Commanded to love God more than we love ourselves?
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Logikos
Member
One thing about the internet - if you want to find someone who will contradict even the most widely know facts about any topic whatsoever, you can find them.I don't know that it is clear that Jesus spoke to the Hebrew people in Greek. We know that He read from the scrolls which we not in Greek. We might be amazed at the things in the library under the control of the Vatican.
"But, while the New Testament authors quoted the LXX frequently, it does not necessarily follow that Christ did. We know for certain that Jesus quoted the Hebrew Old Testament at times, since he read from the scrolls in the synagogue. But Jesus could have only quoted from the Hebrew, and the New Testament authors later used the Greek translation to record the fact."
In Which Passages Does Jesus Quote the Septuagint, and Where Does the New Testament Allude to the Septuagint?
Some Protestants challenge Catholics to show where Jesus quotes the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Click here to learn more.www.catholic.com
Jesus was, without any doubt whatsoever, quoting from the Septuagint - period. That's the plain fact of the matter. Believe it not, I don't care.
Logikos
Member
ANY Calvinist would say that He is both and if someone rose a stink about the contradiction, he'd redefine one or both terms to make them synonymous.
There are many theologians, those who know Koine Greek, ancient Hebrew, and even Aramaic, who disagree with you. I choose to disagree with you, too. Have a blessed day.
Yes, and it appears that there are numerous groups who have had some success with that.
In post #38 I provided a link to a list of Bible quotes from the Septuagint.
SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic
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Yes, I saw that; thank you. However, unless sleeping last night brought me memory loss, was not the question of whether or not Jesus used the Septuagint? I see no evidence that He spoke Greek to anyone.
Doesn't it follow that if Jesus was quoting the Septuagint (which was written in Greek) that he was speaking Greek?
Here are a few examples from the link provided comparing the Septuagint Greek quotes and the Hebrew equivalents.
Matt. 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 – I desire “mercy” and not sacrifice. Hebrew – I desire “goodness” and not sacrifice.
Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7 / Isaiah 29:13 – teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Hebrew – a commandment of men (not doctrines).
Matt. 21:16 / Psalm 8:2 – out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has “perfect praise.” Hebrew – thou has “established strength.”
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Scriptures from examples above.
Matt. 9:13 NIV
But go and learn what this means:
‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a]
For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Matt. 12:7 NIV
If you had known what these words mean,
‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a]
you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt. 15:9 NIV
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]”
Mark 7:7 NIV
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[a]
Matt. 21:16 NIV
“Do you hear what these children are saying?” they asked him.
“Yes,” replied Jesus, “have you never read,
“‘From the lips of children and infants
you, Lord, have called forth your praise’[a]?”
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Logikos
Member
Argument from silence.
Even if your claim were so, you'd also have no evidence that He didn't speak Greek to some.
The fact is, however, that we do know that Jesus quoted the Septuagint - which is written in Greek!
That's sounds like evidence that He spoke Greek to me.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
In my job, I have conference calls with Japan, China, Korea, Canada, Israel, Brazil, and sometimes California. Sometimes all at the same time. Thanks to the lingering historical effects of British expansionism in the 18th-20th centuries, our business is always conducted in English. Though looking at the current flow of history, I may need to learn Mandarin before too long. And I do recall having to translate North Carolinian to standard English for the benefit of a Taiwanese vendor.
Greek was the international business language in NT times. Paul Epistles were targeted to a Greek-speaking audience (why not Latin for Romans?), as was 1 Peter (says so in v1:1) and James. The whole New Testament is pretty much targeted to the Greek-speaking world outside of Israel.
I'm going to risk public ridicule by mentioning Textual Criticism. The current theory is that Mark was first and written in Greek, Matthew was compiled in Greek using Mark as a source, an Aramaic or Hebrew source traditionally attributed to Jesus's favorite tax collector (see Papias), and a third source unique to Matthew such as the birth narrative. Luke did his own research and used Mark, Matthew's Aramaic source (not the pre-translated version), and his own unique sources (including Mary herself?) for the birth narrative and other Luke-specific things to put together his own "orderly account" (v1:3). And John did his own thing much later. Inspiration might not work the way we think it ought to work.
The theory is that Jesus would have quoted the Hebrew scriptures in Hebrew to his Aramaic-speaking audience. The translators sometimes got lazy and just copied the LXX. The Shema quotes used in the OP are interesting because they show that in this case the translators were NOT lazy and tried to meticulously translate the original Hebrew or Aramaic into Greek. And in this case, Mark, Matthew, and Luke came up with somewhat differing translations, which lends a note of authenticity to the whole thing.
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It is interesting (I think!) that one of the ECF reports seeing Matthew written in Hebrew or Aramaic. I do have doubts about Galilean fishermen speaking Greek.
Wow.
Did you really write that?
Am I missing something here?
The Septuagint is WRITTEN is Greek.
To quote the Septuagint is to quote it in Greek.
The use of Greek was obvious EVEN in the English translation
where the word choice DIFFERENCES indicate whether he
was quoting the Hebrew OT or the Greek Septuagint.
Unless Jesus back-translated the Septuagint Greek to Hebrew.
But what would the point of that be?
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Was Peter unable to read his OWN epistle?
Did he even write it?
Greek was the common trade language.
Was Peter in any trade? (like fishing)
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Luke was the physician. Peter was a fisherman.
Matthew 4:18 NIV
As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers,
Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew.
They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
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I suppose my question could have been more verbose to clarify it. First, a little algebra: X=Y. If X is in one language, and Y is in another, but they are equal; can I quote X for people who understand Y? If someone writes that I said something in X, would their writing in Y look like I said it is Y also? Since Greek was the language of business enterprises, that doesn't tell me that everyone spoke Greek. I've been to countries that were previously "owned" by England. I find English speakers there, but most of them don't. I have some assurance that I can go into hotels and most shops and find an English speaker.
Therefore, I am cautious to make make assumptions. Instead, I'll let a couple other references show:
For decades scholarly consensus has held that Jesus usually spoke the Aramaic language. To evaluate the accuracy of this assumption, one must investigate to learn which language(s) was(were) spoken in Israel during the first century A.D., and whether the sayings of Jesus in the Gospels record the spoken Greek of Jesus or are translations of what He said in Hebrew or Aramaic. Evidence for the use of Aramaic in the areas where Jesus lived and taught is strong, but not necessarily strong enough to exclude His use of other languages. Hebrew was not a dead language after the Babylonian Exile as some have assumed. Documents, inscriptions, and coins have shown the continued use of Hebrew during the time that Jesus was in Israel, particularly in the area of Judea.
What Language Did Jesus Speak? | HISTORY
While historians and scholars debate many aspects of Jesus' life, most agree on what language he mainly spoke.
www.history.com
The issue of Jesus’ preferred language memorably came up in 2014, during a public meeting in Jerusalem between Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, and Pope Francis, during the pontiff’s tour of the Holy Land. Speaking to the pope through an interpreter, Netanyahu declared: “Jesus was here, in this land. He spoke Hebrew.”
Francis broke in, correcting him. “Aramaic,” he said, referring to the ancient Semitic language, now mostly extinct, that originated among a people known as the Aramaeans around the late 11th century B.C. As reported in the Washington Post, a version of it is still spoken today by communities of Chaldean Christians in Iraq and Syria.
“He spoke Aramaic, but he knew Hebrew,” Netanyahu replied quickly.
Most religious scholars and historians agree with Pope Francis that the historical Jesus principally spoke a Galilean dialect of Aramaic. Through trade, invasions and conquest, the Aramaic language had spread far afield by the 7th century B.C. and would become the lingua franca in much of the Middle East.
In the first century A.D., it would have been the most commonly used language among ordinary Jewish people, as opposed to the religious elite, and the most likely to have been used among Jesus and his disciples in their daily lives.
But Netanyahu was technically correct as well. Hebrew, which is from the same linguistic family as Aramaic, was also in common use in Jesus’ day. Similar to Latin today, Hebrew was the chosen language for religious scholars and the holy scriptures, including the Bible (although some of the Old Testament was written in Aramaic).
Jesus likely understood Hebrew, though his everyday life would have been conducted in Aramaic. Of the first four books of the New Testament, the Gospels of Matthew and Mark records Jesus using Aramaic terms and phrases, while in Luke 4:16, he was shown reading Hebrew from the Bible at a synagogue.
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