Sounds like a flower child cult really. Some people can't handle the tough subjects. Arrrggghhhh!
Unforgiveness and fellowship with God
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Papa Smurf
Active Member
Hello again Dev, the devil and all of his minions are already condemned and w/o hope (they have no Savior like we do). We are commanded to resist them (and hopefully, with God's help, we do), but forgive them? No! (have you ever heard of a penitent demon?
)The command from the Lord Jesus seems clear enough, yes?
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him" .. Luke 17:3.
As far as the sincerity of someone's repentance goes, that's a tough one. If it's blatantly clear that they are insincere (e.g. - it is mocking and/or highly sarcastic) then, of course, you don't offer them forgiveness because they aren't asking for it.
However, if we're not "sure" whether it's genuine or an act, then I think that we need to follow the Lord's command w/o reservation. As theologian Sinclair Ferguson has said,
"Be obedient, even when you do not know where obedience may lead you"
Also, where does the Bible tell us to withhold forgiveness from someone if their repentance doesn't seem to meet our standard of genuiness/sincerity? It seems to me that that is a very dangerous path to go down, especially when it comes to the forgiveness of someone who has recently harmed us (as our emotions may play far too much of a role in our decision making in such a case). So, since He says, forgive them ~if they repent~, not, forgive them ~if they seem sincere enough~, maybe we should just do what He commands? And if we learn later on that the repentance was insincere, then that's a sin that may need to be dealt with too.
You know, there are many famous cases throughout history of men who were monsters doing 180's and becoming Christians, once they experienced the depth of Lord's love and forgiveness first hand (especially when it comes from a believer who they know they have caused great harm to).
Finally, Biblical forgiveness is very much at odds with the world's version of "forgiveness", as are the purposes for each that are given by the two sides. Sadly, I would venture to say that many (or perhaps most?) Christians have come to embrace at least part of the world's model of forgiveness instead of sticking to the Biblical one
(which I sadly have to admit is something that I have been guilty of ... after all, the world's model is so attractive, quick, clean and neat, while the Biblical model can be difficult, painful and messy, or so it always seems like it will be to us, at the outset anyway).God bless you!!
--Papa Smurf
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Papa Smurf
Active Member
Hi Dan, as far as I know, that is correct (that all of our sins are forgiven at the foot of the Cross) since none of our sins can be forgiven apart from the atoning sacrifice of our Savior's death/shed blood on our behalf .. e.g. Hebrews 9:22.
So, along with a teaching of Calvinism, I believe that the Bible teaches that those who are ~truly~ justified/saved will persevere in the faith to the end/from justification to Glory (albeit imperfectly, to one degree or another) .. e.g. John 5:24, 6:37-40, 44, 10:27-28, because God will see to it that we do (He will "preserve" us in the faith, IOW) .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1, 5:13; Jude 24-25.
This means, as others here have already mentioned in this thread, that making sure that we have truly come to saving faith in Christ is of paramount importance, which we are all commanded to do, in point of fact .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5. So, if you'd like to talk about some of the ways that help us know if God has truly saved us or not, just let me/us know (e.g. when you look back at your former life, prior to when you believe that you were saved, that is, can you point to things that have changed in your life since that time, since the day that you became a Christian? .. you may want to compare the two "lists" that are found in Galatians 5:19-23 in regard to this and ask yourself if your life, since becoming a believer, has begun to look a bit more like list #2, the "fruit of the Spirit", and a bit less, then, like list #1, the "deeds of the flesh", or not).
God bless you!!
--Papa Smurf
p.s. - here is another of the things that can help us know if our salvation is genuine or not, from theologian and pastor, A. W. Pink.
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Dan Clarkston
Active Member
Yes, I believe my faith is sincere that God raise Jesus from the dead to wash away my sins.
I did talk to the pastor and he said as long as I believe then I have nothing to worry about and I'm still saved regardless of my lifestyle.
What started me thinking about this is the guy I work with is a Christian and he's telling me the pastor is wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about.
So as long as I keep believing, I'll be saved?
Sounds easy enough.
Why do some say we aren't saved if we don't live a certain lifestyle that they approve of? What's up with that?
