NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[Zao is life]

Abraham was indeed shown the promise . IT DO and it DOES POINT TO JESUS CHRIST ALONE .
any jew or any gentile that cometh not to HIM , IS DENIED .
The promise given unto the jews , IS JESUS CHRIST . If one denies HIM , they done denied GOD .
Now lets examine well the two commandments given which actually would fullfill the entire law .
JESUS taught them . HE said to LOVE the LORD thy GOD with ALL thy mind , heart , soul , understanding
and to love your neighbor as yourself .
So lets take heed to the first part . And allow me some parting words which are gonna SMASH flat
todays universal so called love religoin .
DOES a man really love GOD . Can a person truly love GOD and yet reject JESUS CHRIST .
Well lets allow JESUS to answer that .
HAD YOU LOVED GOD YOU WOULD HAVE LOVED ME FOR I CAME FORTH OF GOD .
Yeah todays universal sin accepting and many path accepting fake love to GOD , IS A LIE FROM HELL and i wont be heeding it neither .
THERE IS NO other plan of salvation , no other love plan that can lead to GOD . FOR any love
that denies that one must believe JESUS IS THE CHRIST and allows them false satanic religoins to remain in thier satan serving religoin
and just hollers OH love ye one another and do good , IS A LIE FROM SATAN .
PS any other religoin IS of satan and that be a fact too . THERE is but one way to THE FATHER , IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE .
Yeah , i really cant stand the false love stuff i see getting taught in most churches today and it has and is merging
us in with other religions too . THE PROMISE GOD MADE to abraham DID POINT TO JESUS CHRIST . YES INDEED IT DID .

I agree. I was just thinking about that today, remembering how much I enjoy watching older American evangelical singers from a few decades ago. Yet most of them are into this false "love" where faith in Christ for salvation is somehow not applicable to the Jews. It's all oowee-gowee "love" but not a real love for the truth of the gospel as it applies to all people.

In fact, we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Who are the greatest enemies of "the Saturday people and the Sunday people"?

Christ's love is not the same as the oowee-goowee feelings (especially for Jewish people and for the state of Israel) coming from Dispensationalism and a big part of the Evangelical Christian churches.

Unbelievers - both Jew and Gentile - perish in their wilderness of unbelief, but in the case of Jewish people, too many Christians just don't care - as long as they can "love" them with their oowee-goowee feelings towards Jews and Israel.

What Hamas terrorists did to the people of Israel in the Southern part of Israel was barbaric and beyond evil. I support Israel because it's a civilized country and since it was handed to the Jews by the (united) nations of the world, it's their country. I support their right to defend themselves.

But that should not make us close the Bible and say the doctrine of Jesus - of God - does not matter. Or pretend that whether or not Jews believe does not matter. This idea that the truth must be placed on hold and not discussed because of what is going on in Israel - so that no one is offended by it - is not of God. The truth has always offended, and it will continue to offend, until Jesus comes back.​

.

 

[Zao is life]

You can *ask* for an apology, but you have no place to *demand* an apology. I have to consider whether God wants me to make an apology--it is not your demand that convicts me to do this.

Sometimes, we just mess things up by adding our bit to legitimate reproofs and exhortations that should be coming from the Spirit of Christ. That's kind of what I was doing with you. I thought you were stating things that were insulting to Jews and driving them away from Christian evangelization. But I was adding a little "judgmentalism" to my "concerns."

So at first I thought I was justified. But you legitimately called attention to my rudeness in calling you a "liar." And so I honestly and sincerely apologized to you. I recognized that my comments were hardly "helping you," but rather, doing the opposite. Who am I to represent what *God* wants you to do?

No problem. It's really up to you because nothing you did was actually an advertisement for a particular church. It was just an inquiry on my part to figure out where you were coming from.

As I understand it, some of the "student protests" and "university protests" supporting Hamas in America are secretly being funded and supported by Hamas itself! And so, to find out where certain aberrant beliefs are coming from research has to be done at times. In your case, I didn't find anything more than things to question.

Well, that's how we may be as individuals. We sometimes move in and out of the Spirit and don't perceive any misstep until we see the fruit of those missteps, which is anger in someone we've offended.

