Lambano
Well-Known Member
After reading even a few threads, I wouldn't say "have been", past tense. Maybe "being transformed", work in progress.We have been transformed into the image of Christ and are therefore no longer evil.
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After reading even a few threads, I wouldn't say "have been", past tense. Maybe "being transformed", work in progress.We have been transformed into the image of Christ and are therefore no longer evil.
Thank you kindly for you reply.Welcome to the forum and thanks for joining this topic.
I'm interested in your comment asking: "Or did he create you to love him by loving your neighbor?"
That's a curious connection. Sort of a bottom-upward view.
The key scripture had us loving our neighbor as ourselves. And loving God...
"... with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind..."
In the opening post (OP) I was taken with the simplicity of the "love your neighbor" aspect,
compared with complexity (and totality) of the love your God aspect.
/
Rabbi Abraham Heschel in his book God in Search of Man says that the Hebrew word יִרְאָה ("yirah") used in that proverb carries shades of meaning which include wonder, awe, reverence, and yes, real fear, fear as when one is confronted by an entity infinitely greater than oneself.That is why we need to ask help re in the Love department. there are a lot of verses "fear of the Lord" exact quote.
The high calling is to become selfless as God is selfless...denying oneself. For us this means being stripped of self in order to be clothed with His life and power.Thinking about the Greatest Commandment question posed to Jesus and the two great commands of Christ in response.
All three synoptic gospels render the (mis)quote from Deuteronomy differently. Which raises its own set of questions.
Anyone that has worked through that, please weigh in to explain. Thanks. All five scriptures are quoted at the bottom of this post.
In Luke 10:27 we read:
1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind;
2) and, Love your neighbor as yourself.
- So, we are to love God more than we love ourselves?
- We are only to love our neighbor as ourselves.
- Do we love ourselves with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind?
- Do we love our neighbors with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind?
We are also taught to love the unlovable. (like our neighbor?)
- Is God lovable?
- Has the church created a caricature of God that is unlovable? (I would say, "Yes.")
- How can we love a God like that with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deuteronomy 6:5 NIV
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18 NIV
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people,
but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
/
- Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
- Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
- Luke 10:27
He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength
and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
No, I think God's assumption in that verse is that we already DO love ourselves. And who would know us better? Even though sometimes we're not "fond of our own company", we still are looking out for numero uno. We make sure that our own basic needs are met, and we do the things that we think will make us happy and give ourselves stuff that we think will make us happy. It's all about me, Me, ME and my wants and needs. We're all self-centered as hell.It all begins with loving yourself. We can't love in the other areas without that first.
The whole thing is puzzling. Which is the reason for this topic. Trying to sort it out.Question: do the three stated characteristics of Love Your Neighbor broadly capture the intent, or is something missing, or is there too much? (Too much Book of James and not enough John’s Gospel?)
Agree.No, I think God's assumption in that verse is that we already DO love ourselves. And who would know us better? Even though sometimes we're not "fond of our own company", we still are looking out for numero uno. We make sure that our own basic needs are met, and we do the things that we think will make us happy and give ourselves stuff that we think will make us happy. It's all about me, Me, ME and my wants and needs. We're all self-centered as hell.
Bingo, and I don't think we need to be teaching each other to love ourselves more. We already do that. The call is to DENY ourselves and love outward and upward.The self hatred thing seems to be an observation of modern psychology,
That's interesting. Thanks.The high calling is to become selfless as God is selfless...denying oneself. For us this means being stripped of self in order to be clothed with His life and power.
Usually defined as reverential trust rather than fear as something to be afraid of.That is why we need to ask help re in the Love department. there are a lot of verses "fear of the Lord" exact quote.
