Was Bible Possession banned by the Catholic Church

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Marymog

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I got it while reading and studying the scriptures myself.

No man ever taught me that. I only recall definitely knowing one person who believed as I do but he did not teach it to me. I am certain you will doubt me still when I say that God showed me. I know already what the Catholic Church believes about John 14:26.
Amadeus,

It is not a matter of "what the Catholic Church believes about John 14:26". It IS a matter of what that passage truly means. That passage doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is guiding "YOU into all things and bringing all things to YOUR remembrance." If your interpretation were true, then when I or anyone else tells you something different than what YOU believe then that means that the Holy Spirit has guided ME into the truth also. Both of us can't be preaching the Truth if both of us are preaching different truths.

Your interpretation of that passage means that the Holy Spirit is confused or lying to one of us.

Mary
 

amadeus

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Amadeus,

It is not a matter of "what the Catholic Church believes about John 14:26". It IS a matter of what that passage truly means. That passage doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is guiding "YOU into all things and bringing all things to YOUR remembrance." If your interpretation were true, then when I or anyone else tells you something different than what YOU believe then that means that the Holy Spirit has guided ME into the truth also. Both of us can't be preaching the Truth if both of us are preaching different truths.
What I meant was that Catholic Church believes that the verse is directed only to certain persons, the apostles in particular. I believe it is directed to all readers or hearers... which includes me. The confusion you relate to... truly does exist, but it exists, I believe, because too many people too often are not being guided by the Holy Spirit although they might say or even believe that they are.
Your interpretation of that passage means that the Holy Spirit is confused or lying to one of us.

Mary
Your conclusion only holds true when you are comparing people with each other.
Two people being led by the Holy Spirit will not disagree... If two people do disagree on a point or even a whole doctrine either one or both of them is not being led the Spirit.
 

Illuminator

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I got it while reading and studying the scriptures myself.

No man ever taught me that. I only recall definitely knowing one person who believed as I do but he did not teach it to me. I am certain you will doubt me still when I say that God showed me.
Not really. You are a respected member and not an anti-Catholic. Your posts are worth reading.
I know already what the Catholic Church believes about John 14:26.
John 14:26 suggests Development of Doctrine.

C. S. Lewis, the famous Anglican writer, once wrote:

The very possibility of progress demands that there should be an unchanging element . . . the positive historical statements made by Christianity have the power . . . of receiving, without intrinsic change, the increasing complexity of meaning which increasing knowledge puts into them.
(God in the Dock, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1970, 44-47)
The Catholic Church, in agreement with Lewis, defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.

Like many Christian doctrines, the idea of doctrinal development is based on much implicit or indirect scriptural evidence. The best indications are perhaps Mt. 5:17, 13:31-2, Jn. 14:26, 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, 4:12-15. Furthermore, doctrine clearly develops within Scripture (“progressive revelation”). Examples: doctrines of the afterlife, the Trinity, the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son), the Holy Spirit (Divine Person in the New Testament), the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, etc. Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

In general, whenever Scripture refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians and the Church, an idea very similar to doctrinal development is present. Holy Scripture, then, is in no way hostile to development. It is only Protestant presuppositions – not always so “biblical” – which preclude development for fear of “excess.”

The Canon of Scripture itself is an example of developing doctrine. The New Testament never informs us which books comprise itself, and its Canon (final list of books) took about 360 years to reach its final form (at the Council of Carthage in 397). For instance, the books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were not widely accepted by the Church until 350 A.D.!

And books such as Barnabas and 1 and 2 Clement were considered Scripture by many at the same time (for example, the manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus). Of the 27 New Testament books, 14 were not mentioned at all until around 200 A.D., including Acts, 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Colossians.

On what grounds, then, can we receive the Canon today except on the authority of the Church in the 5th century? These facts cause insuperable problems for Protestantism and its guiding principle of “Scripture Alone,” but are not a difficulty in the least for Catholics, who believe in Tradition, Church Authority, and development – all crucial elements in the very human process of selection of the biblical Canon.

