Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life

[Zao is life]

Did they attach themselves to the vine?

No.

Can they unattach themselves from the vine?

Yes. They are not robots. And Jesus does not hold people captive.

Will there be believers in heaven who did not produce fruit.

No.

Do you not remember how Jesus told us how fruit is produced in us and what would happen to us if we do not abide in Him?

Do you know what the fruit is that Jesus said we will produce if we abide in Him?

Do you understand why Jesus will say to many who call Him "Lord" that He never knew them?

 

[GracePeace]

I understand how you are looking at this, however, I have to insist, that's not how the perfect tense in Koine Greek works. And that's not the form of the statement. All I can do is repeat these same things. But that's the language. That's how it works.

What if you don't continue? It means you didn't pass the condition, and therefore, you had not become a partaker of Christ. That's what the passage says. That's the use of the first class conditional clause, This is true of you, IF that is true of you. You've become partakers of Christ IF you continue to the end. If you do not continue to the end, you had not become a partaker of Christ.

At then end of this part, you assert that the completed and enduring action of a perfect tense verb isn't completed and enduring.

Let me ask you . . . when God "forgets" a man's righteousness, are you thinking that means God becomes unaware of that man's history? That his history ceases to exist, and God Himself doesn't know what his history was? I don't see it that way.

But this goes back to the difference between the covenant God made with Israel, and the covenant God makes with us. God's covenant with Israel was based on the people's righteousness as determined by the Law. God's covenant with me is based on Jesus' righteousness as determined by His life and death and resurrection. The people's righteousness comes and goes, as we've seen, but Jesus' righteousness remains forever.

1 Peter 1:22-23 KJV
22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Much love!

I understand you're dealing with the language, and I accept your breakdown of the language--I have no gripe with it at all--and I'm saying without understanding God can forget righteousness, you're exactly understanding the language, but you're missing a tool for interpreting the language. If you don't continue in the faith you retroactively never had partaken. We're basically saying the same thing, except I'm adding a dynamic that you are leaving out. You cannot accept that history can be "rewritten", that God can "forget" righteousness.

Now, if you want to know how righteousness can be forgotten, the same question will be answered when you figure out how God forgets sin. God "forgets" sin, and He can "forget" righteousness.

 

[GracePeace]

So God can fail?

1. Does a branch that doesn't abide get thrown in the fire? Yes, because God is faithful to His Word that He will throw them in the fire if they don't bear fruit because they're not abiding. God hasn't failed then. God has succeeded at being faithful to His Word.
2. How can God be said to have "failed" when He Himself has set forth the terms and conditions that "I will work in you and you are to work with Me--and if you don't, ultimately, it leads to your demise"? That's not God failing, that's the other person not doing their part.

 

[marks]

Following Him... Abiding in Him... Believing in Him... the one who is coming to Me... None of these is "one-and-done".

The one-and-done is justification and regeneration. After that, those who have been regenerated will continue in the faith.

Here's great passage,

Galatians 2:20-21 KJV
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It's not just me here. On my own, I'm doomed. I can't cut the mustard, I know that. But with Jesus, He's my Rock, and upon this Rock He builds me.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

But this goes back to the difference between the covenant God made with Israel, and the covenant God makes with us. God's covenant with Israel was based on the people's righteousness as determined by the Law. God's covenant with me is based on Jesus' righteousness as determined by His life and death and resurrection. The people's righteousness comes and goes, as we've seen, but Jesus' righteousness remains forever.

Jesus's righteousness remains forever--that's never been contested--but not all remain in Him, as has been discussed at length here.

1 Peter 1:22-23 KJV
22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Much love!

No one is debating the viability of the Seed, only that we are told "Remain in Me and My Words in you"--and not all remain in Him, and when this is the case, His Word/Seed doesn't remain in them.

 

[marks]

Now you want to say, with zero basis, that this "not imputed" relates to the Book of Life?

As I see it, the Scriptures answered your objection.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

The one-and-done is justification and regeneration. After that, those who have been regenerated will continue in the faith.

Here's great passage,

Galatians 2:20-21 KJV
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It's not just me here. On my own, I'm doomed. I can't cut the mustard, I know that. But with Jesus, He's my Rock, and upon this Rock He builds me.

Much love!

No, justification isn't one-and-done, because Ro 14:23 says the Christian who doesn't walk in faith is "condemned", which is why James 2 says we are "justified" by walking in faith (it's gotta be one or the other--you're going to be alive, so the question is as to whether you're going to be condemned for not walking in faith or justified for walking in faith)--and Ro 2 says only the doers of the Law will be justified when God judges.

