Pre-destination and the elect

[Templar81]

I'm really struggling with the idea of predestination for a select few that God ahs set aside to be spared the torments of eternal hell-fire.

As i udnerstand it, all are guilty of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore all deserve hell, but God through his mercy and grace has permitted some individuals to be with him in his kingdom, whilst all the rest burn in hell.

So before a person is born, God ah decided where they will go when they die, but what if a person who is pre-destned to go to hell becomes a Christian? is it in vain. Also, what if a person who is pre-destined for heaven becomes an athiest. Where is the justice, and mor eimportantly where is their room for free will?

You see, if we don't ahve free will then we are not responsible for what we do wrong because we are destined to do it and it is unavoidable so surely then we canot be held accountable, except for the fact that if we are destined for hell then we are held accountable for what ever we do, wether we repent or not.

I'm jsut struddling because pre-destination seems to horribly unfair and God is not unfair.

Clearly Paul believed it and Martin luther and John Calvin both believed it, so sicne it has a solid gorunding in scripture, i canot jsut dismiss it as some ind of invention of the reformation.

 

[rand]

read the verses on predestination again. Those He foreknew (in His infinite wisdom, He knew who would end up chosing His son), He predestined to be made in the image of His son. The only thing He predestined is for those that chose to believe in Christ, He predestined them to be made into Christ's image. Eph 1:5 who is the 'us' he is talking about? People that God has chosen to be saved or people who God forknew would be saved? God has not chosen anyone over another for salvation, for He is no respector of persons. He chose us all for salvation, but did we agree with Him? DId we yeild to Him and His will? That's the question. Those of us who do yeild to Him, He has predestined some pretty amazing things for us.

That's the way I see it anyway.

 

[biggandyy]

God is indeed unfair because He is Just. Justice and Fairness are inversely proportional.

 

[Templar81]

I suppose fairness is a matter of human intepretation but God is truly just and all deserve Hell, so in a way it woudl be only right for god to just send us all there. However, the gift of grace that he offers us through the deatha nd ressurection of his only son is made available to us even thouh we don't deserve it.

Man is separated from God by Sin and canot be reconciled through his own efforts, so it was neccessary for god to meet us in the person of his son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Whoesoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. So surely all who ahve faith n Christ Jesus will be spared the eternal agnies of Hell and be brought to blessd union with God as was enjoyed by Adam and Eve before their fall into sin.

I have always understood it this way and that we can either stay on the path of destruction or we can choose God's, so how then can there be a pre-destined elect.

Phillipians 2:10 at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,[sup] [/sup]and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So if everyone eventually accepts Jesus as Lord, then how can there even be an eternal hell? My understanding here is that the souls in hell will ahve full knoweldge of God but be eternally separated from him. They will know what they are missing and they will cry out to him from the flames but sadly, they will not be heard.

 

[HammerStone]

James 2:19 GW
You believe that there is one God. That's fine! The demons also believe that, and they tremble with fear.

I've oftentimes wondered about this verse, but I think if you believe in God and have the knowledge that the demons did (recall the New Testament stories of Jesus, where they knew he was the Son of God), then it takes more than mere assent to faith. The bowing of Philippians 2:10, in my view, has always been a forced bow. Meaning that, when Jesus returns, every knee bows because it will be obvious that this being is God. His glory will be unquestionable, but that does not mean everyone will fully accept that glory. Even thieves and liars bow for the king.

Yet again, go to the New Testament, there are numerous accounts where Jesus healed, yet people just simply did not believe. He performed miracles, yet the sayings got a little tough, so the crowd left him. The Pharisees were more concerned with his healing on the Sabbath, to which God visibly healed a man without touching him! If they would not assent to Jesus's lordship with miracles done in their sight, how would a glorious appearing be really any different? The majesty alone will force you to your knees, but would it change the heart above that rejected healing? I think not.

You bring up a topic that I have spent much time on lately. I've actually had a gentle rebuke from my wife because I was spending every available minute reading Scripture on this subject trying to work out my understanding of salvation. I don't say that as a pat on the back, or whatever. I say it to emphasize that it's a difficult subject, I don't have perfect answers.

I still don't even have all the answers.

However, I am left with the realization that all of our time spent on predestination/election in opposition to free will is time that could be better spent. I view them as nothing more than a view of one side of the coin. In other words, if we hold up a coin, we can only view one side at the time without using mirrors or any helps. We either see heads, or we see tails. We see in part, as the Scripture says.

