Unethical treatment of LGBTQ humans / Understanding LGBTQ - 101

[St. SteVen]

I'm still trying to help Christians understand this COMPLEX issue that they have reduced to a knee-jerk reaction.
Notice the term "LGBTQ humans" in the topic title. I need to remind Christians that these people are human. - Sigh.
Because they are typically treated by Christians as subhuman.

In my previous topic, WWJD with LGBTQ, I tried to inform forum members about what I knew about the subject.
--- If you wonder where I am coming from, that's a good place to start. ---

The level of ignorance on this subject is substantial.
And more than that, the level of aggression toward those humans with these issues.
And EVEN more than that, the aggression toward anyone, like myself who would DARE
to stand up to defend these precious ones that Jesus gave his life for.
Recently I have been accused of being a "homo" (I'm not) and for "lying" (I didn't) about being a Christian (in Christ). - Sigh.

Therefore, the Ethics & Morality Forum seemed appropriate. This has become an issue of Ethics & Morality.

Understanding LGBTQ - 101 / Terminology:
(note: we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to understand them)
I'm not an expert by any stretch; but this is what I have learned to date.

Birth Sex: The sex/gender you were born with.
Determined by the presence of male or female genitalia.
A small percentage are born with dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities.
See "Gender Assigned at Birth" below.

Gender Assigned at Birth: Now part of the paperwork doctors are required to fill out.
Allowing for parents to assign Non-Binary gender on the birth certificate.
Previously this was reserved for doctors and parents (hopefully) in cases of
dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities. (this subject is new to me)

Gender Identity: In most cases gender is determined by birth sex.
But as we have all seen, hormonal imbalances can give us a broad range of maleness and femaleness.
There are very masculine females and very feminine males. and everything in between.
See Gender Roles and Gender Dysphoria below.

Gender Roles: We see early signs of children gravitating toward gender specific interests.
Typically girls play with dolls and boys prefer trucks. But not always. Happens as early as 3 to 5 years.
We have seen a lot of evening out in this area. Opportunities for women in typically male roles.
Things have gone in the other direction as well. With more and more stay-at-home Dads.

Gender Dysphoria: The situation where a birth sex male feels that they are a female in a male body.
Or a birth sex female feels that they are a male in a female body. Usually realized in adolescence.
However, some children as young as 3 to 5 years old are acting on strong urges to opposite gender behavior.
Unfortunate, this has been OVER-STRESSED in recent years to epidemic proportions.
Gender identity is being pushed on anyone with a hormonal balance in either direction.
And has become popular in teen culture to pursue gender identity opposite their birth sex.

Transgender: A range of reactions to gender dysphoria. Manifesting in anything from
clothing and hair style preferences and name change to gender reassignment surgery.

Sexual Orientation: Attraction to opposite sex, or same-sex partners.
Note: Transgenderism does NOT automatically effect a change in sexual orientation.

Monogamous Relationships:
A couple in a lifetime commitment to each other regardless of sexual orientation.

Again, we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to UNDERSTAND them
in order to have any meaningful relationships with LGBTQ humans.

Discussion questions:
Please use the terminology laid about above in the discussion, thanks.

1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?
2) Does God love LGBTQ humans?
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?
4) Has the church recognized these factors?
5) Has the church acted accordingly?
6) What is your church, or fellowship, doing about this issue?
7) What can you do personally to grapple with this issue?

/

 

[Lambano]

Recently I have been accused of being a "homo" (I'm not)

You mean a flaming Homo Sapien?

I can't say that I've seen you flame anybody.

 

[MA2444]

I'm still trying to help Christians understand this COMPLEX issue that they have reduced to a knee-jerk reaction.
Notice the term "LGBTQ humans" in the topic title. I need to remind Christians that these people are human. - Sigh.
Because they are typically treated by Christians as subhuman.