But we really all do this, and is not necessarily an indication that we're not walking in the Spirit most of the time. These are the things Paul and others tried to encourage us to deal with.

I've now been walking with the Lord at least as long as Paul did, but don't feel I can hold a candle to him. Until I get there I have to be very careful in how I try to "correct" others. Thank you.

God bless you brother.

I'm willing for, and happy for the opportunity for a reset, if that's what your post above is aiming for.

PS: Maybe Paul was a pretty fiery individual himself, going by the things he said and people he argued with (Peter being one). He never actually smoothed over his words regarding those who opposed his doctrine.​

 

[Zao is life]

As I understand it, some of the "student protests" and "university protests" supporting Hamas in America are secretly being funded and supported by Hamas itself! And so, to find out where certain aberrant beliefs are coming from research has to be done at times. In your case, I didn't find anything more than things to question.

Just so you understand: I am as appalled with the anti-Israel and pro-Hamas protests as you are. The fact that many of the protesters, if not most, are Muslims, I see as "Go figure, what did you think they would do"? though I am no less appalled by their protests. But the fact that so many non-Muslim Westerners join in with them, makes me sick to the stomach.

I also have no tolerance for, or belief in, any antisemitic propaganda, i.e these "International Jewry" type things that many Europeans believed throughout the 19th century, and the early part of the 20th century, which Hitler was well read up on, which have somehow found their way to prominence again, even in some Christian circles. I have no tolerance for that sort of thing.

I'm talking about biblical doctrine when I mention Jews - always biblical doctrine. Nothing else. I do not believe Jews who do not believe are any more sinful than I am. I am saved by grace. The grace of God. Nothing more. Nor do I believe that Jews who do not believe in Jesus are any more sinful than any other Gentiles who do not believe. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Jesus was a born a Jew. The apostles were all Jews. The Bible is a Jewish book - both the Old and New Testaments. What I said in my OP is straight out of a Jewish book. It does not mean I am antisemitic. I care about Jewish people and I have a love for them because deep within I see them as a special people because of their ancestry, BUT NOT more special to God than any other sons and daughters of Adam, and not to the point of compromising on the truth regarding the position before God for those who do not believe in the seed of Abraham, who is Christ, but instead reject Him.

@Randy Kluth PS: I am also sickened by the false accusations and insinuations about antisemitism leveled against me (and others) by @BlessedPeace and some others here just because I disagree with the interpretation of the same Jewish book that those who would love the Jews so much that they would gladly see their carcasses lying in the wilderness of their unbelief, as long as they can "love" the Jews, claim to believe in.​

 

[covenantee]

Does the covenant in question concern salvation? Did God tell Abraham they had to be circumcised to be saved?

Explain how your questions relate to either the Scripture or my question.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God bless you brother.

I'm willing for, and happy for the opportunity for a reset, if that's what your post above is aiming for.

PS: Maybe Paul was a pretty fiery individual himself, going by the things he said and people he argued with (Peter being one). He never actually smoothed over his words regarding those who opposed his doctrine.​

Absolutely, I love my true Christian brethren, male and female. My goal from adolescence has been to serve the Lord and Him only. And after coming this far I have no wish to do any less. Thank you for the encouraging word, and I do receive any corrections you have for me. That's the way God often speaks to me, along with that "still small voice."

You're right. For years and years I looked up to the authors of the Bible almost as if they were God Himself. They were far, far beyond our reach--almost angelic human beings. But the longer I've lived as a Christian the more I've come to realize the saints were not always "saints." Just like us they struggled. Paul in fact said he struggled. And we saw a few times where he got overly angry. Moses certainly had that problem, and probably much more than the few events in the Bible that disiplay that.

We read where Jeremiah and other Prophets argued with God and were corrected by God. We read of Samson, of David, and sadly, we take those opportunities to then characterize them in a negative light.

I've seen where an evangelical leader openly and publicly denounced Job as "lacking faith" as the reason for his suffering. I heard a major evangelical pastor claim that David lost his prophetic prowess after his thing with Bathsheba. I've heard Peter characterized as "uninspired most of the time," that Thomas was a "doubter."