Characterizing God as a God who either sends people to heaven or hell based on whim is an oversimplified caricature. On the converse, viewing ourselves as ultimate sole-determiners of our faith places us in the position of way too much power, and we achieve yet another caricature of reality. All of the various hypotheses also exist under the idea that time is moving forwards (ie: God selected us before Adam existed). Yet God is notably atemporal.

I am still working at expressing this Templar, but I'd say that God's decision at time of our creation is no different than God's decision at the end of earthly time. There is no past God and future God, there is only God. It's why he's revealed his name to us, as to which Hebrew scholars have confirmed that his name roughly translates to "He that will be," " I AM" and so on. All of these translations, titles and verses refer to God not changing, not beginning, and certainly not ceasing to exist. He does not age, either. To a large measure, this is incomprehensible to us. And, it's why Paul referred to the mystery. We can understand "sorta" how it works, but we can't pull the whole engine apart and put it back together because someone far smarter than us built it.

I once heard a Pastor, who falls on the Reformed and Calvinistic side of this debate, state that we might want to turn to Jesus at one time, but that we are not capable of turning to Jesus without his grace. I view it sort of like saying that we might have a fleeting instant where we acknowledge Jesus is "good" and we need to do good ourselves, but when the rubber hits the road, we are sinners.

I believe this satisfies Romans 9, which is the passage that I think makes you consider election/predestination most closely. We all deserve the fires of hell, but there is some reason that God elected certain people. He does not do it arbitrarily, but cannot confuse that for merit on our own part.

 

[Axehead]

God is not a "respecter of persons". Salvation has appeared to all men and He desires all men to be saved. Problem is: Not all men desire to turn from their idols to serve the Living God. God made choosing creatures and love does not force itself on others, but rather speaks the truth to them and then allows them to choose.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

If you don't choose life (Jesus) then what is the implication?

Axehead

 

[JoeinArkansas]

I'm really struggling with the idea of predestination for a select few that God ahs set aside to be spared the torments of eternal hell-fire.

As i udnerstand it, all are guilty of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore all deserve hell, but God through his mercy and grace has permitted some individuals to be with him in his kingdom, whilst all the rest burn in hell.

So before a person is born, God ah decided where they will go when they die, but what if a person who is pre-destned to go to hell becomes a Christian? is it in vain. Also, what if a person who is pre-destined for heaven becomes an athiest. Where is the justice, and mor eimportantly where is their room for free will?

You see, if we don't ahve free will then we are not responsible for what we do wrong because we are destined to do it and it is unavoidable so surely then we canot be held accountable, except for the fact that if we are destined for hell then we are held accountable for what ever we do, wether we repent or not.

I'm jsut struddling because pre-destination seems to horribly unfair and God is not unfair.

Clearly Paul believed it and Martin luther and John Calvin both believed it, so sicne it has a solid gorunding in scripture, i canot jsut dismiss it as some ind of invention of the reformation.

Dear Templar81,
I have been posted for a few weeks now on this subject and those related to this subject. Please look at my posts in "What is trusting God exactly" and a few other recent threads. Your questions are key to understanding God and His plan for His creation. No one in the "church" understands - you must "come out of her my people" to find the answers. And the answers are all in scripture for those who have been blessed with eyes that can see and ears that can hear. In a nut shell, here are your answers. God predetermined before creation who was going to be in Christ's church. That selection does not come from "foreknowledge" of who will "accept" Christ. That "selection" comes from God and for His own reasons. God chooses those He will have in His church prior to them ever being born. The church is the "first fruits" of the havest of mankind. They are highly blessed. But unlike what the "church" teaches, they are ONLY the FIRST fruits of the havest. God is going to harvest all of mankind. But the church will be first and they will be the leaders (kings and priests). But ALL of mankind will be saved before the final age ends. Hell is a fable and is unscriptural as the church teaches it. For those with spiritual understanding, the scriptures declare that Christ truly is the Savior of the world (and not just a tiny fraction of it). Here is a relevant post I made in the "what is trusting God exactly" thread (slightly edited just now). Trusting God is believing that He will do all that He says He will do and He says He will have all mankind be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1Tim 2:4-6). Here is that post:

Dear Justaname,

1Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I have addressed this verse many times before on other threads. God will have all mankind to be saved but even if it should be translated as "desires" it still carries the same meaning. God is not like a man who does not obtain all that He desires. He is GOD and He rules supreme over His creation. God gets ALL that He desires. If He wants to save all of mankind, that is exactly what He will do. So even if the verse is translated as "desires", it is still going to happen.