It is plain silly (not to mention insufferably arrogant) to assert, as did Luther and especially Calvin, that the knowledge of what books constitute Scripture is attained simply by an intuitive and subjective inkling within each Spirit-filled person. If the early Church had such a difficult time determining what was and was not Scripture, how could Calvin 15 centuries later claim that it was altogether simple for him and every other sincere Christian?!

The Church is called the “Body” of Christ often (e.g., Eph. 1:22-3), and is compared to a seed which grows into a tree (Mt. 13:31-2). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. Yet Protestants tend to see Church and Doctrine as more like a statue, subject to pigeon droppings (i.e., so-called Catholic “corruptions”!). This robs the metaphors of Christ of their essential meaning. It is impossible to claim that no development occurred in Church history, or that it ceased after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century, etc. (all arbitrary human traditions). The Bible is not absolutely clear in every part, and requires the developing wisdom of the Church.

Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?

Although understanding increases, the essential elements of doctrines exist from the beginning. Today’s Church shouldn’t be expected to look like the primitive Church if it is a living, vibrant, spiritual organism. But even the early Church looks like a small “Catholic tree.” It doesn’t look like a Protestant “statue,” doomed to be increasingly corrupted by an encroaching, “diabolical” Catholicism, as is imagined by millions of Protestants unacquainted with the early Church and the oldest source materials after the New Testament, such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (d.c. 110) and St. Clement of Rome (d.c.101).

read more here
 
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RedFan

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Certainly. A person speaks or writes as he is led by the Holy Sprit or he doesn't no matter what he may claim. God knows.
Well, that could create a problem. What do we do about John and the Synoptics disagreeing on whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal? What do we do about disagreement over whether Joseph’s lineage is traced from David through Solomon (Matt. 1:6) or through Nathan (Luke 3:31)? What do we do about disagreement over whether Jesus sent his apostles out with sandals and staff (Mark 6:8-9) or without them (Matthew 10:10)? What do we do about disagreement over whether the centurion who wanted Jesus to heal his servant approached Jesus in person (Matthew 8:5-13) or sent an intermediary (Luke 7:2-10)?
 

amadeus

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Well, that could create a problem. What do we do about John and the Synoptics disagreeing on whether the Last Supper was a Passover meal? What do we do about disagreement over whether Joseph’s lineage is traced from David through Solomon (Matt. 1:6) or through Nathan (Luke 3:31)? What do we do about disagreement over whether Jesus sent his apostles out with sandals and staff (Mark 6:8-9) or without them (Matthew 10:10)? What do we do about disagreement over whether the centurion who wanted Jesus to heal his servant approached Jesus in person (Matthew 8:5-13) or sent an intermediary (Luke 7:2-10)?
If it matters to you in your walk with God then pursue it, but be careful always to test the spirits whether they be of His Spirit or not. If it does not matter in your walk with God then why worry about it?
 

RedFan

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If it matters to you in your walk with God then pursue it, but be careful always to test the spirits whether they be of His Spirit or not. If it does not matter in your walk with God then why worry about it?
Fair point. But I have difficulty treating contradictory Scriptures as inspired, and the Spirit doesn't point me to which one is correct.
 
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amadeus

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Fair point. But I have difficulty treating contradictory Scriptures as inspired, and the Spirit doesn't point me to which one is correct.
Years ago I learned to put things up on the shelf for the moment if I could not understand a something. We are to live for God by faith rather than by knowledge. The Finisher of our faith is Jesus. Let him finish it with knowledge in his time... not ours. Study it if you will but do not be concerned if no clear answer comes to you NOW.
Php 4:11Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.


Heb 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Your problem with copying trash ...You go hundreds of years pretending to be the "Rock" of the religion.......
HUH??
Did the truth bother you?

Anyway - Peter is the Rock. That's what "Peter" means (Kepha).

The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered - and continues to splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrine.
 

Illuminator

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Fair point. But I have difficulty treating contradictory Scriptures as inspired, and the Spirit doesn't point me to which one is correct.
In short, the attempts at resolutions of these contradictions cloak an effort to “mine” truth from the Bible, an effort to interpret Biblical verses correctly. My hope is that this article will not only help you to make conclusions about the Bible’s inerrancy, but also encourage you to discover what you consider to be valid and invalid Biblical interpretations.

