Peter the Rock?

[Augustin56]

Your Catholic Church will never be my final authority. We are told to obey Christ, not your church.

If you obey Christ, you obey His Church! The Church declares why, verse Matt. 18:18, “for whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever she loses on earth is loosed in heaven.” The foundation, really, for all the extraordinary claims of the Catholic church, unique claims of the Catholic church, are rooted here. This is the disposition of God. God willed for us, Jesus, the God-man willed for us to have a visible church that has authority to speak for Him. That’s the sense in which we say the Church is Jesus Christ extended into the world, so radically so that Jesus could say in Matthew 10:40, Luke 10:16, “If they hear you, they hear Me. If they reject you, they reject Me. If they receive you, they receive Me. If they reject you, they reject Me.”

Again, read John 20:21, when Jesus is talking to the Apostles, the first hierarcy of His Church, it says, "Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” How did the Father send Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority, including the authority to teach, without error.

The following two passages are also telling.
21 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Here, in verse 21, Jesus (God) "breathed" on them. Only two times in all Scripture, does God "breathe" on man! Once in Genesis when He created Adam, and once here. Very important and telling! Then, in verse 22, Jesus gives the Apostles His Godly authority to forgive sins, from which we get the Sacrament of Confession.

All over the New Testament, Jesus is showing that 1) He is founding a Church to carry on after He ascends to heaven, 2) He is giving His authority to His Church to teach, preach, and sanctify, as well as confect the Sacraments He established. Why would anyone, coming 16 centuries later, think they know better?

 

[Marymog]

Why is this important, if -- as I think we can safely assume -- Jesus addressed Peter in Aramaic? Shouldn't we first be looking at whether Aramaic recognizes the same distinction you show in the Greek? Because if it doesn't, the author of Matthew has made an interpretive leap in quoting Jesus!

There was no "interpretive leap in quoting Jesus" RedFan.

Kephas is probably the original Aramaic form of Peter’s nickname. Kēphas means ‘rock.’

 

[Marymog]

That was not the point of discussion...and you adding your own interpretations to the scriptures puts you under a curse. But what did John the Catholic say--oh, right--he wasn't a Catholic, he was a Baptist! But what did he say?

Mark 1:8​

I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”​

​

And Paul?

Ephesians 4:4-6​

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.​

Scott,

I have learned you think very highly of yourself. Since you think very highly of yourself you will never admit to being wrong. I know that you have convinced yourself that you are being guided by a higher power into the truth. I have debunked that theory with you long ago so there is no need to do it again.

I have also learned in our discussions that you like to take snippets of Scripture that fit your narrative/belief/doctrine etc and not look at those snippets in context. I have learned that you don't care about context, you just care about being right and you believe the use of those snippets prove you right even though the context proves you wrong. I have proven that time and time again with you so there is no need to do it again.

With that truth said it is now time for Marymog to us the snippet Scott method: I, Marymog, have Psalm 46:5 on my side: God is within her, she will not fall. That passage means that God will NEVER allow me to fall. Since that snippet says "her", you are disqualified since you are a man. He will allow YOU to fall, not me. Also, Scripture tells me that the Spirit of truth will guide ME into all truth (John 16) so whenever you tell me something that you think is true, I will take what you tell me into consideration and let you know if you are right or not. Actually, it won't be me letting you know if you are right or not; it will be the Spirit working thru me to reveal the Truth to you.

Also Scott, I will preserve you if you do not forsake me. If you do forsake me, I will not preserve you (Proverbs 4). So PLEASE don't forsake me.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

If you obey Christ, you obey His Church! The Church declares why, verse Matt. 18:18, “for whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever she loses on earth is loosed in heaven.” The foundation, really, for all the extraordinary claims of the Catholic church, unique claims of the Catholic church, are rooted here. This is the disposition of God. God willed for us, Jesus, the God-man willed for us to have a visible church that has authority to speak for him. That’s the sense in which we say the Church is Jesus Christ extended into the world, so radically so that Jesus could say in Matthew 10:40, Luke 10:16, “If they hear you, they hear Me. If they reject you, they reject Me. If they receive you, they receive Me. If they reject you, they reject Me.”

Again, read John 20:21, when Jesus is talking to the Apostles, the first hierarcy of His Church, it says, "Jesus said to them again,l“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” How did the Father send Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority, including the authority to teach, without error.

The following two passages are also telling.
21 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Here, in verse 21, Jesus (God) "breathed" on them. Only two times in all Scripture, does God "breathe" on man! Once in Genesis when He created Adam, and once here. Very important and telling! Then, in verse 22, Jesus gives the Apostles His Godly authority to forgive sins, from which we get the Sacrament of Confession.

All over the New Testament, Jesus is showing that 1) He is founding a Church to carry on after He ascends to heaven, 2) He is giving His authority to His Church to teach, preach, and sanctify, as well as confect the Sacraments He established. Why would anyone, coming 16 centuries later, think they know better?

Very well-articulated Augustin. Thank you.

