WWJD with LGBTQ?

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St. SteVen

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Maybe perfect love is when we fear and esteem Him perfectly,
Not quite. Fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Perfect love drives out fear. There is no fear in love.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

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quietthinker

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WWJD with LGBTQ?​

WWJD with thieves....particularly those who shared the same fate as him?
WWJD with all those pesky people who disagree with us?
 
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Lizbeth

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Has it come to this? (sigh)
Where does that leave us? (fear) Spiritual extortion.

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It's not like that. Fear of the Lord is giving Him what is rightfully due to Him......because He is utterly worthy. Extortion is taking what is not due to you. God only wants from us what is rightfully His.....we have been bought with a price......and giving Him His due is for our good. It's a win-win!

You have an argument with Jesus who said to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And so many other scriptures that speak of the fear of the Lord.
 

St. SteVen

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It's not like that. Fear of the Lord is giving Him what is rightfully due to Him......because He is utterly worthy. Extortion is taking what is not due to you. God only wants from us what is rightfully His.....we have been bought with a price......and giving Him His due is for our good. It's a win-win!
Just to be clear, I am charging the church with spiritual extortion, not God.
Fear tactics are used to gain and keep members. And here you are, justifying it.

You have an argument with Jesus who said to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And so many other scriptures that speak of the fear of the Lord.
Not argument, really.
In context, Jesus is using that as a comparative.
Don't be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. (spirit is not included)
Then used a rather poetic comparison. Fear this, don't feat that.

Was Jesus being literal when he told us to "hate father and mother, wife and children,
brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life..."?

Matthew 10:28 NIV
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 14:26 NIV
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children,
brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

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St. SteVen

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You have an argument with Jesus who said to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And so many other scriptures that speak of the fear of the Lord.
Perhaps you are the one with the argument here?
Why would hell play into this if you believe in Annihilationism?

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Lizbeth

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Not quite. Fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Perfect love drives out fear. There is no fear in love.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

/
The story of Abigail and Nabal is coming to mind this morning, and the lessons we are to learn from that, oh my! David being a type of Christ, our Lord and King. Nabal, being a foolish man, had no fear of David and did not give him what was rightfully due to him........Abigail having fear and gratitude for David gave him all that she could and so saved her household from the destruction that was due it. And it resulted in David taking her to wife....that's about as close and intimate to the Lord as one can get, I would think, being His Bride. Because she had feared him, in the end she no longer needed to be afraid of what He might do in anger. It's like as long as you stay behind the lion in subjection to him you are safe from his teeth, but don't get in his face whatever you do - that would not be WISE. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of WISDOM - we better know WHO we are dealing with here and what is therefore due to Him.

This generation pf believers treats the Lord and things of the Lord far too lightly. And that will provoke Him to anger and jealousy.

Deu 32:15

But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
 

Lizbeth

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Perhaps you are the one with the argument here?
Why would hell play into this if you believe in Annihilationism?

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I'm not thinking of hell in Medieval terms, just trying to look at it biblically. Hell in the bible is Hades, Gehenna, death, the grave. A place of torment for a period time, but not necessarily forever (as I tentatively consider)....just until the second death, which is death of the soul at some time after the death of the body which I believe we can understand to be the first death. Death and hell itself will be annihilated in the lake of fire after it has served its purpose. Our God is a consuming fire. And Jesus did make mention of the destruction of the soul.
 

St. SteVen

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This generation pf believers treats the Lord and things of the Lord far too lightly. And that will provoke Him to anger and jealousy.
Are humans responsible for their reactions to trying situations? Yes, of course.
We know that jealousy is a sin, to be dealt with accordingly.
And we provide help for anger management issues.

Does God operate by a lower standard of behavior than he holds us to?
I thought his ways were higher than ours. ???

Have you seen this topic?


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Lizbeth

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Are humans responsible for their reactions to trying situations? Yes, of course.
We know that jealousy is a sin, to be dealt with accordingly.
And we provide help for anger management issues.

Does God operate by a lower standard of behavior than he holds us to?
I thought is ways were higher than ours. ???

Have you seen this topic?


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You ask a lot of philosophizing questions but don't actually address the scriptures. The jealousy of the Lord IS higher than man's. His jealousy and anger is not selfish and of the flesh like that of man's.....it is a righteous and holy jealousy, based on what is righteous and holy, as HE is righteous and holy.

And we better know that this age of grace is a time of longsuffering and that longsuffering will end one day. Lord help us not to be sitting in the seat of scoffers and mockers when that Day comes..
 
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Lizbeth

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Not quite. Fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Perfect love drives out fear. There is no fear in love.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

/
The paradox is that we need the fear of the Lord to get to where we don't need to fear so to speak. Work out our salvation with fear and trembling! We are to be perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord! (so says the scriptures) Don't go around telling people they have nothing to fear from God! That's a lie and would be taking away and nullifying something vital that we need! Fear of the Lord is for our good, not our hurt!
 

St. SteVen

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You ask a lot of philosophizing questions but don't actually address the scriptures. The jealousy of the Lord IS higher than man's. His jealousy and anger is not selfish and of the flesh like that of man's.....it is a righteous and holy jealousy, based on what is righteous and holy, as HE is righteous and holy.
So, God is allowed to do things without impunity that are a sin for us, simply because he is God?
Not "of the flesh", as you say. ??? Nothing higher about that at all. Reminds me of political crime.
Those at the top are above the law. Is that how it works?

And we better know that this age of grace is a time of longsuffering and that longsuffering will end one day.
Are we allowed to put limits on our patience?
Since patience is part of the fruit of the Spirit, how could it be limited at the source?

Lord help us not to be sitting in the seat of scoffers and mockers when that Day comes..
This is how religion seeks to control people.
They tell us that believers go to heaven and unbelievers go to hell.
So, take what we give you and don't ask any questions.

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Lizbeth

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So, God is allowed to do things without impunity that are a sin for us, simply because he is God?
Not "of the flesh", as you say. ??? Nothing higher about that at all. Reminds me of political crime.
Those at the top are above the law. Is that how it works?


Are we allowed to put limits on our patience?
Since patience is part of the fruit of the Spirit, how could it be limited at the source?


This is how religion seeks to control people.
They tell us that believers go to heaven and unbelievers go to hell.
So, take what we give you and don't ask any questions.

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Well, you better have a read of 2 Peter 3.

It's hard not to notice that so far you are giving nothing but questions and no answers.

Unbelievers sadly perish in their sins. That's what the scriptures teach and that's why people down through the centuries have been willing to lay down their lives to bring the gospel to those who don't know the Lord.
 
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Lizbeth

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If it really was good, there would be NOTHING to be afraid of.

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I do wonder what you do with all those times in the bible it talks about having the fear of the Lord. How do you render those teachings? Do you know that even Jesus was heard in that He feared? (bible - Heb 5:7)
 
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St. SteVen

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It's hard not to notice that so far you are giving nothing but questions and no answers.
I think the questions are more important than the answers.
Many apologetics aren't really valid answers anyway.
As you have so clearly demonstrated. Thanks.

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St. SteVen

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I do wonder what you do with all those times in the bible it talks about having the fear of the Lord. How do you render those teachings? Do you know that even Jesus was heard in that He feared? (bible - Heb 5:7)
Do you understand where the Bible came from?
The quotes we have from Jesus are a best guess by biased English translators.

The authorship of the synoptic gospels is questionable.
And mostly a duplication of an "original" version. Gospel Q?

And even if genuine, they were written 20-30 years after the actual events.
Imagine nothing being written about the 9/11 events in NY until 30 years after the events.
We would still have another 7 years to wait.

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