SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[Big Boy Johnson]

Let's not drive the act of someone "blocking" another, away from the context of the open discussion in this thread.

None the less...

Blocking someone is NOT a sin.... sometimes people are
full of BULLony and we don't need to be listening to their BULL
(see 1 Timothy 6:5)

""Christ is the end of the LAW, for everyone who believes" (born again).

Try telling the sabbatarians that!

 

[Earburner]

Yes.
Because if works were required then Salvation is not based on God's Grace.



Again, this would be God accepting us, not wholly based on the Cross of Christ.
And if that were the case then Salvation is not a "Gift".
And "Salvation IS a Gift". Its THE Gift of mercy and grace.



No.

You can't be saved by FAITH, and then it have works as a part of it.

Salvation is The Gift of Salvation, that is based on the Cross of Christ.

Once we have it, then we are to walk the walk...(discipleship)... we are to learn to allow God to live through us, His Life.

This is why Paul said..."i die Daily"., and that means,"I die to SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS and DO'ism, daily".. "I die to myself as my own savior, daily"..

Please read my prior posts against the schism that is being foisted in this thread on page #23.
You are missing what my emphasis is about, in item #3 of my post #460.

For all Christians who are Born Again, they have the very character (mind) of Christ Himself, which is the FRUIT (good works of His divine character) of the Holy Spirit, as shown in Gal. 5:22-23; 1 Cor. 2:16.
2 Peter
[3] According as his divine power hath GIVEN unto us all things that pertain unto LIFE and GODLINESS, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[4] Whereby are GIVEN unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be PARTAKERS of the DIVINE NATURE, HAVING ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust.

None of the FRUIT (good works of His divine character) of the Holy Spirit can be performed by us at all, but rather is performed by the Spirit of Christ Himself, WITHIN us and THROUGH us, who PERMANENTLY dwells within us.
Rom. 8:8-9; 1 John 5:11-13.

There is quite the difference between DOING the "good works" of Christ, and HAVING the "good works" of Christ.

 

[Behold]

For all Christians who are Born Again, they have the very character (mind) of Christ Himself,

Seldom do they have the "character" of Christ even after being saved 40 yrs.

However what all the born again have, is "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory".

Also, if all believers had the "mind of Christ" then there would be no Theology disputes.

Can you understand this?
It's not that hard to realize.
And if you need a clue, just notice all the ARGUING and FIGHTING, between "christians" on THIS FORM or any....... and then you'll realizing that your "everyone has the mind of Christ", is : proven nonsense.

 

[Earburner]

Seldom do they have the "character" of Christ even after being saved 40 yrs.

However what all the born again have, is "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory".

Also, if all believers had the "mind of Christ" then there would be no Theology disputes.

Can you understand this?
It's not that hard to realize.
And if you need a clue, just notice all the ARGUING and FIGHTING, between "christians" on THIS FORM or any....... and then you'll realizing that your "everyone has the mind of Christ", is : proven nonsense.

I understand it better than you think, even that of "church-ianity".

BEFORE Pentecost, "the Promise to come" was declared of the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit to come to all repentant believers:
Zech. 4
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might [internal human effort], nor by power [religious persuasion], but BY MY spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

 SINCE Pentecost, that Promise is still being fulfilled in EVERY repentant believer in Christ, who is "born again", being baptized by the Holy Spirit of God, whether baptized by water or not.

In all actuality, upon conversion, born again Christians are immediately and erroneously persuaded by "church-ianity" (the wisdom of men-1 Cor. 2:5) to perform and "DO good works" through their fleshly mind and bodies.

The "good works" of God are Gal. 5:32-23. But, in order for Him to DO His "good works" within us, on a daily basis we are to present ourselves to Him.

However, the problem for many born again Christians, is that they get side tracked by the "religious persuasion" of DOING their OWN "good works" through their flesh, never realizing that it is God Himself that wants to DO HIS OWN "good works" WITHIN us first- Gal. 5:22-23.
Unfortunately, the will of God for those who are newly converted to Christ, is never correctly presented to them by "church-ianity", of what the "good works" are, and who it is that is DOING the "good works" within them and through them.

As a result of them neglecting their daily "reasonable service", they bump along in their ups and downs, never learning or understanding how important Rom. 12:1 really is for their spiritual growth and well being in Christ.
Rom. 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies [to God, and not to the visible church] a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[Behold]

BEFORE Pentecost, "the Promise to come" was declared of the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit to come to all repentant believers:
Zech. 4

Oh.
so now you are posting a completely different subject.
got it.
thx.