However, before we launch into the actual reply, there are several points worth mentioning.

First, it would be prudent to speak of the burden of proof. It’s a general rule in philosophy that she who proposes must explain and defend. If someone says that “X exists,” the burden is on her to provide a case for the existence of X. The burden is not on the one who denies that X exists. For how can one prove a negative?

In this case, it is the critic who proposes. He claims that the Bible is “full of contradictions,” and often proposes a lengthy list such as the one we are about to respond to below. Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the “true one” is not all that relevant in such contexts.

This is important. What is really relevant is whether our explanations show that the point of contention is not necessarily a contradiction. If we succeed, then the critic’s assertion that “X and Y are contradictory” is no longer an obvious truth, instead it becomes merely a belief that someone holds.

A popular mistake is to take things out of context. It is easy to “create contradictions” when there are none by violating the context of the passage(s) in question.

More significant, though less mentioned, is violating the context of belief. Christian understanding is a synthesis of many beliefs, and Biblical teachings are often interpreted through this background belief which has been synthesized. Such a synthesis may include other facts, not directly related to the contradiction in question, but nevertheless, relevant. When the critic proposes a contradiction, he ought to do so within the context of this background belief. By failing to do this, he merely imposes alien concepts into the text as if they belong. This error is common when the critic tries to cite contradictions related to doctrine or beliefs about the nature of God. For example, orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity. One could argue about this concept elsewhere, but trying to impose contradictions by ignoring Trinitarian belief violates the context provided by the Christian’s background belief.

Or consider a mundane example. Say that Joe is recorded as saying that Sam is not his son. But elsewhere, he is recorded as saying that Sam is his son. An obvious contradiction, right? But what if one’s background belief about Joe and Sam includes the belief that Sam is Joe’s adopted son? By ignoring the context this belief provides, one perceives contradictions where there are none.

The critic sometimes assumes that the Biblical accounts are exhaustive in all details and intended to be precise. This is rarely the case. As such, the critic builds on a faulty assumption and perceives contradictions where none exist.

Also related to the context problem: Let’s say that the only records of Joe speaking about Sam are the two cases where he affirms and denies that Sam is his son. Certainly Joe said many other things in his life, but they were not recorded — including the
fact that he adopted a boy and named him Sam.

Another real-life case concerns a newspaper report which lists the time of birth of twin babies. The first was born at 1:40 AM, and
second was born at 1:10 AM. If this account did not have the added detail that the birth occurred the during the night in which Daylight
Savings ended, it would appear to be a real contradiction/error. You have to know the whole story, or at least have a plausible explanation.

Since the accounts in the Bible are rarely intended as exhaustive and precise descriptions, it would be prudent to see if differing accounts complement, rather than contradict one another.

 
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Illuminator

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HUH??
Did the truth bother you?

Anyway - Peter is the Rock. That's what "Peter" means (Kepha).

The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered - and continues to splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrine.
Yes, and we are instructed to regard all baptized Protestants, or whatever they wish to call themselves, as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
official teaching: CCC817-820

870 "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines"(LG 8).

The Catholic Church is NOT anti-Protestant.
 
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Windmillcharge

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That makes no sense. Thousands of fragments from a few hundred pages of ancient writings we have found = high literacy????????
Actually it does make sense, early Christians valued the Epistles and the gospels and made great efforts to have copies. That is why there are a great many fragments.
There was a far high literacy rate than is commonly assumed.
The incidents of graphiti in Pompeil shows that.
 

RedFan

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In short, the attempts at resolutions of these contradictions cloak an effort to “mine” truth from the Bible, an effort to interpret Biblical verses correctly. My hope is that this article will not only help you to make conclusions about the Bible’s inerrancy, but also encourage you to discover what you consider to be valid and invalid Biblical interpretations.

However, before we launch into the actual reply, there are several points worth mentioning.