In my previous topic, WWJD with LGBTQ, I tried to inform forum members about what I knew about the subject.
--- If you wonder where I am coming from, that's a good place to start. ---

The level of ignorance on this subject is substantial.
And more than that, the level of aggression toward those humans with these issues.
And EVEN more than that, the aggression toward anyone, like myself who would DARE
to stand up to defend these precious ones that Jesus gave his life for.
Recently I have been accused of being a "homo" (I'm not) and for "lying" (I didn't) about being a Christian (in Christ). - Sigh.

Therefore, the Ethics & Morality Forum seemed appropriate. This has become an issue of Ethics & Morality.

Understanding LGBTQ - 101 / Terminology:
(note: we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to understand them)
I'm not an expert by any stretch; but this is what I have learned to date.

Birth Sex: The sex/gender you were born with.
Determined by the presence of male or female genitalia.
A small percentage are born with dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities.
See "Gender Assigned at Birth" below.

Gender Assigned at Birth: Now part of the paperwork doctors are required to fill out.
Allowing for parents to assign Non-Binary gender on the birth certificate.
Previously this was reserved for doctors and parents (hopefully) in cases of
dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities. (this subject is new to me)

Gender Identity: In most cases gender is determined by birth sex.
But as we have all seen, hormonal imbalances can give us a broad range of maleness and femaleness.
There are very masculine females and very feminine males. and everything in between.
See Gender Roles and Gender Dysphoria below.

Gender Roles: We see early signs of children gravitating toward gender specific interests.
Typically girls play with dolls and boys prefer trucks. But not always. Happens as early as 3 to 5 years.
We have seen a lot of evening out in this area. Opportunities for women in typically male roles.
Things have gone in the other direction as well. With more and more stay-at-home Dads.

Gender Dysphoria: The situation where a birth sex male feels that they are a female in a male body.
Or a birth sex female feels that they are a male in a female body. Usually realized in adolescence.
However, some children as young as 3 to 5 years old are acting on strong urges to opposite gender behavior.
Unfortunate, this has been OVER-STRESSED in recent years to epidemic proportions.
Gender identity is being pushed on anyone with a hormonal balance in either direction.
And has become popular in teen culture to pursue gender identity opposite their birth sex.

Transgender: A range of reactions to gender dysphoria. Manifesting in anything from
clothing and hair style preferences and name change to gender reassignment surgery.

Sexual Orientation: Attraction to opposite sex, or same-sex partners.
Note: Transgenderism does NOT automatically effect a change in sexual orientation.

Monogamous Relationships:
A couple in a lifetime commitment to each other regardless of sexual orientation.

Again, we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to UNDERSTAND them
in order to have any meaningful relationships with LGBTQ humans.

Discussion questions:
Please use the terminology laid about above in the discussion, thanks.

1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?
2) Does God love LGBTQ humans?
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?
4) Has the church recognized these factors?
5) Has the church acted accordingly?
6) What is your church, or fellowship, doing about this issue?
7) What can you do personally to grapple with this issue?

/

So soon you start another thread like this? They just closed the other one! I thought it could rest for awhile, lol.

I'd like to say something to you. You bringing this issue up and beating it back and forth with me has had a good effect on me. It has made me really sit down and think about all this. A side effect was awesome in that it made me search my heart and God's word very carefully and I have seen what I think are positive results from it even though I vehemently disagree with you and your view. I didn't know how to deal with guys like you before. Now it's like my discernment is becoming sharper and I do know how to talk to you guys. I appreciate that you seem to be trying to be somewhat amicable at times (even though you drone on and on the same untruths!) and I havent met one of you guys who were the least bit amicable ever.

So are these discussions helping you learn to debate this issue better, in your opinion? I hope so, but, that said, you're still wrong, lol! The scripture jumped out at me, be as wise as serpants and harmless as doves...Now, you can't blame a christian brother for doing that now, could you?

That said, I fully realize that the gbt'ers are humans. We wrestle not agains flesh and blood but with evil spirits and dominions and principalities. So there is a marked evil supernatural influence that is wholly Demonic that is behind the whole movement. Not the misguided human hosts, right? Right.