I thought all future sins were already forgiven? What's happened to that?
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend, yes Very Correct, as When Christ Died [ FULL Sacrifice ] On The Cross For
my sins, they were ALL future.
Thus, His Precious BLOOD Is ALL-Sufficient For my TOTAL Forgiveness For ALL Eternity!
NOsas teaching Denies This ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ Wonderful Sound Doctrine In God's Word Of Truth!!
Amen.
Dan Clarkston
Active Member
So why are some of these people giving me a hard time for smoking a little weed and sleeping with my girlfriend before we get married?
If what you just said is true, then whether we do sin or not is a moot point.
The pastor I got saved with says what you just said and he told me that this is what eternal security is and I should never let anybody talk me out of it because it's what the bible teaches
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend, the Incorrect part is "as long as I believe," because at the One-Time Initial moment
of "belief with ALL of the heart," God Performs His Eternal OPERATION upon ALL new-born babes
In Christ! = Eternal Relationship with God!
The rest of our earthly life, then, is fellowship (1 Corinthians 1:9-10) with The LORD Jesus Christ!
Are ALL "going to persevere and be faithful" in this ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑?
Biblically, no. What Saith The Scripture?:
Two carnal [ UNfaithful ] problems of Eternal saints:
1) fornication (1 Corinthians 5:1-5), and
2) taking Lord's Supper UNworthily (1 Corinthians 11:17-32)!
Are these Eternally "Condemned with the world"?
We have always stayed with The Truth Of Scriptures:
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that
the spirit may be saved in The Day of The Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of
the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."
Biblical Confirmation, As Per The Judgment Day! (1 Corinthians 3:8-15), ending:
"...If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall
receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer
loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Conclusion: lifestyle after "belief" does matter, not for salvation, but for "rewards"! Amen?
Further study: Three Tenses of God's Eternal Salvation
Amen.
Dan Clarkston
Active Member
OK so it's all good... glad to know I'll never go to hell and I'll never lose my salvation!
Ask yourself a question.
How did God/Jesus was able to forgive you?
I'll tell you the answer. Because you repented.
Jesus asked God the Father to forgive his killers because they had not repented and without repentance there is No forgiveness.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
For by grace we have been saved
That's how we were forgiven.
John 1, But as many who have received him to them gave he the right to become children of God
That's how we receive Gods grace
And is that grace given to a hater of God or to someone who actually wants it?
Lets test your theological knowledge.
How did a devout Jew deal with his sin?
How did God react to the ' going through the motions' of many Jews?
With what attitude would a devout Jew offer a sacrifice?
Dan Clarkston
Active Member
That was back under the old testament right?
Under the new testament the say God cannot even see out sin because Jesus covers us.
So it's a moot point if we sin or not since God cannot see our sin anymore.
Papa Smurf
Active Member
Hello again Dan, the vital point that I've been laboring to make to you isn't, "if you keep believing, you'll be saved" (which is certainly true), the point is, did you ever start (believing, that is)? THAT'S the all-important question that you need to really think through and answer for yourself, because the answer to that question has everything to do with, among other things, where you will be spending the rest of eternity.
Remember that both Satan and his demons know exactly who Jesus is, and they believe exactly what you do about Him (that the Father raised Jesus from the dead to save us from our sins) and yet, the demons are not/never will be saved .. e.g. James 2:19; cf Luke 8:28-30. Saving faith/believing in the Lord Jesus Christ involves 'more' than a mental ascent to/agreement with the facts about Him, it also involves things like trust and surrender, as well the desire to be saved from our sins (from our worldliness and carnality) in this life, not simply to escape the fires of Hell.
The Lord Jesus came here to save His people from their sins .. e.g. Matthew 1:21, from the 'penalty' of sin in the age to come, of course, but first and foremost, from the 'power or sway' that sin holds over all of our lives on this side of the grave (not to give us a "Get-Out-Of-Hell-For-Free" pass so that we can continue on in our sins/sinful lifestyles, because that is the very thing that sent Him to the Cross to die in our stead to begin with).
