Before the tribulation begins (thus “pre-tribulation”), the church will be caught up to heaven where believers will be with Christ until the second coming, which occurs at the end of the tribulation. At that time, they will return with Christ, who will then inaugurate His millennial kingdom (dispensationalists are thus also premillennialists).

Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church. Every other distinctively dispensationalist doctrine rests on this idea. What this distinction means for dispensationalists is that there are two peoples of God. Israel is one of these and consists of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The church is the other, and it consists of all those and only those (whether Jew or gentile) who are saved between the Day of Pentecost and the rapture. Part of the reason for the pre-tribulation rapture is to remove the church from earth so that God can begin dealing with national Israel again.

Dispensationalism differs from Reformed covenant theology in a number of ways, but the most significant is this idea of two peoples of God. Covenant theology affirms that there is one people of God and thus continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. Covenant theology is not, as some dispensationalists assert, “replacement theology” because in covenant theology, the church is not technically replacing Israel. The church is the organic continuation of the Old Testament people of God. The oneness of the people of God is evident by an examination of several New Testament texts.

Consider first the olive tree analogy in Romans 11. In this passage, Paul is addressing gentile believers and urging them not to be arrogant toward Jewish believers. He uses the illustration of an olive tree to explain. Note that in the illustration there is one good olive tree. Paul explains that branches were broken off this olive tree and gentile “wild shoots” were grafted into it. The one olive tree represents the people of God that has long existed. Unbelieving Jewish branches (e.g., Pharisees) have been broken off this tree by God, leaving only believing branches (e.g., Jesus’ Apostles). Believing gentiles have been grafted into this one tree so that it now consists of believing Jews and gentiles. This tree is the church. If Paul were illustrating the dispensationalist doctrine, we would have numerous gentile trees and one Jewish tree (Israel). God would then plant a new tree (the church). He would take believing Jews from the Israel tree and believing gentiles from the gentile trees and graft them into this one new tree. Paul says nothing like this. The one tree that existed in the Old Testament continues, but now God has removed unbelieving Jews and grafted believing gentiles into it.

Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church.
In this light, consider what Paul says to gentile believers in Ephesians 2:11-22. Paul first tells these gentile believers what they used to be: “separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (v. 12). If that’s what they used to be, the implication is that the opposite of each is true of these gentile believers now. They are now part of the commonwealth of Israel and partakers of the covenants precisely because they’ve been grafted into the one tree representing the one people of God. But there’s more than implication. Paul goes on to say explicitly in verses 19 and following that these gentiles are “no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.”

Dispensationalists have a difficult time grasping this because of their idea that the seed of Abraham is only the physical offspring of Abraham. Again, Paul begs to differ. In Galatians 3:16, he explains that “the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring.” He then explicitly identifies the offspring as Jesus Christ. But note what he then adds a few sentences later in verse 29: “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” Paul defines Abraham’s seed in terms of Jesus Christ. Christ is a literal physical descendant of Abraham. However, because believers, whether Jew or gentile, are united to Christ, we too are Abraham’s offspring if we belong to Christ.

Does Paul continue to use the terms Israel, church, and gentile in the New Testament? Of course. But not in the way that these terms are used by dispensationalists. He continues to speak of ethnic Jews and ethnic gentiles, both inside and outside the church. But he does not do so in a way that results in two peoples of God. There is one tree in the Old Testament that consists primarily of ethnic Jews, although some gentiles (e.g., Ruth) are brought in. This is the one tree that exists when Christ comes. He doesn’t chop it down, and He doesn’t plant a new tree. He prunes the unbelieving Jewish branches off, leaving only the believing Jewish branches. He then begins to graft believing gentiles into this one tree. This tree with ingrafted gentile branches does not “replace” the old tree. These gentiles are now part of the old tree by faith in Jesus Christ.

If the biblical teaching regarding the one people of God is allowed to stand, all of the distinctive dispensationalist doctrines that rest on the doctrine of two peoples of God ~ including a "rapture" and a future-only tribulation and millennium ~ are left without any foundation.