Otherwise, there is no debate against Gal 2. The Galatians had gone under Law (Gal 4:21)--I've never said anyone was "under Law".

Notice that the solution to the problem of the Galatians is NOT "Christ alone", it's "serve one another through love". This is an issue of how to walk before God after you're saved--it's not by the Law it's by the Spirit.

 

[GracePeace]

As I see it, the Scriptures answered your objection.

Much love!

As I see it, you did not present the Scripture, and I'm fine with disagreeing.

 

[marks]

No one is debating the viability of the Seed, only that we are told "Remain in Me and My Words in you"--and not all remain in Him, and when this is the case, His Word/Seed doesn't remain in them.

But how does that statement fit with this?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We who are the children of God know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him. Do you have this knowledge?

Do you know of a certainty that when you see Him you will be like Him? We have His promise,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Is your citizenship in heaven? If so, this is for you. He shall - shall - change "the body of our humiliation" to be like His glorious body.

John adds, the person who has this hope purifies himself. Our "hope" is not wistful and uncertain like the modern use. The meaning of the word there is the expected outcome of what we are trusting. That is, we believe Jesus is true, and Jesus promises us resurrection. We believe therefore that we will be resurrected. Therefore resurrection is our hope. What we expect to come based on what we believe.

Do you believe these passages, exactly as written? They don't leave room for uncertainty. And all of Scripture is in harmony with the rest.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

But how does that statement fit with this?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We who are the children of God know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him. Do you have this knowledge?

Do you know of a certainty that when you see Him you will be like Him? We have His promise,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Is your citizenship in heaven? If so, this is for you. He shall - shall - change "the body of our humiliation" to be like His glorious body.

John adds, the person who has this hope purifies himself. Our "hope" is not wistful and uncertain like the modern use. The meaning of the word there is the expected outcome of what we are trusting. That is, we believe Jesus is true, and Jesus promises us resurrection. We believe therefore that we will be resurrected. Therefore resurrection is our hope. What we expect to come based on what we believe.

Do you believe these passages, exactly as written? They don't leave room for uncertainty. And all of Scripture is in harmony with the rest.

Much love!

All those who abide in Him will experience these things at His appearance, but we're also warned that some do not abide because they're led away by idols (1 Jn 2:28, 5:21)--as in Ezekiel 20:16 "because they rejected My ordinances, and as for My statutes, they did not walk in them; they even profaned My Sabbaths, for their heart continually went after their idols."--they are breaking either or both of the two tables of the Law of Faith: 1) believe in the Name of God's Son and 2) love one another (1 Jn 3:23,24).

 

[GracePeace]

But how does that statement fit with this?

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

We who are the children of God know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him. Do you have this knowledge?

Do you know of a certainty that when you see Him you will be like Him? We have His promise,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Is your citizenship in heaven? If so, this is for you. He shall - shall - change "the body of our humiliation" to be like His glorious body.

John adds, the person who has this hope purifies himself. Our "hope" is not wistful and uncertain like the modern use. The meaning of the word there is the expected outcome of what we are trusting. That is, we believe Jesus is true, and Jesus promises us resurrection. We believe therefore that we will be resurrected. Therefore resurrection is our hope. What we expect to come based on what we believe.

Do you believe these passages, exactly as written? They don't leave room for uncertainty. And all of Scripture is in harmony with the rest.

Much love!

By the way, I'm not even slightly insinuating that anyone who disagrees with me is not abiding in Christ, because "we have known and believed the love of God for us" is the greatest part of how we abide, which is what all my detractors (@mailmandan @Eternally Grateful and yourself) are wanting to emphasize and champion.

In that sense, my point may only be academic, but I just have to know the dimensions of Christianity, that's all.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And not remaining results in being thrown in the fire.
Those are the two options.
Christ pays for our sin--but the servant who doesn't go and do the same has his forgiveness revoked. His faith is forgotten.

lol..

Thanks for putting us as having to earn salvation. earn eternal life.

Its a gift my friend..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I showed you where he repented.

Now can you show me the verse that says he did not repent?

You showed me where he cried.

Which means he acknowledged his guilt

You never showed me where he went to Jesus and asked for forgiveness.

Can you show me that?

 

[GracePeace]

lol..

Thanks for putting us as having to earn salvation. earn eternal life.