We really need to recognize that Sampson judged Israel for 30 years! He was a good man, and a hero in the end. David did not stop producing good Psalms after his adulterous affair. He produced, through redemption, the wisest Israeli king who ever lived--Solomon. And despite Solomon's own weaknesses and softness towards false religions, he went on to produce incredibly good Scriptures encouraging us to learn from our mistakes.

I don't think God wanted to over-emphasize our mistakes anyway--otherwise we would've had many more examples of spiritual failure by the biblical authors. There were probably lots of letters Paul wrote that were a little "less than inspired," or perhaps containing a few "words that betrayed irritability and judgment?"

Anyway, we can be encouraged that all God is asking of us is that we keep our heads down, stay humble, confess and repent of our sins. Most importantly, it's honorable that you and I strive to set an example of Christian unity among those who really believe in and follow Jesus. Much appreciated!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Explain how your questions relate to either the Scripture or my question.

Because the part of the abrahamic covenant that deals with Israel is not salvatic.

Circumcision is a sign of that covenant. But not required to be saved.

So you using that as a means to support your theory is in error..

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just so you understand: I am as appalled with the anti-Israel and pro-Hamas protests as you are. The fact that many of the protesters, if not most, are Muslims, I see as "Go figure, what did you think they would do"? though I am no less appalled by their protests. But the fact that so many non-Muslim Westerners join in with them, makes me sick to the stomach.

I also have no tolerance for, or belief in, any antisemitic propaganda, i.e these "International Jewry" type things that many Europeans believed throughout the 19th century, and the early part of the 20th century, which Hitler was well read up on, which have somehow found their way to prominence again, even in some Christian circles. I have no tolerance for that sort of thing.​

Thank you for clarifying that for us all!! We're on the same page then.

I'm talking about biblical doctrine when I mention Jews - always biblical doctrine. Nothing else. I do not believe Jews who do not believe are any more sinful than I am. I am saved by grace. The grace of God. Nothing more. Nor do I believe that Jews who do not believe in Jesus are any more sinful than any other Gentiles who do not believe. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.​

Well put. However, I do think that once we've come into the light our choices for sin actually become darker. I don't think it's any coincidence that some of the most dangerous tyrants in the world have begun with a Jewish or a Christian education. Some, like Marx, turned the world in a completely corrupt direction, by taking the knowledge of God and turning it into a form of dictatorial Humanism.

The Jewish People have suffered greater than most peoples of the world precisely because at the start of their nation they were given greater light--the light of the Prophets, the light of the Word of God. Turning against Christ himself they became virtual monsters among many of them, causing God to throw them into "great tribulation" until an age-long process weakened their resolve to hate and oppose Christianity.

Christian Europe presently is also in great danger of turning against the great light they have been given. And as a result they may produce another "Hitler," or another "Stalin."

Jesus was a born a Jew. The apostles were all Jews. The Bible is a Jewish book - both the Old and New Testaments. What I said in my OP is straight out of a Jewish book. It does not mean I am antisemitic. I care about Jewish people and I have a love for them because deep within I see them as a special people because of their ancestry, BUT NOT more special to God than any other sons and daughters of Adam, and not to the point of compromising on the truth regarding the position before God for those who do not believe in the seed of Abraham, who is Christ, but instead reject Him.​

Okay, accepted. Your own doctrine is basically based on Covenant Theology and Amillennialism? The idea is often called "Replacement Theology," which was held to even by Premillennialists in the Early Church. Some are offended by my use of that term, but from my point of view it's the best way of describing why I oppose it.

We disagree *agreeably.* I was raised in this position, but have come to believe that though this is indeed a present reality it will change in the Millennium. In other words, my beliefs are theoretical and not worthy of great controversy between us.

The important thing is, even though we agree that the majority of Jews are fallen and not worthy of full support, we believe that grace is still at work in a minority of them. We don't want that process to end whether or not the entire nation will be restored to faith in the future?

I very much appreciate your straight forward comments. It clarifies your beliefs and calms my fears.

 

[Zao is life]

When does forever end?