 SINCE Pentecost, that Promise is still being fulfilled in EVERY repentant believer in Christ, who is "born again", being baptized by the Holy Spirit of God, whether baptized by water or not.

Yes, but that does not prove or suggest that all the born again have the CHARACTER of Jesus..... as you forgot you were falsely teaching, in the last post.

You can thank me later for reminding you., again.

In all actuality, upon conversion, born again Christians are immediately and erroneously persuaded by "church-ianity" (the wisdom of men-1 Cor. 2:5) to perform and "DO good works" through their fleshly mind and bodies.

Yet, they don't.

A.) = "go figure".

Here is what they do.

They BINGE on "Netflix"

"They worship John Calvin".

""they obsess on "trying to speak in tongues"

"the come to forums and teach, Yet they are clueless"..

However, the problem for many born again Christians, is that they get side tracked by the "religious persuasion" of DOING their OWN "good works" through their flesh, never realizing that it is God Himself that wants to DO HIS good works in us first- Gal. 5:22-23.

I dont have that issue.

See, i understand and teach that God saves us so that He can INDWELL us and live HIS LIFE through us, as OUR Discipleship.
'
A.) Welcome to REAL Christianity.

 

[Earburner]

Oh.
so now you are posting a completely different subject.
got it.
thx.




Yes, but that does not prove or suggest that all the born again have the CHARACTER of Jesus..... as you forgot you were falsely teaching, in the last post.

You can thank me later for reminding you., again.



Yet, they don't.

A.) = "go figure".

Here is what they do.

They BINGE on "Netflix"

"They worship John Calvin".

""they obsess on "trying to speak in tongues"

"the come to forums and teach, Yet they are clueless"..




I dont have that issue.

See, i understand and teach that God saves us so that He can INDWELL us and live HIS LIFE through us, as OUR Discipleship.
'
A.) Welcome to REAL Christianity.

What I am saying is beyond "the wisdom of men" in the halls of visible church-ianity
Stop over analyzing.

I am only focusing on one topic, and that is the fruit of God's Holy Spirit (His "good works" that He DOES within us), which is the Spirit of Christ, aka "the divine nature", as revealed in Gal. 5:22-23.

God can only work within us, to the level that we allow him (Rom. 12:1). The carnal mind of our flesh is always full of sin, which is why we are to daily live/walk in His Spirit/Mind, because ALL Born Again Christians DO HAVE the Mind/Spirit of Christ, right "alongside" their OWN fleshly mind. Rom. 8:8-9.
Edit:
Now you can know why and how "the Spirit lusteh to envy". James 4:5
[5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
[6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

[7] Submit yourselves therefore to God**. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
[8] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
**Did you notice that the Holy Spirit through James says the same thing as Paul (Rom. 12:1), but in a different way?

....and most assuredly, we all are not at the same level with our "walk in the Spirit".

 

[Earburner]

I dont have that issue.

See, i understand and teach that God saves us so that He can INDWELL us and live HIS LIFE through us, as OUR Discipleship.
'
A.) Welcome to REAL Christianity.

That is the understanding of "church-ianity".

Our discipleship is based on the good works of God's Character, aka the fruit of His Holy Spirit within us, not on how many I CAN preach the gospel to, what level of financial gifts I CAN give to the church, or how many of the poor and the hungry that I CAN feed.

Don't you see? Its all about God, who is DOING His OWN "Good works" in us and through us on a daily basis. He knows how to lead me to someone's need, or bring to me THOSE who HE KNOWS that are IN NEED.

 

[Behold]

What I am saying is beyond "the wisdom of men" in the halls of visible church-ianity

Which explains why you don't understand it.

I am only focusing on one topic, and that is the fruit of God's Holy Spirit (His "good works" that He DOES within us),

Lets not talk about your losing focus.
Lets instead return to your erroneous previous statement that stated that all Christians have Christ's Character..

That is in fact, nonsense.

 

[Earburner]

Which explains why you don't understand it.



Lets not talk about your losing focus.
Lets instead return to your erroneous previous statement that stated that all Christians have Christ's Character..

That is in fact, nonsense.