Its a gift my friend..

Again, there is no mutual exclusivity between eternal life being a gift and being a repayment for good deeds (Ro 2:6-16; Gal 6:6-10). Both are stated, so both are true.

The difference between us is that you accept one sliver of Scripture, and I accept it all.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, there is no mutual exclusivity between eternal life being a gift and being a repayment for good deeds (Ro 2:6-16; Gal 6:6-10). Both are stated, so both are true.

The difference between us is that you accept one sliver of Scripture, and I accept it all.

No the difference between us is I repented and received eternal life as a Gift

You are still trying to earn it..

Lets get it right my friend.

 

[GracePeace]

No the difference between us is I repented and received eternal life as a Gift

You are still trying to earn it..

Lets get it right my friend.

You have no justification for your unbelief.

Romans 2
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentile [believer]s who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9Let’s not become discouraged in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not become weary. 10So then, [c]while we have opportunity, let’s do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

 

[GracePeace]

Lets get it right my friend.

Throughout this discussion, you've proven you have exactly zero things "right"--that is, not that you have zero truth, but that you have zero complete truth. You have some truth, and you have eternal life, but your explications of the Scripture are utterly lacking. You believe a little saying over here, a little snippet over there, but you don't believe it all, and you reject clear doctrines when they don't fit your paradigm (eg, branches that don't abide are thrown in the fire, but you deny that this is a salvific issue). Your explanations offer no help to someone like myself who just wants to know what Scripture teaches.

You think because you have derived some benefit from what you have believed that there is nothing left to be said--and that idea is debunked when we look at Scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

You showed me where he cried.

Which means he acknowledged his guilt

You never showed me where he went to Jesus and asked for forgiveness.

Can you show me that?

It's not written, and it does not have to be. It's written that he sobbed, showing his remorse, and you are making it obvious by your RIDICULOUS question that you want to use the fact that it's not written that Peter asked Jesus for forgiveness to imply that after Peter saw Jesus alive again, and realized it was Jesus, that Peter did not ask Jesus for forgiveness.
​

Do you honestly expect anyone to believe YOU when you IMPLY that because it's not written that Peter asked Jesus for forgiveness, that he did not do so?

You need to answer the questions I asked you which you just ignore please, or else I will also have to ignore all your ridiculous red herring questions too.​

 

[Zao is life]

No the difference between us is I repented and received eternal life as a Gift

You are still trying to earn it..

Lets get it right my friend.

You are still hurling false accusations about him still wanting to earn eternal life which he already said is a gift, betraying the fact that you cannot tell the difference between not earning salvation, and not abiding in the salvation that was not earned.

Esau had a birthright. His birthright was not earned through any 'righteousness' of Abraham, because it is not written that Abraham was righteous. It's written that his faith in the Word of God was credited to Abraham FOR righteousness, and when God called him, there was nothing Abraham needed do,except receive the promise through faith in the Word of God. It was 430 years before the law, and the law did not annul the promise.

So Esau never earned his birthright. He could not earn it, either.

But he could lose it. And he did. He did not abide in it.

Lets get it right my friend.​

 

[GracePeace]

You are still hurling false accusations about him still wanting to earn eternal life which he already said is a gift, betraying the fact that you cannot tell the difference between not earning salvation, and not abiding in the salvation that was not earned.

Esau had a birthright. His birthright was not earned through any 'righteousness' of Abraham, because it is not written that Abraham was righteous. It's written that his faith in the Word of God was credited to Abraham FOR righteousness, and when God called him, there was nothing Abraham needed do ,except receive the promise through faith in the Word of God. It was 430 years before the law, and the law did not annul the promise.

So Esau never earned his birthright. He could not earn it, either.

But he could lose it. And he did. He did not abide in it.

Lets get it right my friend.​

Yep, it is by righteousness that we have it as a gift--the righteousness of God by grace through faith.
It is kept by grace through faith--we are not under Law we are under Grace.
That is, Grace and faith is the way we serve today (Ro 6:14, 7:6; Gal 5:6).
When we walk in faith we are revealing "God's righteousness... from faith to faith" (Ro 1:5,16,17).
Consequently, the one who does not walk in faith is "condemned" (Ro 14:5,23).
But I thought those who "in Him" have "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1)?
So, clearly, not all abide in Him (1 Jn 2:28) where the life is (1 Jn 5:11).
And the branches who do not abide are thrown in the fire (Jn 15).

It's quite clear.