Isa 55:11[font=Trebuchet MS"] S o shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.[/font]

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. (Darby)

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee. (Darby)

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

READ those verses carefully - that say a lot. Since it does not give God pleasure for the wicked not to repent, then God is going to cause all mankind to repent. It is not a difficult task for Him to accomplish. God has a plan and a time for causing all men to repent. When Christ's work is completely finished, all mankind will have repented and have found salvation in Christ. God declares that He will do it. He says that is what pleases Him. He desires it. And as the verses above say, He will do it!

Your beliefs in God are bringing Him down to the level of weak mankind who God refutes as "nothing".

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

For some reason, you believe the "will" of mankind is an obstacle that God can't overcome. That belief is completely unscriptural. He rules supreme over the inhabitants of the earth and He will accomplish all that pleases Him. Someday, Christ will have all men be saved to the glory of the Father:

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No where in scripture does it say that salvation is limited to this age. Being in Christ's church is limited to this age but not salvation into the Kingdom of Heaven. Remember, the first fruits of the harvest of mankind are the leaders and the rest of mankind (who are saved later) will be the congregation. But EVERYONE who has ever lived WILL BE SAVED and come unto the knowledge of the truth. It is ALL the work of Christ and it will be "testified in due time". Only the blessed and chosen though will be in His church. That is the way God has planned it and that is the way it will happen.

Joe

 

[Templar81]

JoeinArkansas,
I get what your saying but I don't udnerstand how Hell can be unscriptural. Afterall jesus mentioned Hell more than he talked about heaven. In the NT we are warned again and again that there is a hell and it is forever, so I don't know how this cannot be supported by scripture. I'm guessing that it is a matter of reading the original Greek texts but ost of us just can't do that. However, i am open to explore the possiblity as i am really scared of hell and i would prefer to believe it doesn't exist but from my reading of scripture i just cannot see how Hell cannot be real and forever.

is there an english translation that does not mention Hell?

 

[JoeinArkansas]

JoeinArkansas,
I get what your saying but I don't udnerstand how Hell can be unscriptural. Afterall jesus mentioned Hell more than he talked about heaven. In the NT we are warned again and again that there is a hell and it is forever, so I don't know how this cannot be supported by scripture. I'm guessing that it is a matter of reading the original Greek texts but ost of us just can't do that. However, i am open to explore the possiblity as i am really scared of hell and i would prefer to believe it doesn't exist but from my reading of scripture i just cannot see how Hell cannot be real and forever.

is there an english translation that does not mention Hell?

Dear Templar81,
Yes, the translation from Greek to English is poor at times. One word in particular causes serious harm. That word in Greek is "aionios". It is commonly translated as everlasting or eternal but that definition is erroneous and was added to accomodate church teachings. It's root word is "aion" which means age or eon. It's adjective form "aionios" means "age enduring" or some similar phrasing. Young's Literal translation translates it correctly. Check the "blue letter bible" on the web - it has YLT has one of the version options.

If God is truly putting a desire in your heart to know the truth, He may be about to heal your spiritual vision. There is so much I could tell you about what God puts us through in order to travel the narrow path. Part of that experience is a time of spiritual blindness when we are deceived by Satan and follow his teachings. The hell doctrine is part of it.

I rarely refer anyone to a website but I will in your case since I believe the Lord is working in your heart. I suggest you go to bible-truths.com and read the letter Ray Smith wrote to John Hagee (TV preacher) concerning his teaching on hell. In that letter, Ray goes into the translation problem of "aionios". I highly recommend Ray's website. He is the only one I trust on the web to teach scripture. He has been a friend of mine since 2005 but he recently pass away from cancer last May. If his letter to John Hagee is helpful, then I recommend continuing on by reading Ray's teaching series entitled "The Lake of Fire". There you will find the truth of scripture - most of which you have never heard in a church. I will pray to the Lord to heal your spiritual vision because only He can make you see the Truth.

Please let me know if Ray's letter to John Hagee was helpful.
Joe

 

[MTPockets]

Hi!