Sin and ongoing sinful "lifestyles" are not condemned by individuals, rather, they're condemned by God in the Bible. Here's a very small sampling for you to consider,
1 John 3
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such ~were~ some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Ephesians 4
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to ~put off your old self~, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
24 and to ~put on the new self~, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
1 John 2
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
1 Thessalonians 4
3 This is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God.
Our sins are atoned for at the Cross (the Lord's atoning sacrifice/shed blood is what makes atonement for our sins and makes it possible, then, for God to forgive them/forgive us), but we are forgiven of our sins when we confess them to God and repent. The verse below (that concerns the ongoing confession of our sins to God) was written to believers in the church, at all levels of maturity in the faith. Please take note that the Apostle John INCLUDES HIMSELF in the mix as well (see the words in bold).
1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
God bless you!!--Papa Smurf
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I answered it in my post. Did you read it?
Was david a devout jew?
He said sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire.
Dan Clarkston
Active Member
Yes, I definitely believe Jesus paid for my sins when I got saved.
Pretty sure that's because Jesus did not die for the sins of the devil and demons.
If true then that would have to mean all of our sins are not actually forgiven.
As I've been learning about being a believer I'm hearing that orthodox Christianity is we are saved by faith alone plus nothing and those that claim we have to quit stuff to please God are trying to earn His approval and earn their salvation.
The new testament is built upon the old testament, it does not remove it or invalidate it.
You are happy going into Go's presence fouled by sin, when you could go into his presence wish clean by Jesus.
It is not a case of God cannot see our sin, but that he will not permit it in his presence.
God's grace is given to those who repent.
There is no universal salvation.
I challe get your knowledge of the old testament and clearly you are not familiar with it.
David was a great sinner, but also a great repenter of his sins.
Yes he was devout God called him a man after his own heart. Acts 13:22.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
As I said in my post. Gods grace is given to those who receive him.. do you disagree?
lol. So we need to repent to God every time we sin to get resaved?
Papa Smurf
Active Member
Hi Dan, all of our sins are atoned for at the foot of the Cross, but God actually forgives us/forgives our sins and cleanses us of them when we confess them to Him .. e.g. 1 John 1:9 (both when we come to saving faith, and throughout our lives as believers).
We do indeed choose to stop or avoid sinning to please God, but we hardly do so to "earn His approval" or "earn our salvation" (neither of which are possible). Rather, we do so because we love our Abba (our heavenly Father) and 'want' to please Him (NOT because we have to or are required to).
As unbelievers, we did not know God, nor did we have the desire or ability to please and obey Him in our fallen state. However, all of that changes when He gives us a new heart and a new spirit (and the Holy Spirit) .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27, when He quickens us/causes us to be born again, declares us just and saves us, when we are made His workmanship as wholly new creatures in Christ, FOR/UNTO good works/holy living/etc., ~NOT~ because of these things .. e.g. John 3:3, 5, Ephesians 2:1-3, 4-5, 8-10, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
As God said to us,
Ezekiel 36
25 "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."
Also, when we sinned prior to coming to saving faith in Christ, we did so ~in accord~ with our old, sinful nature, but whenever we sin now (as believers), we do so ~in opposition~ to our new nature. This is one of the reasons why we are so grieved over sin as believers, why it cuts us to the quick whenever we commit it, and why we confess it to God and seek His forgiveness and cleansing as soon as we know that we've sinned.
Finally, while it's true that we are justified/saved by faith alone, our sanctification is something that we do with/alongside of God, as much it is possible for us to, anyway. Dr. Packer explains some of this for us in the following excerpt (concerning sanctification),
Regeneration is birth; Sanctification is growth.
In regeneration, God implants desires in us that were not there before: desire for God, for holiness, and for the hallowing and glorifying of God’s name in this world; desire to pray, worship, love, serve, honor, and please God; desire to show love and bring benefit to others.
In sanctification, the Holy Spirit “works in you to will and to act” according to God’s purpose; what he does is prompt you to “work out your salvation” (i.e., express it in action) by fulfilling these new desires (Phil. 2:12–13). Christians become increasingly Christlike as the moral profile of Jesus (the “fruit of the Spirit”) is progressively formed in them (2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; 5:19-21, 22–25) . ~Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs (p. 170). Tyndale House.