@Truthnightmare is clearly wrong in his/her opposition to a hierarchical Church. If he/she were to truly to obey Christ (like he/she says they are) then they would be in a Church. I'm not even saying The Catholic Church.....Just join ANY hierarchical church and then at least you are adhering (partially) to what Scripture teaches in this matter. If you aren't in a church, then you aren't even trying to adhere to Scripture.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

It doesn’t say both.. it clearly says Jesus is the rock…

you are Peter, and on this rock

Deny Jesus words all you want. It was written 2,000 years ago for you to read today and it will still be there 2,000 years from now for your ancestors to read.

 

[Marymog]

I don't know how two friends from different denominations settle matters of sin as between them (if that's your question). Personally, I have never tried to invoke Matthew 18:15 in resolving a matter of sin with a friend of another denomination than mine (Episcopalian). So I don't think I can add anything here.

I think the point that @BreadOfLife is making, and Scripture makes it clear, is that the sin between them can only be settled by going to THE Church, not A (any) church. THE Church, according to Scripture, is the pillar and foundation of truth. That means there can only be One Church.

Do you believe that the Episcopalian denomination is the "pillar and foundation of truth" that every Christian should go to settle our differences?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Dear Scott,

I am not concerned about your fantasy 'curse' or your twisted use of Scripture to intimidate me, for you see I have Psalm 46:5 on my side: God is within her, she will not fall;

Also, Scripture tells ME that, the Spirit of truth will guide ME into all truth (John 16).

So your fantasy that I will be cursed is just that; a fantasy. Clearly God will not allow it to happen since He will not allow me to fall. And Scott, when I tell you something you will KNOW it is the Truth since Scripture says that the Spirit will guide ME to all truth. Since the Spirit is guiding ME you better listen to ME.

Mary

Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”

To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

 

[ScottA]

Scott,

I have learned you think very highly of yourself. Since you think very highly of yourself you will never admit to being wrong. I know that you have convinced yourself that you are being guided by a higher power into the truth. I have debunked that theory with you long ago so there is no need to do it again.

I have also learned in our discussions that you like to take snippets of Scripture that fit your narrative/belief/doctrine etc and not look at those snippets in context. I have learned that you don't care about context, you just care about being right and you believe the use of those snippets prove you right even though the context proves you wrong. I have proven that time and time again with you so there is no need to do it again.

With that truth said it is now time for Marymog to us the snippet Scott method: I, Marymog, have Psalm 46:5 on my side: God is within her, she will not fall. That passage means that God will NEVER allow me to fall. Since that snippet says "her", you are disqualified since you are a man. He will allow YOU to fall, not me. Also, Scripture tells me that the Spirit of truth will guide ME into all truth (John 16) so whenever you tell me something that you think is true, I will take what you tell me into consideration and let you know if you are right or not. Actually, it won't be me letting you know if you are right or not; it will be the Spirit working thru me to reveal the Truth to you.

Also Scott, I will preserve you if you do not forsake me. If you do forsake me, I will not preserve you (Proverbs 4). So PLEASE don't forsake me.

Mary

Squirm, squirm. You have debunked nothing, nor could you.

 

[Wrangler]

Deny Jesus words all you want. It was written 2,000 years ago for you to read today and it will still be there 2,000 years from now for your ancestors to read.

No one is denying Jesus' words. We are denying your take that these words mean 'Peterian' is the better name for the religion. You might be a 'Peterian' but we are not.

Our rock is Christ.
Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ.

We tried to correct the error of your ways but know you are far too invested in this rationalization that your denomination has the exclusive power of salvation and not Jesus.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have excluded the Roman Catholic Church from the above list of churches of Christ, who are also in Christ.

So we are to assume that the Roman Catholic Church is neither of Christ, nor is it in Christ, since you do not include it in the churches of Christ.

First of all – “Roam” or “Latin” simply refers to one of about twenty Liturgical Rites that comprise the ONE Catholic Church. It’s not the “Roam” Catholic Church – just the Catholic Church.

Secondly – I haven’t “excluded” the Catholic Church from the above list. I have differentiated it from the list of Protestant sects.

The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered. – and continues to perpetually-splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of factions that all teach different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of their human founders.

 

[BreadOfLife]

God my Father, God the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ knows that I both believe Jesus and believe in Jesus, and do not reject Christ.

And only God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ knows whether my claim above is true or false.

And you are not God, you blasphemer.

Therefore you have once again exposed both yourself and the Roman Catholic Church to be guilty of blasphemy of the worst kind, claiming that the one who believes God must also believe in the Roman Catholic Church's "authority" (even in your authority to teach false doctrine and practice their idol-worship, etc) - though your organization is not God, since NONE OF YOU know who rejects Christ, and who does not, because only God knows.

This is proved by the fact that you are not God, you blasphemer, and are therefore completely unable to know whether or not I reject Christ, or whether or not Christ rejects me because I reject your church and it's false claim of authority.​

First of all – it’s not “blasphemy” to point out YOU lack of faith. Blasphemy refers to offenses against GOD – and YOU are NOT God.

As to YOUR rejections of Christ – I’m just judging your fruits – NOT your soul.