Your question is derived from a misunderstanding about the "wages of sin".
You seem to have the ill-conceived idea that it is God who pays the wages of sin;
that God pays those who are employed by the devil.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but an obligation --- something owed to him";
"Every sin receives retribution; a reward or wage will be duly paid for every disobedience"
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"
"Every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward" (Rom 6:16; Rom 4:4; Heb 2:2).

God only rewards (pays) those who are employed by Him.
"He that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him", (Heb 11:6).
"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord", (1Cor 15:55)

It is the devil who pays the wages of sin to those who obey him;
while God rewards those who obey Him with the gift of eternal life, (Rom 6:23)

The Bible clearly tells us how God rewards those who obey Him:
"Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him on high, because he has known My name. He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him, And show him My salvation", (Psalm 91:14-16).

 

[JoeinArkansas]

JoeinArkansas,
I get what your saying but I don't udnerstand how Hell can be unscriptural. Afterall jesus mentioned Hell more than he talked about heaven. In the NT we are warned again and again that there is a hell and it is forever, so I don't know how this cannot be supported by scripture. I'm guessing that it is a matter of reading the original Greek texts but ost of us just can't do that. However, i am open to explore the possiblity as i am really scared of hell and i would prefer to believe it doesn't exist but from my reading of scripture i just cannot see how Hell cannot be real and forever.

is there an english translation that does not mention Hell?

Dear Templar81,
I forgot to mention that "hell" or "hades" in the Greek means the unseen place or the grave. The place of fire and torment that the church teaches is a fable. When we die, we are dead and go to the grave or hades. Upon resurrection of the lost, death and hades give up the dead for judgment. They are then cast into the Lake of Fire for their judgment to be carried out. You need to remember that the book of Revelation is a book of symbols that represent a spiritual truth. The Lake is not a lake nor is it literal fire. What it represents is a confined place of judgment from which one cannot escaped until the last cent is paid. Judgment is tempory and has a purpose. The purpose is to teach righteous to those being judged. Once that is accomplished, their judgment is over and they will be changed into a New Man in Christ. Once the last person has been changed, then Christ will deliver up the Kingdom to the Father and God will be "all in all". Sin and death will be conquered. There will be no one being tormented in the fabled hell for eternity. Christ will truly be the Savior of the world.

Jiggyfly just started a new thread on UR. Though I don't believe in "UR" as a doctrine, I do believe that Christ is the Savior of the world and will actually save the world, all in accordance with scripture. I made my first post on that thread this afternoon. Also, please read what I said about "salvation" in that post. It is greatly misunderstood by the harlot churches. Salvation is the work of Christ and He came to do TWO primary things for mankind. ONE: To give all mankind LIFE. He completed that at the cross for everyone. Don't forget that death is the penalty of sin, not the fabled hell. TWO: Christ paid for our sins at the cross, now He is working to STOP us all from sinning in the future. That is a long process within the life of each person. He will create a New Man in each person, while destroying our Old man (our carnal nature). Destruction (as is judgment) is a part of being saved. Everyone must be "destroyed" in order for the New Man in Christ to be born. Upon the Elect's resurrection, they will be "born again" and be like Christ. The church is first (ego the "first fruits"), followed by the rest of mankind in the final age. The path is the same and the end result is a New Man in Christ. The church is blessed because they are first to be changed and will have the honor of ruling and reigning with Christ over the last two ages of time that God established for His plan to save the world. If you can find some of my posts on other threads, you will find that is primarily all I write about. Also, check out my thread entitled "What is the meaning of life? Why are we here?". It is in the Apologetic Christan forum.

Joe

 

[rand]

That's good MTP. Very Good indeed. Psalm 91:14-16 pretty much outlines the greatness of our new and better covenant. In the old Covenant God said thou shall not, thou shall not, thou shall not, but in the new and better covenant, God said I will, I will , I will. and I will remember their sins no more.

Isn't God Awesome?

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Hi!

Your question is derived from a misunderstanding about the "wages of sin".
You seem to have the ill-conceived idea that it is God who pays the wages of sin;
that God pays those who are employed by the devil.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but an obligation --- something owed to him";
"Every sin receives retribution; a reward or wage will be duly paid for every disobedience"
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"
"Every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward" (Rom 6:16; Rom 4:4; Heb 2:2).