I said: ALL Born Again Christians HAVE Christ's Character.
Stop rushing to judgment in what you think I say, and you too will understand that the fruit of the Holy Spirit ARE the works of God that HE IS DOING within us and THROUGH us.
Our OWN works, no matter how noble in appearance, is "a form of godliness, but denies the Power thereof", aka self righteousness.

Edit:
Heb. 12:1-29
[10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be  PARTAKERS of  HIS holiness. (2 Peter 1:4).
[14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which [having], no man shall see [perceive] the Lord [within us]:
Mat. 23
[39] For I say unto you, Ye shall not see [perceive] me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

​

 

[Titus]

'For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of GOD, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.' (Ephesians2:8&9)

Hello Fred J

Sir I know you reject what I teach because you are a calvinist.
Your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9 is reformed theological error.

For by grace you have been saved
All salvation is not based on merit but on mercy and Grace aka unmerited favor.


through faith
This is where you go wrong. You claim God is working faith in us and we have zero ability on our own to have faith because of Total depravity aka Total inability.
According to your religion Faith is not mans part but God miraculously working faith in us.
If this is true then all those that God does not miraculously work faith in are going to hell.
Your religion makes God guilty for every man who goes to hell because they were not given faith directly from the Holy Spirit in a miraculous direct operation of God.
If I have zero ability to have faith then I cannot be held responsible for not believing!!!

True Biblical teaching is that faith comes from reading, preaching, teaching, hearing the word of God.
This proves unregenerate can understand and believe simply by hearing the gospel presented to them.
Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
No miraclous work from the Holy Spirit in order to have the ability to believe according to Paul.
Paul says we simply need to hear the word of God and by the word we get faith in God.

Your religion denies Romans 10:17 by claiming no man can believe from just hearing the gospel, he must be miraculously worked on first by the HS then he will believe.
Not according to Paul!!!

and this is not your own doing
Paul does not mean you cannot have faith by your own understanding.
Paul is saying salvation is not of your own doing!!! Meaning it does not come by meriting or earning it.
Paul already explained salvation comes by Grace through faith and not of your own doing i.e. merit.

it is the gift of God
See? " it is not of your own doing it is the gift of God"
Paul is speaking of salvation is not of your own doing but a gift from God not faith is impossible by your own ability as you wrongly teach.

Romans 6:23,
- for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

not a result of works

The gift of God i.e. salvation is not by merit but by Grace is Paul's point.

so that no one may boast

Paul's point is if someone could earn their salvation through works they would boast.
This has nothing to do with how they obtained faith.

The Ephesians were saved in Acts 19:1-7
These 12 men did not even know about the Holy Spirit when the first believed in Jesus!!
This proves the Holy Spirit did not need to work a miracle on them so they could believe.
All they needed was Paul to preach to the the full gospel of Christ and then on their own the had faith in Paul's teaching, Romans 10:17.
Acts19: 1-7,
- Paul having passed through the upper regions of Ephesus and finding certain disciples
he said to them, have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you  believed
and they said unto him, we have not as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit

Here they have faith but have not even received the Holy Spirit!!!!! This goes directly against CALVINISM

Now listen to Paul water baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ and AFTER they have been saved they then recieve the Holy Spirit by Paul's hands. NOT WHAT CALVINIST TEACH!!!!

Acts 19:4-7,
- when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
and when Paul laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spake in tongues and prophesied

Why is it they believed the gospel taught by Paul but never got the Holy Spirit until AFTER they were saved?
This proves your theology false because according to you they were totally unable to believe without the HS first performing a miracle on them to have the ability to believe the gospel.
The Bible dis-proves calvinism.

Romans 10:17,
- Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

 

[Soyeong]

Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

The faith only to obtain salvation gospel advocates teach a false gospel of saving faith apart from works.
Likewise faith onlyist teach if works are involved then salvation cannot be by Grace for grace is a free gift.
This is a logical fallacy!

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Must meet Gods terms to receive His gift of unmerited grace,
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

Grace teaches us we must do good works. Paul taught Titus that grace and works go together. They harmonize!
You will hear the faith onlyist use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" we are saved without any involvement of works.

First, if salvation is apart from ALL works then we are saved without the work Christ did on the cross,
John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me

Second Paul does teach in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works.
But what must be understood is the gospel teaches there are different kinds of works.
To lump ALL works into meritorious works like for instance the commandment to be baptized, turns Jesus' gospel
in Mark 16:15-16 into a gospel that teaches we earn our salvation through a work of baptism.