YOU stated the following:
“Also, any church that ever has, or that still does claim there is no salvation outside of their church, we see as a cult.”

This is a rejection of the fact that the Church IS Christ – hence a rejection of Christ.

In Acts 9, Saul meets Jesus on the Road to Damascus:
Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.

WHO was Saul persecuting? The CHURCH.
Jesus equates His very SELF with His Church.

 

[Marymog]

No one is denying Jesus' words. We are denying your take that these words mean 'Peterian' is the better name for the religion. You might be a 'Peterian' but we are not.

Our rock is Christ.
Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ.

We tried to correct the error of your ways but know you are far too invested in this rationalization that your denomination has the exclusive power of salvation and not Jesus.

Dear Wrangler,

I believe His words; you are Peter, and on this rock

I accept what He said, you and your ilk don't!

Since you are clearly in error there is nothing more to say.....

 

[Marymog]

Squirm, squirm. You have debunked nothing, nor could you.

You have been exposed and that is all you have to say?

 

[BreadOfLife]

And, you wrote all that to prove absolutely nothing.

The primitive church kept the 2nd commandment, the 4th commandment, the 8th commandment, etc., but the catholic church through her catechisms and various papal encyclicals DISREGARDS these commandments and teaches contrary to them, thereby DISQUALIFYING the catholic church as God's "remnant" church, seeing that a "remnant" of a thing IDENTICALLY MATCHES the thing that was there in the beginning.

Abandon the Whore of Babylon and join God's true remnant church "which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony and the faith of Jesus Christ." - Revelation 12:17 KJV; Revelation 14:12 KJV

Abandon Christ’s Church and join a bizarre cult with heterodox teachings that was hatched by a delusional woman in the 19th century??

Uhhhhh – NO thanks.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Clement's letter suggests that their bishop had been deposed, or at least that there was a movement afoot to do so. Look at Chapter 44. Indeed, that apparently was the purpose of the consultation request by some in the Corinthian congregation, which sparked Clement's letter.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see anywhere in the letter an indication that Clement was wielding any ultimate authority -- or any authority at all -- in his response. And I hesitate to infer that Clement had such ultimate authority simply from the apparent existence of a now-lost-to-us missive from Corinth about their bishop being deposed.

Again, with the very fact that the Corinthians appealed to the Bishop of Rome to intervene - you actually have to work at NOT seeing this.

We see the Authority of the Bishop of Rome less than 100 years later with the issue of the Quartodecimans. It was Pope Victor whop settled the matter for the Church towards the end of the 2nd century.

 

[Wrangler]

I believe His words; you are Peter, and on this rock

I accept what He said, you and your ilk don't!

Nope. Repeating your eisegesis error does not make it right.

You are taking ‘this’ to be a different rock than we are.

 

[Marymog]

Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”

To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

Proverbs 18:6

 

[Marymog]

Nope. Repeating your eisegesis error does not make it right.

You are taking ‘this’ to be a different rock than we are.

The eisegesis that Peter is the rock that Jesus built His Church on is ancient eisegesis. You and your ilk's eisegesis is around 500 years old. Yet your theory is that the 500-year-old eisegesis (Donald) trumps the 2,000-year-old eisegesis?

The name Cephas is an anglicized form of the Aramaic Kepha, which means simply “rock.” Yet your theory is that Peter is not rock.

In Koine Greek (the dialect of Greek used by the authors of the New Testament), petros and petra are masculine and feminine forms of words with the same root and the same definition: rock. There is no “small rock” to be found in the Greek text, either. Yet your theory is that Peter is not rock.

From vs 15-19 Jesus says YOU to Peter 8 times in His declaration that Peter is the rock. The context is clearly one of Jesus communicating a unique authority to Peter. In vs 20 Jesus changes the conversation from talking directly to Peter ABOUT Peter to talking to all the disciples that were present. Yet you allege that the 2,000-year eisegesis is in error even though both eisegesis and CONTEXT blows your theory out of the water.

You and your ilk want to change Scripture. I don't. I believe Him when he said, YOU are Peter, and on this rock!

Thank you for the debate. I enjoyed.

I think it should be noted that I gave multiple reasons that prove you are wrong. You gave me one reason that the 2,000-year eisegesis is wrong and that reason is the word "this" doesn't really mean what it means in that passage, it really means something else. Goodness gracious....

 

[Wrangler]

The eisegesis that Peter is the rock that Jesus built His Church on is ancient eisegesis.

Appeal to Authority. Older does not mean correct.

You are confusing Peterian eisegesis with proper exegesis from Scripture. John 3:16 does NOT read, God so loved the world that he gave Peter ...

 

[Marymog]

Appeal to Authority. Older does not mean correct.

You are confusing Peterian eisegesis with proper exegesis from Scripture. John 3:16 does NOT read, God so loved the world that he gave Peter ...

Appeal to WHO's authority? YOURS?

Yes, older DOES mean correct. 2 thess. 2:15

Proper eisegesis according to WHO? YOU??

Surely you realize how your argument has no merit?

Are you going to at least TRY and debunk anything I said in post #718?

Or are you just going to keep saying it's wrong and i know its wrong because i am right....