God only rewards (pays) those who are employed by Him.
"He that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him", (Heb 11:6).
"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord", (1Cor 15:55)

It is the devil who pays the wages of sin to those who obey him;
while God rewards those who obey Him with the gift of eternal life, (Rom 6:23)

The Bible clearly tells us how God rewards those who obey Him:
"Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him on high, because he has known My name. He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him, And show him My salvation", (Psalm 91:14-16).

Dear MTPockets,
The penalty of sin is death, it makes no difference if we are following the ways of Satan or Christ because we all have sinned. When we die, we are dead. There is no consciousness or knowledge of existence. We don't go anywhere but the grave. Until Christ resurrects us (either the good or evil) we will remain dead. But because Christ's death at the cross applied to all mankind, Christ was given the power to resurrect everyone. Those that He chose for the church will be resurrected first and be "born again" at that time. Those that remain sinful, will go to judgment. But judgment has a purpose - to teach righteousness to those being judged. Once that is accomplished, judgment is ended. It does not last forever. Only a monster would punish someone forever and without a redeeming purpose. God will judge us all until the desired effect is accomplished in us. It is no different than why we correct a child. We correct them to teach them the right way to behave. God certainly knows how to correct mankind in order to teach us His righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Even the Pharisees that crucified Christ will be drawn to Christ and saved at the end of the final age.

Matt 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Those Pharisees died in their sins but Christ didn't threaten them with everlasting torment in hell because that is not what is going to happen to them. It was never an issue as to "if" they are going to be saved but only "when". Scripture says that Israel (that includes the Pharisees) will be last to be saved. The "fulness" (meaning everyone) of the Gentiles will be brought into the Kingdom before the nation of Israel. The first will be last and the last will be first. The nation of Israel was first to be offered salvation but because they rejected Christ, they will now be last. Salvation is certain for all mankind, but there is an "order" to that salvation (1Cor 15:20-28).

Your doctrines all seem to ignore the fact that Christ's love and mercy never end and that He is not willing at any should be lost. Death is not a problem for Christ even though that is what we ALL deserve. He will resurrect us ALL and He will not stop His work until He has changed us ALL. It is His work and not ours. No one is saved by their own "free will" decision to come to Christ. That is scripturally impossible. We are all born with a carnal mind and the carnal mind hates God. Until Christ acts within a person to change that hatred, the person will stay lost. That is why Paul said that no one should boast about their salvation. It is ALL the work of Christ. We must wait until Christ acts before we will be saved. And Christ is not going to rest until He has drawn all mankind to Himself.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joe

 

[Strat]

So once again somebody claims to know more about love,compassion,justice and fairness than God does,they say they have issues with the word of God...enter vain imaginations that exalt themselves above Go..... that create god man can accept and relate to.

 

[Templar81]

Yes, everyone dies physically and this is the result of a fallen world and sin but the true wages f sin is the second death.

John 6 shws us that we all die but those who believe and eat of the bread of life shall be raised up from the dead.

Now, this makes me think that those who do not believe and are not raised possibly just stay dead rather than being alive in Hell.

 

[tim_from_pa]

I'm really struggling with the idea of predestination for a select few that God ahs set aside to be spared the torments of eternal hell-fire.

Yeah, you will struggle with that understanding. Many are called, few are chosen. There's a select few now, called the church, that are called and saved now (first harvest in Pentecost). Like the Levites and Kings of Israel, their purpose is to rule and reign with Christ. There will be more saved during the Millennium (latter harvest Tabernacles). Then even after that, there is a resurrection of all who ever lived (The Last Great Day Great white Throne Judgment--- see John 7:37) to be given a chance at salvation --- not a second chance, but their first one, e.g. those who never heard the gospel of those who lived in a time and place long before Christ. That's even a grater number there.

So everyone will be given a chance. The Lord is not willing any should perish. If one perishes and becomes destroyed in the lake of fire, that's their own doing. However, each saved in their own order at the time God calls them.

 

[Templar81]

So, all those who are left outside the city walls of the New Jerualem will eventually get in so long as they accept Jesus. However, those who do perish in the Lake of fire are the oens who have obstinately chosen not to follow Christ and spurned his gift of grace.