Grace and peace to all.

Amen, bro.

There is a word which describes a "doctrine" which is built upon a foundation of racial distinction and division.

We all know the word.

 

[The Light]

Certainly.

Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 Corinthians 1
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


The seal identifies the servants of God, i.e. His Church, which began in the OT. Acts 7:38
They number vastly beyond 144,000.

Brother, this does not prove that the 144,000 represents those in the old testament. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest. When they are sealed they are believers. So when the 144,000 first fruits are sealed you know there are 144,000 from the twelve tribes that have become believers. Additionally they are before the throne of God as first fruits.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Hosea 9 tells us that God plan for Israel was that the fathers of Israel were to be the first fruits of the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME. But they served Baalpeor and would not be the first harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Gentiles, the wild branchs, are grafted into the olive tree as the natural branchs are broken off. But the natural branches will be grafted in again when they believe. So the 144,000 are the first fruits of Israel believing again.

All this is about timing. There will be a harvest of the Gentiles first and then there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth when the wrath of God begins when the first trumpet sounds after the 7th seal is opened.

 

[covenantee]

Brother, this does not prove that the 144,000 represents those in the old testament.

Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Brother, those are OT.

 

[PinSeeker]

Are you taking credit for this or should we give credit to Mathison.

Well, I did add a couple of short clarifications of my own in there, so, to answer your question... yes. :) Not important, really; right is right. :) Meant to provide the link and forgot. Happy to do so here: Ligonier

The problem with Supersessionism, also known as Covenant Theology or Replacement Theology...

One of the main points is that Covenant theology is the very opposite of supersessionism and replacement theology.

is that it failed to believe that God would keep His promise to Israel.

All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

It jumps right to end where both folds end up in one-fold but fails to recognize Gods timing of these events.

It fails to misinterpret God's timing... :)

There are two raptures...

There is not even one, let alone two.

That's why there are first fruits of the second harvest.

Ah, firstfruits. Another terribly misunderstood (by many) concept. It should help to (and you might agree) that we are to offer our firstfruits ~ or best, with regard to offerings ~ to the Lord. So... on a much greater level, of course... we, as believers, God's elect, are His (God's) firstfruits. The incredible truth of the gospel is that God makes us into His firstfruits, the first and best of what is given to Him... Which is what Jesus is saying in John 10, that "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." The Lord makes us ~ all believers, regardless of time or ethnicity ~ into the first and best of what He owns.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

Brother, this does not prove that the 144,000 represents those in the old testament. The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest. When they are sealed they are believers. So when the 144,000 first fruits are sealed you know there are 144,000 from the twelve tribes that have become believers. Additionally they are before the throne of God as first fruits.

Does it not make sense to you that this small number symbolizes the remnant of Old that Paul says shall be saved? Yes, they are Old Covenant believers in the Messiah who was foretold to come. And yes, they are firstfruits, which the sealing before the Spirit is universally poured out shows. They are before the throne of God since they ascended to heaven with the Lord when His spirit ascended to heaven. That is what being firstfruits unto God is, being the first believers to be spiritually raised from the power of the grave that held them. Even those still alive after the first advent of Christ, are a 'kind' of firstfruits of the Spirit in them. Because the first century believers are the firstfruits for having the Spirit IN them before they physically died.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

James 1:18 (KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The Gentiles, the wild branchs, are grafted into the olive tree as the natural branchs are broken off. But the natural branches will be grafted in again when they believe. So the 144,000 are the first fruits of Israel believing again.

The branches broken off may be grafted back again IF not WHEN they do not continue in unbelief.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

There are two raptures, one for the current Church and one for the 12 tribes of Israel.

Or, Three?

here is not even one, let alone two.