The kind of works Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:8-9 is works of merit.
Paul also teaches that saving faith is a faith that works,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love
1Corinthians 7:19,
- circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

When one believes in His gospel 1Corinthians 15:1-4
And obeys the commandments in His gospel,
Can one qualify to receive His unmerited favor.
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus' gospel is by grace through faith when faith is rightly defined.
It is a working/obedient faith that justifies the alien sinner,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone

This faith is the only faith that is acceptable unto God,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him

God made it very clear that anyone who teaches no obedience/works to God to be saved is not a servant of of God but of the devil, Gen. 3:3-4.
1John 2:2-5,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but also for the whole world, now by this we know we know Him  if we keep His commandments, he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

Last we get INTO Christ by baptism,
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

No spiritual blessings outside of Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Savior who has blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing  in the heavenly places IN Christ

If not why not?

Indeed, grace is a gift and gifts are incompatible with works done to earn a result (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many other verses that connect grace with works. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of our salvation from not doing good works.

 

[Titus]

Indeed, grace is a gift and gifts are incompatible with works done to earn a result (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many other verses that connect grace with works. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of our salvation from not doing good works.

Thankyou,
If good works were incompatible with Grace then no born again christian could do any good works to be saved or after one is saved in their daily walk to remain faithful to God.
What's really incompatible with Christs teaching is to claim one cannot do good works and recieve Gods grace simultaneously.

 

[Fred J]

Hello Fred J

Sir I know you reject what I teach because you are a calvinist.
Your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9 is reformed theological error.

For by grace you have been saved
All salvation is not based on merit but on mercy and Grace aka unmerited favor.


through faith
This is where you go wrong. You claim God is working faith in us and we have zero ability on our own to have faith because of Total depravity aka Total inability.

Paul says we simply need to hear the word of God and by the word we get faith in God.

Your denomination change the theology for you kind itching ears listeners apparently.

'As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.'

For it is written, 'For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of GOD, .......'

Which part did you miss??


And this is not your own doing, and you are claiming faith came from within you hearing the word of GOD??

Therefore, when Peter answered the Lord, He is Christ, Son of the living GOD, so in faith to give a correct answer suddenly arose by his own doing??

'Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of GOD.'

'HE hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their hearts; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.'

You want to change your 'twisted gospel version' or be 'accursed'??

 

[Titus]

Hi Fred J, thanks for responding.
It is very typical of calvinist's like yourself to abandon your own calvinist doctrine when it doesn't help your position.

But nine times out of ten calvinist's are totally oblivious that they do not practise what they preach.
Case in point...

You want to change your 'twisted gospel version' or be 'accursed'?

Fred!!!! You just left calvinism!!!

Let's do a refresher on fundamentals of calvinist theology aka reformed theology.
Fred J, you abandoned the first doctrine of TULIP

T, Total depravity or Total inability

Listen you accuse me of being a reprobate a lost sinner.
That makes me still dead in my sins unregenerated!!

That means I'm still Totally depraved.

Fred J in your theology I could never obey what you told me,

You want to change your 'twisted gospel version'

To change my beliefs to the supposed "truth" . IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE TOTALLY DEPRAVED REPROBATE!!!!

Come on Fred J, you know God must first send the Holy Spirit to regenerate me by giving me a new heart. Only then can I change my "twisted gospel " to the calvinist theology you so strongly believe in.

Why did you tell me to change when your religion does not ALLOW ME THE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE WHAT I BELIEVE SPIRITUALLY?

In your religion if God has not chosen me as one of the elect before I was born.
Then it is a waste of your time to tell me to change!!!

And here is were you really went against your religious beliefs Fred J,

If God has created me for reprobation to burn me in hell, then you telling me to do good is GOING AGAINST YOUR GODS DESIRES FOR MY DESTINY!!!!

Sir, get your own religious doctrines straightened out before you try and tell me I'm wrong.

You calvinist are never consistent with your doctrines.

Telling a totally depraved man with no ability to choose to believe and do the truth is such a contradiction.

Last, Fred J, you totally ignored Acts 19 where the believers did not get the HS until after they were saved. That's not calvinistic doctrine. Hint: that's because your theology is not Biblical.

 

[Fred J]

Hi Fred J, thanks for responding.
It is very typical of calvinist's like yourself to abandon your own calvinist doctrine when it doesn't help your position.

But nine times out of ten calvinist's are totally oblivious that they do not practise what they preach.
Case in point...

Fred!!!! You just left calvinism!!!