In the Old Testament it's always a translation of the Hebrew word ôlâm. It denotes any period of time, the beginning of which or end of which is not known, and it means the same as it means in the following verses:

"If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
And if he says to you, I will not go away from you, because he loves you and your house, because it has been good for him with you;
then you shall take an awl and put it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever (ôlâm). And also to your slave-girl you shall do so." (Deuteronomy 14:12, 16 & 17);

"And the LORD said to him, I have heard your prayer and your cry which you have made before Me. I have made this house which you have built holy, to put My name there forever (ôlâm). And My eyes and My heart shall be there all the days." (1 Kings 9:3);

Solomon's temple no longer stands.

"And you shall command the sons of Israel that they bring you pure olive oil beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn continuously in the tabernacle of the congregation, outside the veil which is before the testimony. Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD. It shall be a statute forever (ôlâm) to their generations on behalf of the sons of Israel." (Exodus 27:20-21).

(No physical sanctuary or temple needed anymore. Christ is the Temple).

‛ôlâm is closely related to the Greek word aeon (an Age of time), and because it denotes either a seemingly endless period of time (or an Age, the end of which was not known when the words were written), or a literally endless period of time (depending on the context), there are many passages in the Old Testament where ‛ôlâm does NOT mean "forever and ever", for example, taking us backwards in time from a certain point in time in the following verses:-

"And David and his men went up and invaded the Geshurites, and the Gezrites, and the Amalekites. For they were the inhabitants of the land from of old (‛ôlâm), as you come into Shur, even into the land of Egypt." (1 Samuel 27:8);

"And Joshua said to all the people, So says the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers lived of old (‛ôlâm) beyond the River, Terah the father of Abraham, and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods." (Joshua 24:2);

"Remember the days of old (‛ôlâm); consider the years of many generations. Ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you." (Deuteronomy 32:7).

‛ôlâm can also mean "forever and ever" (in perpetuity), for example in verses such as Proverbs 8:22-23; Genesis 21:33; Deuteronomy 32:40.

It denotes any period of time, the beginning of which or end of which is not known. Here's a picture of it in case you can't understand:

Imagine you see the view below out both the back window and the windscreen of your car and you're a child driving with your parents. You were asleep when the journey started and that's what you wake up to.

That's ‛ôlâm (forever).

So now you know what forever means, when it's found in the Old Testament, you can even teach it to your children. Ain't that nice.

You don't have to thank me ​

 

[Zao is life]

Thank you for clarifying that for us all!! We're on the same page then.

Well put. However, I do think that once we've come into the light our choices for sin actually become darker. I don't think it's any coincidence that some of the most dangerous tyrants in the world have begun with a Jewish or a Christian education. Some, like Marx, turned the world in a completely corrupt direction, by taking the knowledge of God and turning it into a form of dictatorial Humanism.

The Jewish People have suffered greater than most peoples of the world precisely because at the start of their nation they were given greater light--the light of the Prophets, the light of the Word of God. Turning against Christ himself they became virtual monsters among many of them, causing God to throw them into "great tribulation" until an age-long process weakened their resolve to hate and oppose Christianity.

Christian Europe presently is also in great danger of turning against the great light they have been given. And as a result they may produce another "Hitler," or another "Stalin."

Okay, accepted. Your own doctrine is basically based on Covenant Theology and Amillennialism? The idea is often called "Replacement Theology," which was held to even by Premillennialists in the Early Church. Some are offended by my use of that term, but from my point of view it's the best way of describing why I oppose it.

We disagree *agreeably.* I was raised in this position, but have come to believe that though this is indeed a present reality it will change in the Millennium. In other words, my beliefs are theoretical and not worthy of great controversy between us.

The important thing is, even though we agree that the majority of Jews are fallen and not worthy of full support, we believe that grace is still at work in a minority of them. We don't want that process to end whether or not the entire nation will be restored to faith in the future?

I very much appreciate your straight forward comments. It clarifies your beliefs and calms my fears.

I also believe in a literal millennium that will follow the return of Christ. I don't believe the claim of replacement theology is valid though, because Israel did not cease to exist after Christ. The apostles and thousands of other Jewish believers were the remnant. No new Israel - but a new temple, made up of the living stones of those born descendants of Abraham who believe + those grafted into Israel.