God bless you!!
--Papa Smurf
p.s. - yes, "Orthodox Christianity" (orthodox Protestantism, to be precise), along with the Bible, teaches that salvation is by faith alone. However, we also teach (again, along with the Bible), that there are many things that always "accompany" our salvation .. Hebrews 6:9, things that RESULT from/are the FRUIT of our salvation (but again, such things are never the CAUSE of our being justified/saved by God, rather, they are the RESULT).
The Epistle of James speaks to this, of two different kinds of faith, one that is lively/saving, that always results in good works/holy living/etc., and a second kind that is dead, that results in nothing. The first is the faith of the saints, the second of the unsaved and the demons (but at least the demons "shudder") .. James 2:14-26.
The Apostle Paul sums it up for us in the following short passage,
Ephesians 2
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a ~result~ of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship/masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus ~for/unto~ good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
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Papa Smurf
Active Member
Q. What does it mean to “count the cost” (Luke 14:28)?
A. In Luke 14, Jesus lays out the terms of discipleship. There were great crowds following Him. Everyone loved the miracles, healing, and free food. Jesus was cool, the talk of the town, and the latest fad. But He knew their hearts. He knew they desired the benefits of what He did rather than an understanding of who He was. They loved His gifts, not the life that He was calling them to.So He explained what it takes to be one of His followers:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-33).
Jesus said a lot in those simple illustrations. He quickly put an end to the idea that He offered some kind of welfare program. Although the gift of eternal life is free to anyone who asks (John 3:16), the asking requires a transfer of ownership (Luke 9:23; Galatians 5:24). “Counting the cost” means recognizing and agreeing to some terms first. In following Christ, we cannot simply follow our own inclinations. We cannot follow Him and the world’s way at the same time (Matthew 7:13-14). Following Him may mean we lose relationships, dreams, material things, or even our lives.
Those who are following Jesus simply for what they can get won’t stick around when the going gets tough. When God’s way conflicts with our way, we will feel betrayed by the shallow, me-first faith we have bought into. If we have not counted the cost of being His child, we will turn away at the threat of sacrifice and find something else to gratify our selfish desires (cf. Mark 4:5, 16-17). In Jesus’ earthly ministry, there came a time when the free food stopped and public opinion turned ugly. The cheering crowds became jeering crowds. And Jesus knew ahead of time that would happen.
Jesus ended His description of the cost of discipleship with a breathtaking statement: "Any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:33). “Renouncing” may mean we give up something physically, but more often it means we let go emotionally so that what we possess no longer possesses us. When we become one of His, we cannot continue to belong to this world (1 John 2:15-17). We must make a choice, for we cannot serve both God and Mammon (Matthew 6:24). The rich young ruler, when confronted with that choice, turned his back on Jesus (Luke 18:18-25).
Suppose you learned that you had been given an all-expense-paid condo on a beach in Tahiti, complete with airfare, a car, food, and a maid. You could brag about your new lifestyle, plan for it, and dream about it. But until you pack up and leave your current home, the new life is never really yours. You cannot live in Tahiti and your current hometown at the same time. Many people approach Christianity the same way. They love the idea of eternal life, escaping hell, and having Jesus at their beck and call. But they are not willing to leave the life they now live. Their desires, lifestyle, and sinful habits are too precious to them. Their lives may exhibit a token change—starting to attend church or giving up a major sin—but they want to retain ownership of everything else. Jesus is speaking in Luke 14 to those with that mindset.
We cannot earn salvation by lifestyle change or any other good deed (Ephesians 2:8-9). But when we choose to follow Christ, we are releasing control of our lives. When Jesus is in control, pure living results (1 John 3:4-10; 2 Corinthians 5:17). In Jesus’ parable of the sower, it was only the soil that allowed the seed to put down roots and bear fruit that was called “good.” If we are going to be disciples of Christ, we must first count the cost of following Him.
For additional thoughts/insights into this, this short article may be helpful to you as well:
God bless you!!
--Papa Smurf
Philippians 3
7 Whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
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