Part of the command to love our neighbors as ourselves, so part of that is the command to love ourselves. The way to view what our parents created as having no value is by not honoring them while the way to view what our creators created as having great value is by honoring them, so by honoring our creators we are honoring ourselves, which means that the 5th Commandment is essentially the command to love ourselves as we love our creators. Likewise, that is parallel to the 10th Commandment, where by coveting others we placing no value on ourselves by wishing that we were someone else, so it is essentially the command to love ourselves as we love our neighbors. God said that man was good before man had done anything, so our value is not based on what we have done, but based upon that we were created created in God's image, so the love that we should have for ourselves should take up an appropriate amount of space where we do not love ourselves more or less than others who were created in God's image.Thinking about the Greatest Commandment question posed to Jesus and the two great commands of Christ in response.
All three synoptic gospels render the (mis)quote from Deuteronomy differently. Which raises its own set of questions.
Anyone that has worked through that, please weigh in to explain. Thanks. All five scriptures are quoted at the bottom of this post.
In Luke 10:27 we read:
1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind;
2) and, Love your neighbor as yourself.
- So, we are to love God more than we love ourselves?
- We are only to love our neighbor as ourselves.
- Do we love ourselves with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind?
- Do we love our neighbors with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind?
We are also taught to love the unlovable. (like our neighbor?)
- Is God lovable?
- Has the church created a caricature of God that is unlovable? (I would say, "Yes.")
- How can we love a God like that with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deuteronomy 6:5 NIV
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18 NIV
“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people,
but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
/
- Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
- Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
- Luke 10:27
He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength
and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
The Hebrew word "pachad" refers to the type of fear that causes us to want to run away and hide while the word "yireh" refers to the type of fear that causes us to see and run towards someone. In other words, there is the type of fear where we don't want to be close to someone and the type of fear where we don't want to be separated from someone and the type of fear that is the beginning of wisdom is the later, so it is rooted in love.Proverbs 1:7The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
A god made in their image...That's interesting. Thanks.
I hadn't thought of God in those terms before. Selfless.
Probably because the caricature of God the church has given us seems more self-absorbed,
Hell bent for revenge, completely intolerant, hateful, angry, short-tempered...
/
Yet another interesting reversal of thought on this topic. Thanks.so it is essentially he command to love ourselves as we love our neighbors.
He was quoting the Septuagint and everyone but you seems to know it. Five minutes with Google can confirm it for anyone who cares enough to spend even that much time on the issue.No, the Septuagint version has "kardias" (heart), "psuches" (soul), and "dunameus" (power), closely followng the Hebrew. (Other than substituting "Kurios" for The Name, of course.)
6:5 καὶ ἀγαπήσεις κύριον τὸν θεόν σου ἐξ ὅλης τῆς καρδίας σου καὶ ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ψυχῆς σου καὶ ἐξ ὅλης τῆς δυνάμεώς σου
He did so all the time. Based on the biblical record, the Septuagint was His favorite version of the bible to quote from.Besides, why would Jesus speak in Greek when addressing a Jewish audience in Israel?
I don't know that it is clear that Jesus spoke to the Hebrew people in Greek. We know that He read from the scrolls which we not in Greek. We might be amazed at the things in the library under the control of the Vatican.He was quoting the Septuagint and everyone but you seems to know it. Five minutes with Google can confirm it for anyone who cares enough to spend even that much time on the issue.
He did so all the time. Based on the biblical record, the Septuagint was His favorite version of the bible to quote from.
That's a very interesting point. The Septuagint (Greek OT) dates to the 3rd century BC.I don't know that it is clear that Jesus spoke to the Hebrew people in Greek. We know that He read from the scrolls which we not in Greek.
I did cut-and-paste the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 6:5, and I highlighted the points (in English) where the Matthew, Mark, and Luke accounts depart from the LXX. I suppose if I had been more rigorous, I would have cut-and-pasted the Greek versions of Matthew, Mark and Luke and highlighted in red where "mind" is added and "power" is redacted. I will leave that as an exercise for the student.He was quoting the Septuagint and everyone but you seems to know it. Five minutes with Google can confirm it for anyone who cares enough to spend even that much time on the issue.