So let's look at it that way. Spiritually. Not humanly. Spiritually. In spirit and in truth. Do you agree?

So it isn't about if you are black or white or sticking up for black rights. Being black is not a sin in itself. The gays ones are essentially asking the Christian community to reclassify being homosexual as a non sin. "Just an alternative Lifestyle"

So when they ask for me if I will accept reclassifying being gay to being a non-sin, then that is a horse of a different color my friend, lol. That's not just an alerternitive lifestyle, that is sinful and in rebellion to God's laws (and common sense).
Oh, but Orientation is a prefrence thing, not a big deal...Really?

Suppose for the sake of conversation that Gays gained all the acceptance from the church that they dream of, ok? Open arms from the church to all alphabet people, we love you! Ok...Now riddle me this:

What's next after that? Do the Pedophiles stand up and say, where's my rights too. being a pedo is just an orientation, not any worse than the gays for sure so we want accepted to...What should we say to them? Should we accept Pedo's as human beings deserving of respect and acceptance?
No you might say, being abc is not being a sexual predator to children! Oh my gosh! They are breaking the law to prey on children sexually!....

So what's not illegal about gay people? (Let's all remember that we are Brothers & Sisters in Christ and look to our Lord First!) ok?
I dont know if being gay is against the law anymore. I know it used to be against the law. Did they change it? I don't care if they act like it is not illegal to be gay, what does our Lord's Law say? We look to Jesus first...and He said such sexually immoral behavior is an abomination to Him and punishable by death. (The wages of sin is death).

So even if man's law says that being gay is not sinful or illegal, we look to God's law first. If there is ever a discrepancy between man's law and God's law, we must then go by God's law. Am I right?

 

[MA2444]

Recently I have been accused of being a "homo" (I'm not) and for "lying" (I didn't) about being a Christian (in Christ). - Sigh.

That thread needed a light hearted moment in jest. Dont go thin skinned on us! I know you're not homo.

But is being homo a sin against God's law or not? Yes or no will do. That is where we must start. Is it or is it not a sinful behavior?

They are human beings that live in a fallen world. Sin abounds everywhere. Deception abounds everywhere. Do you want being homosexual to be reclassifyed as a non sin?

Or is it a sin?

 

[MA2444]

1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?
2) Does God love LGBTQ humans?
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?
4) Has the church recognized these factors?
5) Has the church acted accordingly?
6) What is your church, or fellowship, doing about this issue?
7) What can you do personally to grapple with this issue?

1. Of course they were created in the image of God!
2. For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him shal have everlasting life!!!
3. Yes He did die for them as a rescue operation to save them from their sins!
4. Of course the church knows that Jesus died for all.
5. Very few have from what I hear. More & more they are accepting them.
6. Banned from the premesis if they are unrepentant or not seeking the Lord. Accepted and helped if they are repentant and seeking change. (This is my attitude, I am not presently a member of any corporate church anywhere. The good ones are too far, the close ones are misguided and leave me wanting)
7. I can speak in Truth and Love to the misguided Humans that I run across. I can make a stand for God's word when it is not given enough consideration and belief.

 

[Behold]

Gender Dysphoria: The situation where a birth sex male feels that they are a female in a male body.
Or a birth sex female feels that they are a male in a female body. Usually realized in adolescence.

This is mental illness.
So, the abuse is to allow it to be legalized, as then instead of helping the person you are enabling their mental issue.

 

[St. SteVen]

So are these discussions helping you learn to debate this issue better, in your opinion? I hope so, but, that said, you're still wrong, lol! The scripture jumped out at me, be as wise as serpants and harmless as doves...Now, you can't blame a christian brother for doing that now, could you?

You actually called me a "homo", twice I think. Which was false. (both times) - LOL
Was that being harmless as a dove to me, your "christian brother"?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

So soon you start another thread like this?

The other thread wasn't mine.
But it indicated a vacuous ignorance about LGBTQ issues. Especially simple definitions.
What did you learn from the OP of this thread?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

So let's look at it that way. Spiritually. Not humanly. Spiritually. In spirit and in truth. Do you agree?

You are compounding the problem. This is not a solution.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

So when they ask for me if I will accept reclassifying being gay to being a non-sin, then that is a horse of a different color my friend, lol. That's not just an alerternitive lifestyle, that is sinful and in rebellion to God's laws (and common sense).
Oh, but Orientation is a prefrence thing, not a big deal...Really?

Suppose for the sake of conversation that Gays gained all the acceptance from the church that they dream of, ok? Open arms from the church to all alphabet people, we love you! Ok...Now riddle me this:

I'm not advocating for that.
What I am advocating is for a church that UNDERSTANDS the complexities
and realities of these issues and responds in love instead of hatred.

At the point that you understand that you are part of the problem we will be making some headway.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

So what's not illegal about gay people? (Let's all remember that we are Brothers & Sisters in Christ and look to our Lord First!) ok?
I dont know if being gay is against the law anymore. I know it used to be against the law. Did they change it? I don't care if they act like it is not illegal to be gay, what does our Lord's Law say? We look to Jesus first...and He said such sexually immoral behavior is an abomination to Him and punishable by death. (The wages of sin is death).

So even if man's law says that being gay is not sinful or illegal, we look to God's law first. If there is ever a discrepancy between man's law and God's law, we must then go by God's law. Am I right?

So, you are advocating killing gay people? Harmless as a dove again, I see. Wow.

- You wrote: "... sexually immoral behavior is an abomination to Him and punishable by death."

- Then you wrote: "If there is ever a discrepancy between man's law and God's law, we must then go by God's law. Am I right?"

Are you right? Wow.
What's wrong with this picture?

/

 

[RedFan]

To my thinking, much depends on whether homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, or a fact of one's nature. Because if it is the latter, I would say "I am as God made me. I happen to be heterosexual. If God had made me homosexual, am I to be judged harshly on that account?"

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Recently I have been accused of being a "homo" (I'm not) and for "lying" (I didn't) about being a Christian (in Christ). - Sigh.

That thread needed a light hearted moment in jest. Dont go thin skinned on us! I know you're not homo.

I called you out for labeling me as a "homo" twice. And you respond by telling me to not be so thin-skinned?
Harmless as a dove again? Not even wise as a serpent. More like harmful with your venomous bites.

But is being homo a sin against God's law or not? Yes or no will do. That is where we must start. Is it or is it not a sinful behavior?

You are behaving as part of the problem. Do you want me to answer "Yes." in an attempt to shut me up?
Is not not talking about this issue some sort of solution? (no, it isn't)

Two questions:
- How do you define homosexuality? ("homo")
- Does Gender Dysphoria fit the definition of homosexuality?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?
2) Does God love LGBTQ humans?
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?
4) Has the church recognized these factors?
5) Has the church acted accordingly?
6) What is your church, or fellowship, doing about this issue?
7) What can you do personally to grapple with this issue?

1. Of course they were created in the image of God!
2. For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him shal have everlasting life!!!
3. Yes He did die for them as a rescue operation to save them from their sins!
4. Of course the church knows that Jesus died for all.
5. Very few have from what I hear. More & more they are accepting them.
6. Banned from the premesis if they are unrepentant or not seeking the Lord. Accepted and helped if they are repentant and seeking change. (This is my attitude, I am not presently a member of any corporate church anywhere. The good ones are too far, the close ones are misguided and leave me wanting)
7. I can speak in Truth and Love to the misguided Humans that I run across. I can make a stand for God's word when it is not given enough consideration and belief.

Okay.
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
This gives us a baseline to work from. And somewhat defines that problem.

Let's look at my #5 and your reply.
St. SteVen: = 5) Has the church acted accordingly?
MA2444: = 5. Very few have from what I hear. More & more they are accepting them.

So, you understand that the church has failed to act according to points #1 to #4.
1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?
2) Does God love LGBTQ humans?
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?
4) Has the church recognized these factors?

Imagine what difference it would make if the church recognized that:
1) LGBTQ humans created in the image of God.
2) God loves LGBTQ humans.
3) Jesus died to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans.

Is that too much to ask?

'

 

[St. SteVen]

To my thinking, much depends on whether homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, or a fact of one's nature. Because if it is the latter, I would say "I am as God made me. I happen to be heterosexual. If God had made me homosexual, am I to be judged harshly on that account?"

That's a great question.
In general, the church rejects the idea that homosexuals could be born that way. (as God created them)
The claim is that homosexuality is a behavioral choice.

But this sidesteps the reality of those who discover that they have a condition called same-sex attraction.
Something they didn't ask for. They discovered it about themselves. Which indicates that they were indeed born with it.

Same thing with gender dysphoria. Which can appear as early as 3 to 5 years of age. Behavioral choice? Sin?

/

 

[amigo de christo]

This is mental illness.
So, the abuse is to allow it to be legalized, as then instead of helping the person you are enabling their mental issue.

trivia question time .
if genitals does not define gender
then why does removing and altering them affirm gender . talk about delusion indeed .
something has went bad wrong my friend .
So lets make a simple statement .
GOD does not make mistakes .
what he created us in the womb , male or female
is what we are to the tomb . its really that simple , lest we be as many and try and call GOD a liar and redifine
what humanity deems themselves to be . its insanity my friend , all out reprobation .

 

[St. SteVen]

You mean a flaming Homo Sapien?

I can't say that I've seen you flame anybody.

LOL - Thanks.
Do you think this topic might help readers to understand these issues better?
They seem to struggle with even the most basic definitions.
The previous thread showed that posters were assuming homosexual behavior of those with gender dysphoria.
Clearly two different things. They seem to want to view LGBTQ as a singular thing.

/

 

[Behold]

St. SteVen said:

1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?


'

They were not created that way.

They DECIDED at some point, during their progressive mental illness, that they were "trapped in the body of the opposite gender".

So, to encourage this is to attempt to enable their mental illness to persevere...., and any Christian who would do that, has some "head issues" of their own.

We the Born again, must love what God loves, accept what God accepts, and never anything else.

We are not to TOLERATE by acceptance, what God does not Accept.

And in our resistance to accept and BLINDLY TOLERATE how the world system, that's devil owned and operated, = continues to twist people and derange them... we are to understand what is happening to them, and always deal with them with compassion and grace.

Yet, we never offer this to anyone who supports enabling mental illness.

 

[Behold]

The previous thread showed that posters were assuming homosexual behavior of those with gender dysphoria.

Lets say that a boy who is 14, decided that he's a girl.

"mom, im really a girl".......

So, Lets look at God's perspective of it.., regarding the sexuality that they will pursue after they are castrated, and fed chemicals that will grow breasts and cause body hair to regress, and the voice to achieve a higher pitch.

And they get a new name and they learn how to wear makeup and eyelashes, and hight heels and stockings and fake nails and lipstick and lip gloss.

They use to be DOUG... but now they are Delilah....


Now, does God see that one as a "Female" now?

So, after this boy has been physically altered, and is now 18 and is recognized by some who have no common sense as a "girl", and this mentally ill eunuch finds a boyfriend and they become lovers and get married and adopt 2 baby boys.

Is that gay sexuality they are enjoying as their sex life??

God says "that homosexuality".

Honesty says.."Thats Homosexuality".

And if a so called "christian" would argue that its not, then that one is in need of prayer and counseling, and even more then that... to be honest.
They need a ""checkup from the neck up"

 

[RedFan]

They were not created that way.

They DECIDED at some point, during their progressive mental illness, that they were "trapped in the body of the opposite gender".

Perhaps your view of whether homosexuality is of biological origin or personal choice affects your reaction to it. Studies show that that is quite common. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.0038-4941.2004.08501005.x

But let's say for argument's sake you are wrong, and it IS of biological origin. What would your reaction be then? "Too bad for those made that way, they must still be celibate for life to avoid offending God's commandment?"