No "new" Israel A new covenant, and a new temple. Nobody was 'replaced'. Gentiles are not grafted in to substitute anyone broken off. We are grafted in among those who remain. There have always been Jewish believers. God has always kept a remnant.

So I'm hoping that Joseph being reconciled to his kinsmen and bringing them all to live with him in goshen is a biblical type of what is to come. But I don't know whether any one of us who believes in Jesus has biblical prophecy all figured out, though we all believe we do, and yet we all believe differently. It's like the Jewish rabbis in rabbinical school say, "Two Rabbis, three opinions" when it comes to interpreting the Talmud and their own literature and the Tanach. It's the same with Christians. Two Christians, three opinions.

It gets so bad that sometimes in these forums it becomes a case of one Christian, three opinions. ​

 

[Zao is life]

Christian Europe presently is also in great danger of turning against the great light they have been given. And as a result they may produce another "Hitler," or another "Stalin."

I'm half-German, like you. I think Europe is done for. Post-Christian. They've turned away from the God of their post-Roman forefathers. Though there is always a remnant, most will find it easy to submit to Islam once it starts becoming too "uncomfortable" not to.

As far as the modern day state called Israel is concerned, I believe this (click for that post) is what is coming.

 

[ewq1938]

Israel is a title that was given to a man and his sons. They became Israelites. His brother Esau and his children were genetically related but weren't Israel because they did not receive the title. That title now has been given to those who accept Christ.

 

[covenantee]

Because the part of the abrahamic covenant that deals with Israel is not salvatic.

Circumcision is a sign of that covenant. But not required to be saved.

So you using that as a means to support your theory is in error..

The issue is not whether or not it's salvatic.

The issue is whether or not it is everlasting.

God said that it was everlasting.

You've been telling us that it's everlasting.

So it's everlasting.

Thus you believe that circumcision is an everlasting sign of the everlasting Abrahamic Covenant.

Listen up, some of you men.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The issue is not whether or not it's salvatic.

The issue is whether or not it is everlasting.

God said that it was everlasting.

You've been telling us that it's everlasting.

So it's everlasting.

Thus you believe that circumcision is an everlasting sign of the everlasting Abrahamic Covenant.

Listen up, some of you men.

Do Jews get circumcised in keeping that covenant?

you make me laugh at how you will ignore hate er goes against you

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm half-German, like you. I think Europe is done for. Post-Christian. They've turned away from the God of their post-Roman forefathers. Though there is always a remnant, most will find it easy to submit to Islam once it starts becoming too "uncomfortable" not to.

As far as the modern day state called Israel is concerned, I believe this (click for that post) is what is coming.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. From my perspective there is a lot of truth in that. My view is that there is a genuine Messianic Jewish movement in Israel, ie Christians born of Jewish culture that represent the "remnant" of believers Paul spoke about in Rom 9-11.

Then there are the majority of Jewish People in Israel, who have suffered anti-Christian propaganda, being taught that Christians hate them. So they have a jaded view of Christ and are temporarily lost in their ignorance.

Jesus said to "forgive them, for they know not what they do." I think these will be brought to repentance not before but at the return of Christ. They will weep to learn what they, as a people, have missed. They were called God's "first born" nation, but they are now ending up being perhaps the "last" Christian nation.

Finally, there are the wicked Jews who are the source of anti-Christian propaganda. They keep the Jewish People in ignorance, but will be judged in these last days, and ultimately at Christ's Return. Throughout the age Rabbinic Jews have carefully kept their people quarantined in Judaism, separating them from the Gospel message, which they have seen as a threat to their own religion.

God would've sped up the process of Israel's national repentance except that it would've required judging people who have been getting saved at a slower pace. And other nations would not have had opportunity to be "nations of God" as Israel had, if Israel had been brought immediately to a place of final judgment.

But it was, I think, God's purpose from the start to only begin this process of evangelization with Israel, only to move beyond Israel to other nations when Israel had hardened its heart to the Gospel. That has given many other nations the opportunity to be "nations of God," as well.