Actually, there are three:

A) God's Other Different Context of Heavenly Mystery / Grace for The Body Of
Christ (Romans - Philemon) - In God's "Revelation Of The Mystery" we find our
one Mystery resurrection / 'rapture' ( #1 ):

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall​

sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."​

(1Co 15:51-52)​

+​

"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of​

the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in​

the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with The LORD.​

Wherefore comfort one another with these words."​

Very comforting Words for the Body Of Christ, All of God's Grace ambassadors being
Recalled To Heaven, ( see below ) Before...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online)

B) God's Context of earthly prophecy / covenants / law for Israel
(Daniel, Matthew, and Revelation)

...Before God Declares Judgment and War On an UNbelieving world, which is known as:

The Time Of JACOB's (Israel's) Trouble, where there are Two More 'raptures':

(#2): The two witnesses "ascended up to heaven" (Rev 11:11-12 KJV), And:

(#3): 144,000 "sealed on earth" (Rev 7:4-8 KJV), and then "redeemed {raptured?}
from the earth, And found before "The Throne Of God" (14:3-5 KJV)
+
Two prophesied 'resurrections' are found in Rev 20: 5-6 and 20:12.

Conclusion: Total 'raptures' = Three, Correct?
----------------

C) All Related Scriptures Compared, (Rule #5) Rightly Divided are here:

God's Great GRACE Departure

Amen.

 

[PinSeeker]

Or, Three? Actually, there are three... Total 'raptures' = Three, Correct?

No. :) Not even one. No one is removed from anything. In this post, GA, with all due respect, you're conflating at least two or three different things.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Brother, those are OT.

This is in the future. God is going to regraft the olive tree with natural branches.

 

[covenantee]

This is in the future. God is going to regraft the olive tree with natural branches.

It was in the past. They were already sealed.

 

[Keraz]

This is in the future. God is going to regraft the olive tree with natural branches.

Nowhere is this said to happen with Jewish Israel. Their sins are so great, they will die for it. Isaiah 22:14
However; it will be all the Spiritual Israelites of God, Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will go with Jesus into the Millennium. Revelation 7:9

 

[Zao is life]

So your Bible has green buckets, and tractors?

I pointed out what it reads in the Bible that most people can look up for themselves. You have what, a blink of an eye, and it is over?

I didn't know and still don't know where to start or end regarding what you said in your post because you have half of scripture contradicting the other half, and you've got the cart before the horse and the wrong stuff in the cart, and the horse tied to the back of the cart facing the other way.

So I settled for being sarcastic, which was easier but not acceptable. I apologize. I should have just not responded.

 

[Zao is life]

The Resurrection of the "dead in Christ" is the same Resurrection of His Church/Bride/Elect/Saints

There is only one Resurrection for the Justified in Christ which will ONLY occur when JESUS Prophecies in Matthew 24 are fulfilled prior to His Wrath.

Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Christ will Return only when "the End" is completed as desired by the FATHER = Gospel, Acts, Romans ch11, Ephesians, Revelation ch6

The above makes it clear that there isn't going to be any dispute or confusion about who the beast is or what the mark of the beast is, because we are told that Babylon the Great will be destroyed in one hour by the same ten kings who will rule with the beast for one hour and who will hate that harlot.

The kings of the earth who committed fornication with the harlot will lament and wail for her when the ten kings have destroyed her.

That beast has a false prophet and ten kings helping him. The harlot will have fallen.

When we can see the framework for what it is, then we will know who it is when the time comes. Those who have the seal of God on their foreheads will not worship the beast or receive his mark, and will be killed. The resurrection and rapture cannot come before then because the inhabitants of the the world are going to be separated by who has the seal of God vs who has the mark of the beast.​

 

[Zao is life]

This is in the future. God is going to regraft the olive tree with natural branches.

And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.

And so all Israel (Jews and gentiles in Christ) shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins. -- Romans 11:23, 26-27.

The Deliverer came out of Zion and took away their sins, and our sins, 2,000 years ago. Since then all Jews who did not believe in Jesus but turned from their unbelief to faith in Christ have been grafted in again. The grafting in is not future. Are you saying that Jews who have been followers of Christ for the last 2,000 years are not grafted in again?