Let's do a refresher on fundamentals of calvinist theology aka reformed theology.
Fred J, you abandoned the first doctrine of TULIP

T, Total depravity or Total inability

Listen you accuse me of being a reprobate a lost sinner.
That makes me still dead in my sins unregenerated!!

That means I'm still Totally depraved.

Fred J in your theology I could never obey what you told me,


To change my beliefs to the supposed "truth" . IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE TOTALLY DEPRAVED REPROBATE!!!!

Come on Fred J, you know God must first send the Holy Spirit to regenerate me by giving me a new heart. Only then can I change my "twisted gospel " to the calvinist theology you so strongly believe in.

Why did you tell me to change when your religion does not ALLOW ME THE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE WHAT I BELIEVE SPIRITUALLY?

In your religion if God has not chosen me as one of the elect before I was born.
Then it is a waste of your time to tell me to change!!!

And here is were you really went against your religious beliefs Fred J,

If God has created me for reprobation to burn me in hell, then you telling me to do good is GOING AGAINST YOUR GODS DESIRES FOR MY DESTINY!!!!

Sir, get your own religious doctrines straightened out before you try and tell me I'm wrong.

You calvinist are never consistent with your doctrines.

Telling a totally depraved man with no ability to choose to believe and do the truth is such a contradiction.

Last, Fred J, you totally ignored Acts 19 where the believers did not get the HS until after they were saved. That's not calvinistic doctrine. Hint: that's because your theology is not Biblical.

Stop flattering yourself and stop being a silly false prophet, prophesying am a calvanist? Apparently, either the devil or your flesh put you up to this gibberish nonsense.

Am not attached to any denomination, but only the church of Christ of 'Sola Scriptural'. Where, need only two or three gathered in His name, He is in our midst.

 

[Fred J]

Last, Fred J, you totally ignored Acts 19 where the believers did not get the HS until after they were saved.

The same i ask you, did Peter who is saved, already receive the Holy Spirit when he answered Jesus correctly??

Didn't Jesus say, until He returns to the FATHER, the Comforter and Helper cannot come, nor the FATHER send??

Didn't after His ascension, the Holy Spirit descend on the day of Pentecost??

Don't give up your day job in order to join the circus with bunch of clowns.

Thank you and over!

 

[Johann]

Acts 19 where the believers did not get the HS

I—PETER’S MESSAGE—ACTS 2
“Dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven.” The day of Pentecost—one of Jehovah’s or Israel’s feasts, fifty days after Firstfruits. Leviticus 23:15. These Jews, together with the proselytes (Acts 2:10), were all amazed because they had heard and witnessed God’s supernatural visitation. The Apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit, began to speak with other tongues. The Holy Spirit had come in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. Christ had been raised from the dead, in fulfillment of David’s prophecy, to occupy David’s throne. God had made the same Jesus, whom these Jews with wicked hands had crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36. Peter’s message was addressed “Ye men of Judea;” “Ye men of Israel.” Acts 2:14 and 2:22. The convicted Israelites said unto Peter, “What shall we do?” Then Peter said unto them

“REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.”

Note the results. Three thousand Israelites and proselytes (all considered Jews) were added. Acts 2:41. They sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men, as every man had need. At that time they had favor with all the people. “The Lord added daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:43 to 47. Some Israelites had been saved while Christ was on earth. Luke 10:20. They had been called “the little flock” and instructed to sell their property and give alms. Luke 12:32 and 33. The Apostles had received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. John 20:22. It is not definitely stated in the Scriptures whether or not the Church of God began on the day of Pentecost. The Greek word for “church” is “ekklesia,” literally the “called out”. Some Israelites were certainly called out while Christ was on earth. But the Church of God was to be purchased with His own blood and Christ had to go to the Father before He could send: the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit in early Acts was to witness to Israel concerning Christ as Israel’s Prince and Saviour. Acts 5:32.

In the first nine chapters of Acts it was not lawful for the apostles to go to the Gentiles with the Word of God. Acts 10:28. So they preached to none but Jews only. Acts 11:19. Peter did not preach the unsearchable, or untraceable, riches of Christ to the Israelites, if indeed anyone did. But God wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision. Galatians 2:7 to 9. Peter preached to Israel none other things than Moses and the prophets said should come. Joel—David—Moses—Samuel—all the prophets—Amos. Acts 2:16; Acts 2:25 to 33; Acts 3:21 to 26; Acts 10:43; Acts 15:14.