Meanwhile, a small Jewish remnant has been getting saved in every generation, keeping Israel's national hope alive at the coming of Messiah. In the end, all nations will have had their chance, I think.

I feel this is important because God promised the salvation not just of individuals but also of nations, not of course meaning that every individual within a nation would be "born again," but that whole nations must come to a place of embracing Christianity as a nation. This Gospel both saves individuals and preserves nations politically.

"Salvation," in the Bible, refers to the political deliverance of a nation from its enemies through embracing God's laws through obedience. For Christians this means individuals should be "born again," embracing God as their exclusive god, and committing their bodies and will to the will of Christ for a spiritual deliverance. This, if done in sufficient numbers, leads to a nation's political deliverance from its enemies. Anyway, that's how I look at it.

Some fellow Christians get real hostile with me because I state and believe this, but is this really something worth fighting over? I just have to state what I believe until proven wrong. The promises of God seem quite explicit, and I find I must believe God over what people tell me.

At any rate, there is plenty that we agree on, on the fact that God does not save by ethnicity. There is no ethnic or national litmus test to determine if we can be saved. And we agree that presently, Israel is largely unsaved, with the exception of a small believing remnant, and they remain under divine judgment.

Also, God has given Israel less than the full nation due to their intransigence as a people towards Christianity. They are still under "punishment" from God, which began in 70 AD and continues to this day.

But the fact they are back in the land of Palestine tells me, personally, that God is gradually restoring them, not due to their own righteousness, but due to His grace and faithfulness to His promises. We'll see, I suppose?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I also believe in a literal millennium that will follow the return of Christ. I don't believe the claim of replacement theology is valid though, because Israel did not cease to exist after Christ. The apostles and thousands of other Jewish believers were the remnant. No new Israel - but a new temple, made up of the living stones of those born descendants of Abraham who believe + those grafted into Israel.

No "new" Israel A new covenant, and a new temple. Nobody was 'replaced'. Gentiles are not grafted in to substitute anyone broken off. We are grafted in among those who remain. There have always been Jewish believers. God has always kept a remnant.

So I'm hoping that Joseph being reconciled to his kinsmen and bringing them all to live with him in goshen is a biblical type of what is to come. But I don't know whether any one of us who believes in Jesus has biblical prophecy all figured out, though we all believe we do, and yet we all believe differently. It's like the Jewish rabbis in rabbinical school say, "Two Rabbis, three opinions" when it comes to interpreting the Talmud and their own literature and the Tanach. It's the same with Christians. Two Christians, three opinions.

It gets so bad that sometimes in these forums it becomes a case of one Christian, three opinions. ​

Thanks, I agree. We can discuss this one elsewhere, if you want? I'm presently discussing this very subject on another forum. But I don't want to move too quickly beyond current matters here. So we'll see how it goes...

 

[Zao is life]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. From my perspective there is a lot of truth in that. My view is that there is a genuine Messianic Jewish movement in Israel, ie Christians born of Jewish culture that represent the "remnant" of believers Paul spoke about in Rom 9-11.

Then there are the majority of Jewish People in Israel, who have suffered anti-Christian propaganda, being taught that Christians hate them. So they have a jaded view of Christ and are temporarily lost in their ignorance.

Jesus said to "forgive them, for they know not what they do." I think these will be brought to repentance not before but at the return of Christ. They will weep to learn what they, as a people, have missed. They were called God's "first born" nation, but they are now ending up being perhaps the "last" Christian nation.

Finally, there are the wicked Jews who are the source of anti-Christian propaganda. They keep the Jewish People in ignorance, but will be judged in these last days, and ultimately at Christ's Return. Throughout the age Rabbinic Jews have carefully kept their people quarantined in Judaism, separating them from the Gospel message, which they have seen as a threat to their own religion.

God would've sped up the process of Israel's national repentance except that it would've required judging people who have been getting saved at a slower pace. And other nations would not have had opportunity to be "nations of God" as Israel had, if Israel had been brought immediately to a place of final judgment.