The root of the Olive tree is the faith of Abraham in the Word of God. That root supports all who believe, whether Jew or Gentile. Only in the 1st century were there those who had never been broken off through unbelief - they were a remnant.

Israel is in Christ. He is the Word of God, the root of the Olive tree. There is no future "grafting in" of 144,000. The Jews are 1/12th of Israel. Benjamin is 1/12th, and the seed of Benjamin became amalgamated with the Jews over time. Where are the other 120,000, i.e the 10/12ths of Israel?​

 

[Zao is life]

Pre-trib does the same thing where Gentiles push Israel out of the church so they become the church and Israel is this separate non-church entity. This is a form of replacement theology that is scriptural unsound. The faithful (in Christ) Israel became the church an d were the church's first members. Gentiles have to join THAT CHURCH started by Israel (through Christ and the 12 disciples) to become part of the church. No one is replaced and no one is pushed out of the church.

The unbelieving natural seed were broken off through their unbelief in the first century but the remnant remained. What they can't understand is that just because there is a new temple, this does mean there is a new Israel. There is a new temple - and the living citizens of Israel ARE that temple.

 

[Zao is life]

69 weeks have occurred before Messiah was cut off. Were these 69 weeks happening to the people of Daniel?




69 weeks have happened. The 70th week will happen after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.


And it will.


Who did the 69 weeks that have already occurred point to?

When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will deal with His CHOSEN.

There can be no fullness of the Gentiles according to your theology, because according to your theology, "Jacob (the seed of Jacob) is Israel. Not the Gentiles". So Ephraim and Manasseh are also not the seed of Jacob because they were Gentiles born in Egypt to an Egyptian mother.

There can be no fullness of the Gentiles according to your theology, because according to your theology, no Gentile can be the seed of Jacob, the seed of Abraham.

According to your theology - not according to God's first promise to Abraham regarding his seed, nor according to john the Baptist, nor according to Jesus, nor according to Paul or the apostles.

 

[Timtofly]

Mt. Sion is in heaven, not on this earth. The 144,000 after being sealed with the Spirit in Rev 7, have gone from being under the altar (Rev 6) to heaven a spiritual body of believers alive, living souls now in heaven with the Lord.

Under the alter is not a literal place nor location. It is symbolic of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Every soul currently not in sheol is under the alter, as in redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Those goats in Matthew 25 are not under the alter. The sheep are under the alter, after they are judged as sheep and redeemed from mankind. They are then on the sea of glass which is a literal place. The church is in Paradise. Paradise is not the sea of glass. Revelation 15:2-3

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints."

"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

Revelation 4:5-6

Those who get the victory over the beast are those under the alter, as in redeemed. The church got the victory over the beast throughout the OT and NT up until this very day. They are all souls under the alter. All those under the alter, currently in Paradise, are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those currently alive on the earth born from above, the second birth, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh are under the alter, just not redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, yet.

The Church is removed at the Second Coming. The 144k are still on the earth, then sealed by the angels to withstand the time of Jacob's trouble, the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is also on the earth with the 144k and all the angels. The 144k go and exist wherever Jesus is; from the moment they are sealed, and for ever, after the Second Coming, the 6th Seal. They are also souls under the alter, because they remain in the Lamb's book of life, as they are sealed prior to the 7th Seal being opened.

After the 7th Seal is opened is when names are blotted out. The goats are the first to be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Those under the alter are also forever named in the Lamb's book of life. Most call them the elect.

In Revelation 14, the reason why the 144k are always with Jesus and on heavenly mount Zion is that they are waiting for Satan's 42 months to be over that started in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Do they have to actually sit on white horses for time to pass on earth? Probably not. It will be them returning in Revelation 19. They don't co-reign with Satan on earth. The sheep and wheat waiting on the sea of glass also return with Jesus and the 144k. They are the first generation of the Millennial Kingdom. They are called the firstfruits of the final harvest. The sheep and wheat is the entire harvest. Those beheaded are the gleanings during Satan's 42 months.