However, I don not believe that people can send themselves to Hell. They can make the wrong chocie, yes but it is God who sits in judgement and pronounces the sentance. Sayign that people send themselves to hell is like saying that criminals send themselves to prison but they don't because many criminals get away with their criems but God is truly just and doesn't allow this to happen in his final judgement.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Yeah, you will struggle with that understanding. Many are called, few are chosen. There's a select few now, called the church, that are called and saved now (first harvest in Pentecost). Like the Levites and Kings of Israel, their purpose is to rule and reign with Christ. There will be more saved during the Millennium (latter harvest Tabernacles). Then even after that, there is a resurrection of all who ever lived (The Last Great Day Great white Throne Judgment--- see John 7:37) to be given a chance at salvation --- not a second chance, but their first one, e.g. those who never heard the gospel of those who lived in a time and place long before Christ. That's even a grater number there.

So everyone will be given a chance. The Lord is not willing any should perish. If one perishes and becomes destroyed in the lake of fire, that's their own doing. However, each saved in their own order at the time God calls them.

Dear Tim,

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Mankind does not merely have a "chance" of being saved but it is a certainty. Christ is the Savior and it is He who does the saving. He will cause all mankind to be changed into children of God. We are all born with a carnal mind that hates God. If God didn't draw us to Christ and give us of His faith and Spirit, no man would come to Him. WE CANNOT COME TO HIM FROM OUR SUPPOSED "FREE WILL". Our "will" is too carnal and too spiritually weak, plus we hate God in that carnal condition. But Christ will do all that is necessary to draw us to Himself. Do you not know that the gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance?

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If Christ was going to wait on us to repent and come to Him of our own accordance then no man would be saved. But He will give us the gifts of faith and of His Spirit that will draw us to Him to repent. Each and every person must wait on the Lord to act within our own lives. Scripture says that He will do all that is necessary to save us. By your doctrines, no man would ever be changed into a new man in Christ.

Christ is going to change me to be like Him and He will do all that is necessary for that do happen. He is even the cause of me "wanting" this to happen. When Christ finishes His work, no man will be lost.

Joe

 

[tim_from_pa]

Dear Tim,

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Mankind does not merely have a "chance" of being saved but it is a certainty. Christ is the Savior and it is He who does the saving. He will cause all mankind to be changed into children of God. We are all born with a carnal mind that hates God. If God didn't draw us to Christ and give us of His faith and Spirit, no man would come to Him. WE CANNOT COME TO HIM FROM OUR SUPPOSED "FREE WILL". Our "will" is too carnal and too spiritually weak, plus we hate God in that carnal condition. But Christ will do all that is necessary to draw us to Himself. Do you not know that the gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance?

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

If Christ was going to wait on us to repent and come to Him of our own accordance then no man would be saved. But He will give us the gifts of faith and of His Spirit that will draw us to Him to repent. Each and every person must wait on the Lord to act within our own lives. Scripture says that He will do all that is necessary to save us. By your doctrines, no man would ever be changed into a new man in Christ.

Christ is going to change me to be like Him and He will do all that is necessary for that do happen. He is even the cause of me "wanting" this to happen. When Christ finishes His work, no man will be lost.

Joe

From what I hear you say, Joe, I think we're on basically the same page. That was the point of my earlier mentioning when God calls each and every person, in their own time, i.e. when He does the calling. That's because no man can come save the Spirit draw him. Now that being said, there will be those incorrigibly wicked that will not repent, even when called, and refuse God. I think Jesus himself clearly said about perishing. Paul talks about sin and death. It is my belief that relatively few will ultimately end up this way, at least I hope that's the case because I want men saved, too.

 

[Brother James]

To me, the question turns on whether God granted man free will or not. If it is God that determines who will accept Christ and be saved, then there is no free will. It is as simple as that. If God decided you were not to accept Christ, then it is "tough luck buddy" for you. That seems counter to the nature of God as the Bible reveals Him to us. I believe that the genuine freedom of choice is one of the attributes of God that we share, being made "in His image". In imparting something of Himself in us, we receive freedom and with freedom comes the real possibility of acting in a way contrary to God’s will.

Predestination, as taught by the strict Calvinists, is difficult for me to reconcile with the rest of scripture, where we are admonished to take steps such as to repent, believe, abide, etc. These are all commands to exercise our volition. If we are not free to exercice volition, then nothing makes much sense to me.

Now, I do agree that God must call us, but I believe He calls everyone to salvation. Salvation is His work alone, and the faith to receive it comes from Him. But some can reject Him. So I guess it is the "irresistable grace" part that I have the most problem with.