But it was, I think, God's purpose from the start to only begin this process of evangelization with Israel, only to move beyond Israel to other nations when Israel had hardened its heart to the Gospel. That has given many other nations the opportunity to be "nations of God," as well. Meanwhile, a small Jewish remnant has been getting saved in every generation, keeping Israel's national hope alive at the coming of Messiah. In the end, all nations will have had their chance, I think.

I feel this is important because God promised the salvation not just of individuals but also of nations, not of course meaning that every individual within a nation would be "born again," but that whole nations must come to a place of embracing Christianity as a nation. This Gospel both saves individuals and preserves nations politically.

"Salvation," in the Bible, refers to the political deliverance of a nation from its enemies through embracing God's laws through obedience. For Christians this means individuals should be "born again," embracing God as their exclusive god, and committing their bodies and will to the will of Christ for a spiritual deliverance. This, if done in sufficient numbers, leads to a nation's political deliverance from its enemies. Anyway, that's how I look at it.

Some fellow Christians get real hostile with me because I state and believe this, but is this really something worth fighting over? I just have to state what I believe until proven wrong. The promises of God seem quite explicit, and I find I must believe God over what people tell me.

At any rate, there is plenty that we agree on, on the fact that God does not save by ethnicity. There is no ethnic or national litmus test to determine if we can be saved. And we agree that presently, Israel is largely unsaved, with the exception of a small believing remnant, and they remain under divine judgment.

Also, God has given Israel less than the full nation due to their intransigence as a people towards Christianity. They are still under "punishment" from God, which began in 70 AD and continues to this day.

But the fact they are back in the land of Palestine tells me, personally, that God is gradually restoring them, not due to their own righteousness, but due to His grace and faithfulness to His promises. We'll see, I suppose?

Yes. The Jews are like living stones in this sense: We don't only have the ruins of ancient synagogues and first-century churches ad tombs like the tomb of David, the city of David, the libraries of Babylon, Sennacherib's prism, and many other archaeological phenomena to confirm to us and prove to the world that our faith in the writings of the prophets and people of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, are not fantasies.

We also have a nation descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with us to this day called "the Jews".

And God is bringing Jews even in Israel into the New Covenant almost daily. He has a harvest in Israel among the Jews, so there's its purpose, and - maybe it's my imagination running away with me - but I believe that the territory called Israel today is also the place God spoke long ago to His prophets about, when He said where He will judge the nations.

With regard to God's judgment of the nations only, it does not matter whether or not ALL Jews in Israel are in His Kingdom in Christ. God hates wickedness and treachery, and the nations today, and since 1948, can be divided up between those who hate them with a diabolical and ancient hatred and want to annihilate them, and those who don't, but nevertheless speak out of both sides of the mouth to them, and in the process, all the treachery of the nations has found its nest in Israel.

And that's where the judgment of the nations will occur - in the nest of their treachery. Whether or not ALL Israel's Jews are saved by then.​

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks, I agree. We can discuss this one elsewhere, if you want? I'm presently discussing this very subject on another forum. But I don't want to move too quickly beyond current matters here. So we'll see how it goes...

I'll have to come back again tomorrow or later in the week. Tomorrow is already today where I am. Tomorrow where you are. Thanks for the discussion so far.

 

[Zao is life]

Israel is a title that was given to a man and his sons. They became Israelites. His brother Esau and his children were genetically related but weren't Israel because they did not receive the title. That title now has been given to those who accept Christ.

Jacob's descendants didn't "become" Israelites - they were Israelites. God renamed Jacob Israel. The seed of Abraham is Christ. Those in Christ are Abraham's descendants, and heirs according to the promise. So we are Israelites. Abraham is a name. not a title. Israel is a name, not a title. Jesus did not "become" an Israelite. He was, and is, an Israelite.

 

[covenantee]

Do Jews get circumcised in keeping that covenant?

you make me laugh at how you will ignore hate er goes against you

I have no idea what you're talking about.
Neither do you.
But your "everlasting" circumcision is clearly not "everlasting".

Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[ewq1938]

Jacob's descendants didn't "become" Israelites - they were Israelites. God renamed Jacob Israel.

Which proves they became Israel because it is a name/title.

Israel is a name, not a title.

It's both.