 

[Titus]

And this is not your own doing, and you are claiming faith came from within you hearing the word of GOD??

Therefore, when Peter answered the Lord, He is Christ, Son of the living GOD, so in faith to give a correct answer suddenly arose by his own doing??

You are teaching reformed theology Fred J, whether you know it or not.
Many dont know where their theology comes from Fred J.

Yes Fred J faith does come from within our ability to reason as God gave this ability to all.

Paul said so, Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

This is the problem with you Fred J. You don't believe Paul when he said our faith comes from hearing the word of God.

You have the calvinist belief that we cannot believe unless
God sends the Holy Spirit directly to us to give us a "new heart".

But it's also possible you dont really know what you believe because you are ignorant of where your beliefs came from.

 

[Titus]

I—PETER’S MESSAGE—ACTS 2
“Dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men out of every nation under heaven.” The day of Pentecost—one of Jehovah’s or Israel’s feasts, fifty days after Firstfruits. Leviticus 23:15. These Jews, together with the proselytes (Acts 2:10), were all amazed because they had heard and witnessed God’s supernatural visitation. The Apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit, began to speak with other tongues. The Holy Spirit had come in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. Christ had been raised from the dead, in fulfillment of David’s prophecy, to occupy David’s throne. God had made the same Jesus, whom these Jews with wicked hands had crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36. Peter’s message was addressed “Ye men of Judea;” “Ye men of Israel.” Acts 2:14 and 2:22. The convicted Israelites said unto Peter, “What shall we do?” Then Peter said unto them

“REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.”

Note the results. Three thousand Israelites and proselytes (all considered Jews) were added. Acts 2:41. They sold their possessions and goods and parted them to all men, as every man had need. At that time they had favor with all the people. “The Lord added daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:43 to 47. Some Israelites had been saved while Christ was on earth. Luke 10:20. They had been called “the little flock” and instructed to sell their property and give alms. Luke 12:32 and 33. The Apostles had received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. John 20:22. It is not definitely stated in the Scriptures whether or not the Church of God began on the day of Pentecost. The Greek word for “church” is “ekklesia,” literally the “called out”. Some Israelites were certainly called out while Christ was on earth. But the Church of God was to be purchased with His own blood and Christ had to go to the Father before He could send: the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit in early Acts was to witness to Israel concerning Christ as Israel’s Prince and Saviour. Acts 5:32.

In the first nine chapters of Acts it was not lawful for the apostles to go to the Gentiles with the Word of God. Acts 10:28. So they preached to none but Jews only. Acts 11:19. Peter did not preach the unsearchable, or untraceable, riches of Christ to the Israelites, if indeed anyone did. But God wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision. Galatians 2:7 to 9. Peter preached to Israel none other things than Moses and the prophets said should come. Joel—David—Moses—Samuel—all the prophets—Amos. Acts 2:16; Acts 2:25 to 33; Acts 3:21 to 26; Acts 10:43; Acts 15:14.

Hello Johann!!!

Help me out, are you disagreeing with my belief that the Ephesians in Acts 19 did not receive the
Holy Spirit until after they were saved?

Also I read the entire post you sent me, post 497.
Some of what you posted I agree with but other beliefs like,

It is not definitely stated in the Scriptures whether or not the Church of God began on the day of Pentecos

It is directly stated when and where the church began! It began on the first pentecost after Jesus' ressurection.

If you disagree with my belief that the Ephesians in Acts 19 only received Holy Spirit until after they were saved, then please let's discuss this one subject.

Id rather not discuss multiple subjects at once. Teaching is simplified therefore made easier for all to understand when only one issue is dealt with.

Once Acts 19 is discussed, then I'd be happy to move on to other subjects that you may be interested in.

Love you friend

 

[Titus]

The same i ask you, did Peter who is saved, already receive the Holy Spirit when he answered Jesus correctly?

Your question is to vague. Give scripture for your questions.

I don't believe you could answer this question.

You taught me the lost unregenerate alien sinner cannot have faith by hearing the gospel.
You taught me faith must be given directly through the Holy Spirit operating on the individual.

Peter you said is already saved. Does he need supernatural guidance to give the correct answer?
That depends on how much information Jesus has revealed to him.

In the new testament era that we live in. All can come to the knowledge that Jesus is Lord and Savior only through the revelation of the word, the Bible.
1Corinthians 4:15,
- for though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel