Christ's sinless Head with a sinful body?

[Peterlag]

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

The only expertise we need is to compare what is written, to what others say is written, and is not.

We all must conform our minds, and hearts, and lives to the Bible, not the other way around.

The only new revelation I seek is that which is only new for me from the Bible. Knowing with certainty the Bible doctrine and revelation of Christ, is enough for me.

I thank God I've not gone to the third heaven, by some of the newly revealed stuff from it, that I've seen here.

How any man can possibly think he has new revelation of truth from God, that does not need be confirmed and conformed to Bible doctrine already given to us, shows an experience of a 3rd kind of heaven, that is not the heaven of God.

Have 10 guys all who say they are Christian look at the same verse and we get 10 different view points and all say theirs is correct because they have the holy spirit. And just when I was able to cut my way through that they came up with 30 different Bibles.

 

[Ghada]

Have 10 guys all who say they are Christian look at the same verse and we get 10 different view points and all say theirs is correct because they have the holy spirit. And just when I was able to cut my way through that they came up with 30 different Bibles.

I actually believe that God has written His word in a way to expose the believers and unbelievers. Many verses can indeed be read from differing views; however, God always has one or two indisputable verses for every argument. If we believe the 'proof text', the we argue every other verse from that faith. If we don't believe the plain text, then we will argue everything from that unbelief.

Example: The Word was God. This verse is either believed or not. There is nothing to argue about.

And so, every other verse having to do with the Godhead will be argued with belief in John 1:1, or unbelief.

Many times arguing with the unbeliever's take on the Bible verses is a good exercise in correction, by giving the faithful interpretation.

It can be a good way to more perfectly understand God's words, by the discipline of honestly correcting the errors. And if it's our errors that are corrected, then all the better.

To me, it's all about the true doctrine of Christ. Others apparently have their consciences invested in what they want to be the doctrine of God.

 

[Peterlag]

I actually believe that God has written His word in a way to expose the believers and unbelievers. Many verses can indeed be read from differing views; however, God always has one or two indisputable verses for every argument. If we believe the 'proof text', the we argue every other verse from that faith. If we don't believe the plain text, then we will argue everything from that unbelief.

Example: The Word was God. This verse is either believed or not. There is nothing to argue about.

And so, every other verse having to do with the Godhead will be argued with belief in John 1:1, or unbelief.

Many times arguing with the unbeliever's take on the Bible verses is a good exercise in correction, by giving the faithful interpretation.

It can be a good way to more perfectly understand God's words, by the discipline of honestly correcting the errors. And if it's our errors that are corrected, then all the better.

To me, it's all about the true doctrine of Christ. Others apparently have their consciences invested in what they want to be the doctrine of God.

You would have to start off with your first example being "The Word was God" and then mention a "Godhead" on the next sentence. I have no idea how you can use both concepts together. "Godhead" and "The Word was God." Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens.

It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Ghada]

You would have to start off with your first example being "The Word was God" and then mention a "Godhead" on the next sentence. I have no idea how you can use both concepts together. "Godhead" and "The Word was God." Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens.

Actually I wasn't trying to provoke a created christ debate, or of Oneness.

I didn't say anything about Jesus, but only the Word was God. And so, when speaking of the Godhead, we believe the Word was God, and so the Godhead is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.

It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

Jesus Christ the Son is the expressed living image of God's Person in the flesh. He was God Being in the flesh.
He was not just an 'expression' of God in the beginning as God, nor when coming in the flesh as man.

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man.

The pre-appearances of the Word on earth with a man's body, was to visit Abraham and Jacob as that of angels.

His 'existence' is God from everlasting to everlasting. The Word was God, not just an expression of God.

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

This of course is true. The Word in the beginning with God was God. Neither just and expression nor a book.

In any case, if someone does not believe that the Word with God in the beginning was God, then of course they're going argue something else about Him coming in the flesh.

Such as in your philosophic lexical argument. It's good Hellenic theological philosophy, but not Bible doctrine and revelation of God.

And in this case of the Godhead, there are three more verses of indisputable proof:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest;

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

The Word made flesh is the Son, that is God, Lord, and the true God with the Father and the Holy Ghost. Any other 'Son of God' than both Lord and God, is an idol of men.

The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ the Son come in the flesh. God Himself living the true life of God in the flesh.

 

[TomKBrown]

When discussing the sinlessness of Christ compared to the sinfulness of mankind it's important to understand that Christ is, without sin (as mentioned in 1 John 3;5 and Hebrews 7;26) while His followers grapple with sin. Romans 6;6 11 and Ephesians 4;24 talk about how believers in Christ undergo a transformation. This transformation is not a separation between a leader and a sinful body but rather a process of striving towards holiness where believers, though imperfect gradually become more like Christ (as described in Romans 8;29). It is, through this journey that the church, as the body of Christ is called to reflect His holiness.

 

[Ghada]

When discussing the sinlessness of Christ compared to the sinfulness of mankind it's important to

It's important to understand first that Jesus was sinless, because He did not sin, and all other men make themselves sinful by sinning.

And so, if the sinning ceases for any man, then like Jesus we are no longer sinful. Without sinning is being without sin. Only by sinning does a man have and know sin. Like one flesh marriage, only by sinning can man become one spirit with the devil.

And only by doing righteousness of God and sinning not, can man become one spirit and body with the Lord.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

understand that Christ is, without sin (as mentioned in 1 John 3;5 and Hebrews 7;26) while His followers grapple with sin.

His followers are overcoming temptation and sinning not. Like Jesus, the fight is now with temptation to sin not.

Those lusting and sinning are not followers of Jesus Christ, which is impossible. No man can be following Jesus in His light, while walking in darkness. No man is a sinning child of the devil, and righteous son of God. No man can be righteous and doing unrighteousness. Only those doing righteousness are righteous sons of God.

No man can be a part of Jesus' holy body while sinning. There are no sinful members of the body of the sinless Head Christ Jesus.

No man can be good and doing evil at the same time. There is no such thing as being spiritual clean and outwardly unrighteous.

Romans 6;6 11 and Ephesians 4;24 talk about how believers in Christ undergo a transformation.

The sanctification and circumcision of Christ is instant with a new heart and life toward God. The Spirit of God is sharp and quick with Christ's circumcision of the foreskin of the heart. The pure religion of Jesus Christ is not a progressively hacking process of sinning less.

The gospel of the Bible is to repent of sinning first to have saving faith toward God. Another gospel is to believe unto salvation with repentance only following in part.

The transformation is the renewed mind learning to continue pure of heart and life, while enduring the trials of temptations and tribulations.

If we sin, we are not sanctified nor circumcised, nor being conformed to His living image.

Growth in the grace of Christ does not including sinning against His Spirit of grace. The maturing is from a pure newborn babe with new heart, to a pure-hearted grown adult with renewed mind.

This transformation is not a separation between a leader and a sinful body

The transformation is not with a sinful body. Sinful people separate themselves from Christ by sins and trespasses.

The transformation and growth and conformity to Christ is only between the sinless leader and His members not sinning against Him.

but rather a process of striving towards holiness where believers, though imperfect

Transgressors are not imperfect, but are enemies of God. Sinning is not imperfection, but serving the devil.

Imperfection is not a sin, but the unperfected spirit and mind, that can be tempted to sin. Jesus was not perfected, until He endured all temptation unto the end on the cross.

The perfectionism of God on the throne is to not be tempted at all. (James 1) The perfection of Christians like Jesus, is to be tempted like all men, but without sinning like transgressors against God.

gradually become more like Christ (as described in Romans 8;29). It is, through this journey that the church, as the body of Christ is called to reflect His holiness.

Perfect His holiness:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

We don't reflect His holiness, we do and live it in all things.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Every one repenting of all sins and trespasses and born again of God, is a newborn babe in Christ Jesus with a pure heart, divine nature, and holy life.

Perfecting the righteousness and holiness of God in His fear, is learning how most quickly and sufficiently to resist the devil and his devices, and sin not.

If we sin, the only thing we are learning is how to fall to temptation and sin like all the world. We must come to the Advocate of the world to repent and be forgiven and born again into His grace.

God's grace is for help in time of need to overcome temptation, not for help in time of sinning to be judged guiltless.

If we fall to sin, we have refused the help of the Spirit of grace, and sinned with the devil as transgressors, rather than endured temptation to sin not as sons of God.

 

[Peterlag]

Actually I wasn't trying to provoke a created christ debate, or of Oneness.

I didn't say anything about Jesus, but only the Word was God. And so, when speaking of the Godhead, we believe the Word was God, and so the Godhead is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.



Jesus Christ the Son is the expressed living image of God's Person in the flesh. He was God Being in the flesh.
He was not just an 'expression' of God in the beginning as God, nor when coming in the flesh as man.


The pre-appearances of the Word on earth with a man's body, was to visit Abraham and Jacob as that of angels.

His 'existence' is God from everlasting to everlasting. The Word was God, not just an expression of God.


This of course is true. The Word in the beginning with God was God. Neither just and expression nor a book.

In any case, if someone does not believe that the Word with God in the beginning was God, then of course they're going argue something else about Him coming in the flesh.

Such as in your philosophic lexical argument. It's good Hellenic theological philosophy, but not Bible doctrine and revelation of God.

And in this case of the Godhead, there are three more verses of indisputable proof:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest;

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

The Word made flesh is the Son, that is God, Lord, and the true God with the Father and the Holy Ghost. Any other 'Son of God' than both Lord and God, is an idol of men.

The Word made flesh is Jesus Christ the Son come in the flesh. God Himself living the true life of God in the flesh.

So you are for the most part a trinity guy.

 

[Ghada]

So you are for the most part a trinity guy.

Since the verses I give plainly say so, then of course. I really don't understand why some people read the Bible and don't just believe some of it.

I mean, any book reader can read it and at least acknowledge what it is saying. Someone doesn't have to be a believer in the Bible to understand what the Author is saying. Simple grammatical honesty can do that.

Another verse is in John 17, where Jesus Christ is speaking of His people being one even as He and the Father is one. Since it's not possible for people to be one and the same persons, then the Son and the Father are not one and the same Persons.

Bible 'oneness' is that of unity, as when the Israelites were as one man with one heart on the battlefield. (Judges 6:16)

It's not hard to understand the Bible teaching of single hearted unity. God revealed the unity of His Godhead in Gen 1. And He proved His perfect unity of heart even while on earth as man. That's the perfect unity of heart with God, that He calls all men to by His Son Jesus.

 

[Peterlag]

Since the verses I give plainly say so, then of course. I really don't understand why some people read the Bible and don't just believe some of it.

I mean, any book reader can read it and at least acknowledge what it is saying. Someone doesn't have to be a believer in the Bible to understand what the Author is saying. Simple grammatical honesty can do that.

Another verse is in John 17, where Jesus Christ is speaking of His people being one even as He and the Father is one. Since it's not possible for people to be one and the same persons, then the Son and the Father are not one and the same Persons.

Bible 'oneness' is that of unity, as when the Israelites were as one man with one heart on the battlefield. (Judges 6:16)

It's not hard to understand the Bible teaching of single hearted unity. God revealed the unity of His Godhead in Gen 1. And He proved His perfect unity of heart even while on earth as man. That's the perfect unity of heart with God, that He calls all men to by His Son Jesus.

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

 

[Ghada]

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son.

Neither does any verse say the Father is God.

God does not have to overstate the obvious just to please the naysayers, who would still refuse to believe and demand even more 'explicitness' from God.

Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible.

Not any teaching naysayers would ever believe.

The Word was God. The Word was made flesh. And was the only begotten Son of the Father. He was the Son of God called by the name Jesus.

Jesus Christ was the God the Word made flesh, God the Son come in the flesh.

The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid:

Whether Jews or Christians.

The Catholics who invented this nonsense

Catholics didn't invent anything but Mariology. The defense of the Bible for Jesus God the Son, was established by church leaders against the heresies of Docetism, Arianism, and Gnosticism.

I'm not sure when the created christ angel myth was created.

have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament.

Now you reject the principle of rightly dividing the word of truth, which is by the mouth of two or three (or 8) witnesses, the truth is established.

And you also contradict yourself. You first say there is no teaching of it in the Bible, and then you acknowledge verses used to teach it.

There is no teaching anywhere for a created christ, nor for Mariology. There are no verses at all that can be taken together for such myths.

But with God the Son, there certainly are, beginning with the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh.

It's the same for all doctrine and prophecy of the Bible. One or two undeniable verses establish the truth, and then there are other verses clarifying and expanding on it for believers.

Those other verses become wrestling and stomping grounds of unbelievers, who try to put out the Spirit's fire of inspiration and revelation.

One should think if such nonsense was true and important

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

One rejection of undeniable verses lead to others, and in the end we find it begins with justifying continued sinful living.

 

[Peterlag]

Neither does any verse say the Father is God.

God does not have to overstate the obvious just to please the naysayers, who would still refuse to believe and demand even more 'explicitness' from God.


Not any teaching naysayers would ever believe.

The Word was God. The Word was made flesh. And was the only begotten Son of the Father. He was the Son of God called by the name Jesus.

Jesus Christ was the God the Word made flesh, God the Son come in the flesh.


For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid:

Whether Jews or Christians.



Catholics didn't invent anything but Mariology. The defense of the Bible for Jesus God the Son, was established by church leaders against the heresies of Docetism, Arianism, and Gnosticism.

I'm not sure when the created christ angel myth was created.





Now you reject the principle of rightly dividing the word of truth, which is by the mouth of two or three (or 8) witnesses, the truth is established.

And you also contradict yourself. You first say there is no teaching of it in the Bible, and then you acknowledge verses used to teach it.

There is no teaching anywhere for a created christ, nor for Mariology. There are no verses at all that can be taken together for such myths.

But with God the Son, there certainly are, beginning with the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh.

It's the same for all doctrine and prophecy of the Bible. One or two undeniable verses establish the truth, and then there are other verses clarifying and expanding on it for believers.

Those other verses become wrestling and stomping grounds of unbelievers, who try to put out the Spirit's fire of inspiration and revelation.



Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

One rejection of undeniable verses lead to others, and in the end we find it begins with justifying continued sinful living.

There's a reason why you say "Neither does any verse say the Father is God." Because the word "Father" is an English word that we use to define a parent. It's a name or tile and not a a life form. Same with me. I'm not a son, brother, and uncle.

 

[Ghada]

There's a reason why you say "Neither does any verse say the Father is God." Because the word "Father" is an English word that we use to define a parent. It's a name or tile and not a a life form. Same with me. I'm not a son, brother, and uncle.

The plot thickens. There is no stating of the obvious to an unbeliever.

God is just a title too then, not a life form.

 

[Maxim]

Am I understanding it right, that when some people are teaching about separated head from sinful body they mean sin is allowed? I understand this is bad and we shouldn't sin, but it's bad to teach you should be holy in every deed. You should be holy, but you're not supposed to completely stop sinning. If you could do so, then you could as well fulfil all the law and there's no reason to die for us. There's a sense of guilt is coming, when you think you're separated from God by your sinning. You shouldn't sin but you can't completely not to sin anyway, so that's why I'm the Bible it's said you should further yourself away from sin (move away). (But, obviously, some sins such as fornication, drinking and smoking are not normal.)

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8‭-‬10 KJV

... And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:3‭-‬4 KJV

Or: Whosoever does sin does also crime, and sin is the crime.

 

[Maxim]

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

Neither does any verse say the Father is God.

Sorry, that I'm butting in, but it wasn't invented by Catholics, it's stated directly in the Bible. Not so directly as to say Father is God, but it said many times by Jesus "your Heavenly Father" in Sermont of the Mount and many other places, so, yes, there's no need to state the obvious, as there can't be another our father in the heaven except for God.

Jesus directly says, His Father is God:

54 Jesus answered, If I honour(glorify*) myself, my honour(glory) is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth(glorifies) me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 8:54 KJV
* — makes himself known, i.e. famous

Old Testament has similar as well:

A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master(lord): if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master(Lord), where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
Malachi 1:6 KJV

So it's quite obvious and not a topic to argue about.

 

[Maxim]

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

Sorry I didn't read correctly. That Son is God is clear from multiple verses, not from one. In the context of the whole Bible.

1) Son is a form and image of the God. I.e. physical body.

.. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:15 KJV

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Hebrews 1:3 NIV

who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:6‭-‬7 KJV

New Testament says there's Son, Father and Holy Spirit. Father is invisible and Son is the image and form of God. When it's said "the image of the invisible God", then no matter what word you're using image/representation etc, when it's said "of the invisible God", it just means something you can see, i.e. physical body.

2) This physical body is called the Lord God in the Old Testament, because new Testament says Father is invisible.

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Genesis 3:8‭-‬9 KJV

Look at how it's written "the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day".
It's only perverted JWs say Jesus is not a God, no matter, what you say. They perverted already the meaning of both words "the lord" and "God". They perverted Isaiah 9:6, where it's said that Son is given to us and He'll be called Mighty God (Jesus is a "small god" to them, just as God compared Moses with God(Exodus 7:1), they say Jesus is just comparison as well).
They perverted the meaning of both words "the Lord" and "God" separately, but they can never spoil the meaning of "the LORD God", which is obviously only about the only true God and no one else.

3) Obviously there's only one image of God and Father doesn't have another separate image. If Father has body as well, why would He send His Son to die and not go Himself if He loves us? If Son doesn't have any relation to God, then what is the meaning of His death and how would it purify our sins? It doesn't make any sense to have two images of God, one for Son and one for Father, but there's an image of the invisible God, whom Father calls His Son.


Even without all of it, New Testament says everything (and universe as well) is created by Jesus and sustained by His power, whereas Old Testament says it was God who created it.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:15‭-‬18 KJV

Jesus does not change, just as God.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachi 3:6 KJV
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning(change*).
James 1:17 KJV
* — i.e. not even a hint of change

Jesus is without beginning of days, just as God. It's written, that he's firstborn of all creation, but that a body was created, doesn't mean a spirit was as well.

3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
Hebrews 7:3 NIV

Jesus is perfect in his spirit and character, just as God. Whereas even angels have shortcomings.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Colossians 2:9 NIV
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; And his angels he charged with folly(*)
Job 4:18 KJV
* — in russian it's written "in His angels He sees shortcomings"

(As you may guess, I hate Jehovah Witnesses)

 

[Ghada]

Am I understanding it right, that when some people are teaching about separated head from sinful body they mean sin is allowed?

Not allowed.

The law of sin and death has not changed. We separate ourselves from God and Christ by our sins and trespasses.

I understand this is bad and we shouldn't sin, but it's bad to teach you should be holy in every deed.

It's not 'bad' to live holy in every deed, nor to preach it.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

You should be holy, but you're not supposed to completely stop sinning.

God commands us to be holy in all things and sin not. You display a doubleminded life of contradictions.

"We're supposed to live holy, but we're not supposed to stop living unholy,"

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

If you could do so, then you could as well fulfil all the law and there's no reason to die for us.

It's because no man has done so, that He did need come and die and rise again.

And It's because He has done so, that we now have His example and Spirit and power of resurrection to now do so ourselves.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There's a sense of guilt is coming, when you think you're separated from God by your sinning.

There's a sure guilt and separation from God coming by our sinning. The law of sin and death has not changed for them still sinning and dying to God.

And worse there's also a searing of conscience coming, if we resist the convicting Spirit of grace. And instead choose to believe we are not guilty of sinning and separated from God, as others are that do the same things.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind...

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Living in Christ Jesus is not a life of 'avoiding guilt' for sinning in our minds, but rather of repenting of sinning from our hearts.

You shouldn't sin but you can't completely not to sin anyway,

Once again, your preach your unrepented heart of unbelief, to not go and sin no more and to not, sin not.

so that's why I'm the Bible it's said you should further yourself away from sin (move away).

All the way, not just some of the way:

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God's repentance is from all sinning, not just some sins.

(But, obviously, some sins such as fornication, drinking and smoking are not normal.)

Which is what you preach here: repenting of sinning only in part.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Ghada]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I John 1 is not speaking to the saints in light. He is only rebuking the sinners that say they are in the light, while walking in darkness.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

All unrighteousness is sin:

Since we are cleansed from all unrighteousness and sin, then how can them cleansed in His blood have sin and unrighteousness?

It's not possible to have sin in Christ Jesus, in whom is no sin.

There are no sinful members of the body of the sinless Head Jesus Christ.

... And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:3‭-‬4 KJV

Or: Whosoever does sin does also crime, and sin is the crime.

True. You now are quoting the words of God.

So, if you just leave His words alone without adding your own mind to it, then you will be preaching the pure religion of Jesus Christ in the Bible, and not your own life's religion of certainly sinning some more.

You certainly must know that saying it is 'bad' to live holy in all manner of life, and it's also 'bad' to preach it, is certainly not the good news gospel of Jesus Christ preached Himself and His apostles.

Right?

 

[Maxim]

Right?

Man, you're too much. Very offensive with many assumptions about me without thinking, saying I didn't repent etc. I'm not preaching my own gospel, that's what Bible says. No matter what you do, you'll continue to sin and Bible admits it. No one is righteous and can't be. It's impossible to be saved through your deeds. And God isn't expecting from you to completely stop sinning, because He knows, it's impossible for human. You put very much pressure on people with your words. You should be holy, but you can't.

Paul says:
What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh? for if Abraham by works was declared righteous, he hath to boast — but not before god; for what doth the writing say? ‘And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him — to righteousness;’ and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt; and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious(*), his faith is reckoned — to righteousness: even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works: ‘Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered; happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.’
Romans 4:1‭-‬8 YLT98
* — changed translation due to this word. It says ungodly but this has nothing to do with God, they are ungodly in a sense they're sinners. Another options are: impious(here), and wicked. You can check it here: Romans 4:5 Interlinear: and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness: (click on number)

You're saved by your faith and God declares you righteous through your faith, because it's impossible to be righteous through your deeds. And even if you would be, it wouldn't be as good as through faith, as it's written above. Even if Abraham would have became righteous through works, then he wouldn't even have had anything to boast before God, because it would have been like a pay to a hired worker. But He justifies him (even through he's a sinner) due to his faith, calls him a friend and gives him eternal life for free as a gift. By faith you're friend with gift and by deeds you're just a paid hireling even if works are perfect. It's not required of you to be perfect of works, but be pure in faith.
What I'm saying is He doesn't expect from you to completely stop sinning, but you yourself should stop doing it as much as you can, to have good conscience. I'm not saying you can leave some sins of your choice, but we have peace with God through Jesus and are no longer separated from Him through our sins. Jesus Crist died for our past, present and all future sins.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable(*); There is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit; The poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:9‭-‬20 KJV
* — worthless(NIV, NET), improper, everyone is no good

Everyone is equal before God through their deeds. Everyone is a sinner and everyone is no good. If you're thinking you're better than others and closer to God because you're less of a sinner then they are, you're wrong. You're completely nothing through your deeds and only through your faith you become closer to Him. Though if you leave sin by fulfilling His word it's also works of faith and it would be good, but you're not closer to Him because you sin less, but due to works of faith by fulfilling His word.

But you're not required to completely leave sin to be saved and you can't do so. Salvation is through faith.

What is man, that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; Yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, Which drinketh iniquity like water?
Job 15:14‭-‬16 KJV

The sins you have citated are very obvious and directly lead to death if you continue to sin with them, I'm not saying any of it is allowed in any form, not even from time to time. (But even if you sin by any of it, if you repent wholeheartedly you'll be saved.) What I'm saying is you can't be holy, I know Christians are called holy in the Bible, but you can't fulfill the law to the very end. You can't be kind to everyone, humble yourself completely before God and completely abstain from sin. You can't be righteous by your deeds. And no one can for "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified".

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 19:25‭-‬26 KJV

Jesus directly says it's impossible.

I John 1 is not speaking to the saints in light. He is only rebuking the sinners that say they are in the light, while walking in darkness.

Now this is something new. He's not rebuking anyone at all and this message is written to believers. You're speaking completely from yourself now. Read, then, in NIV:

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 1:5‭-‬2:2 NIV

John says: we shouldn't walk in darkness, but in light, just like He is. But we're sinners anyway, and if we're not admitting it, we're liars. We shouldn't sin, but walk in light, but even if we sin, we have an advocate in the heavens, who's the atoning sacrifice for our sins. There's not even one word of rebuke. It's just the right way to say about it.

 

[Peterlag]

The plot thickens. There is no stating of the obvious to an unbeliever.

God is just a title too then, not a life form.

God is Spirit
Jesus
What's the third?

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry I didn't read correctly. That Son is God is clear from multiple verses, not from one. In the context of the whole Bible.

1) Son is a form and image of the God. I.e. physical body.

.. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:15 KJV

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Hebrews 1:3 NIV

who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:6‭-‬7 KJV

New Testament says there's Son, Father and Holy Spirit. Father is invisible and Son is the image and form of God. When it's said "the image of the invisible God", then no matter what word you're using image/representation etc, when it's said "of the invisible God", it just means something you can see, i.e. physical body.

2) This physical body is called the Lord God in the Old Testament, because new Testament says Father is invisible.

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Genesis 3:8‭-‬9 KJV

Look at how it's written "the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day".
It's only perverted JWs say Jesus is not a God, no matter, what you say. They perverted already the meaning of both words "the lord" and "God". They perverted Isaiah 9:6, where it's said that Son is given to us and He'll be called Mighty God (Jesus is a "small god" to them, just as God compared Moses with God(Exodus 7:1), they say Jesus is just comparison as well).
They perverted the meaning of both words "the Lord" and "God" separately, but they can never spoil the meaning of "the LORD God", which is obviously only about the only true God and no one else.

3) Obviously there's only one image of God and Father doesn't have another separate image. If Father has body as well, why would He send His Son to die and not go Himself if He loves us? If Son doesn't have any relation to God, then what is the meaning of His death and how would it purify our sins? It doesn't make any sense to have two images of God, one for Son and one for Father, but there's an image of the invisible God, whom Father calls His Son.


Even without all of it, New Testament says everything (and universe as well) is created by Jesus and sustained by His power, whereas Old Testament says it was God who created it.

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:15‭-‬18 KJV

Jesus does not change, just as God.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachi 3:6 KJV
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning(change*).
James 1:17 KJV
* — i.e. not even a hint of change

Jesus is without beginning of days, just as God. It's written, that he's firstborn of all creation, but that a body was created, doesn't mean a spirit was as well.

3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
Hebrews 7:3 NIV

Jesus is perfect in his spirit and character, just as God. Whereas even angels have shortcomings.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Colossians 2:9 NIV
18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; And his angels he charged with folly(*)
Job 4:18 KJV
* — in russian it's written "in His angels He sees shortcomings"

(As you may guess, I hate Jehovah Witnesses)

Let's take a look at the first one you list... “image.” The Greek word is eikōn (εἰκών), and it means “image.” Jesus was the image of God in the sense in which he said that if we had seen him, we had seen the Father. Trinitarians claim that this verse shows that Jesus is God, but that cannot be the case, because it speaks of Christ being “the image [eikon] of the invisible God.” If Christ were “God” then the verse would simply say so, rather than that he was the “image” of God. The Father is plainly called “God” in dozens of places, and this would have been a good place to say that Jesus was God. Instead, we are told that Christ is the image of God. If one thing is the “image” of another thing, then the “image” and the “original” are not the same thing.