First, it would be prudent to speak of the burden of proof. It’s a general rule in philosophy that she who proposes must explain and defend. If someone says that “X exists,” the burden is on her to provide a case for the existence of X. The burden is not on the one who denies that X exists. For how can one prove a negative?

In this case, it is the critic who proposes. He claims that the Bible is “full of contradictions,” and often proposes a lengthy list such as the one we are about to respond to below. Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the “true one” is not all that relevant in such contexts.

This is important. What is really relevant is whether our explanations show that the point of contention is not necessarily a contradiction. If we succeed, then the critic’s assertion that “X and Y are contradictory” is no longer an obvious truth, instead it becomes merely a belief that someone holds.

A popular mistake is to take things out of context. It is easy to “create contradictions” when there are none by violating the context of the passage(s) in question.

More significant, though less mentioned, is violating the context of belief. Christian understanding is a synthesis of many beliefs, and Biblical teachings are often interpreted through this background belief which has been synthesized. Such a synthesis may include other facts, not directly related to the contradiction in question, but nevertheless, relevant. When the critic proposes a contradiction, he ought to do so within the context of this background belief. By failing to do this, he merely imposes alien concepts into the text as if they belong. This error is common when the critic tries to cite contradictions related to doctrine or beliefs about the nature of God. For example, orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity. One could argue about this concept elsewhere, but trying to impose contradictions by ignoring Trinitarian belief violates the context provided by the Christian’s background belief.

Or consider a mundane example. Say that Joe is recorded as saying that Sam is not his son. But elsewhere, he is recorded as saying that Sam is his son. An obvious contradiction, right? But what if one’s background belief about Joe and Sam includes the belief that Sam is Joe’s adopted son? By ignoring the context this belief provides, one perceives contradictions where there are none.

The critic sometimes assumes that the Biblical accounts are exhaustive in all details and intended to be precise. This is rarely the case. As such, the critic builds on a faulty assumption and perceives contradictions where none exist.

Also related to the context problem: Let’s say that the only records of Joe speaking about Sam are the two cases where he affirms and denies that Sam is his son. Certainly Joe said many other things in his life, but they were not recorded — including the
fact that he adopted a boy and named him Sam.

Another real-life case concerns a newspaper report which lists the time of birth of twin babies. The first was born at 1:40 AM, and
second was born at 1:10 AM. If this account did not have the added detail that the birth occurred the during the night in which Daylight
Savings ended, it would appear to be a real contradiction/error. You have to know the whole story, or at least have a plausible explanation.

Since the accounts in the Bible are rarely intended as exhaustive and precise descriptions, it would be prudent to see if differing accounts complement, rather than contradict one another.

Thanks for the link. I will give you my reaction:

Biblical inconsistencies come in two basic flavors. Some passages are literally consistent, i.e., they do not contradict each other – but they present contradictory pictures of God or of His commands. (Let’s call these theologically inconsistent passages.) Others are literally inconsistent, giving differing factual accounts of the same event.

An example of theological inconsistency: John 8:50 quotes Christ as declaring that he did not seek his own glory, suggesting that the sacrifice of Christ was purely an act of selfless love. Yet Heb. 12:2 suggests that Christ endured the cross “for the joy that was set before him,” i.e., exaltation to the right-hand seat in the throne room of God.

The second type of inconsistency―the literal ones―I find easiest to explain through human error. And here, I part company with the inerrancy theorists. They care deeply that their Bible contain no factual inconsistencies whatsoever, even as to the extraneous historical details that have no bearing on the theological message of Scripture. And they are willing to indulge in some rather convoluted explanations to reach their goal. If they cannot reach that goal without total sacrifice of logic, they may plead a copyist’s error as a last resort, but a sacrifice of logic is generally favored over that last resort. But when there is a facial error/contradiction, the burden of proof shifts to the inerrancy theorist to explain it away. I will concede that with sufficient presumptions and mental machinations indulging the improbable, virtually all of these facial inconsistencies can be harmonized. My question is, why indulge them?

The only reason I can see to do so is in order to shore up one’s initial presumption of inerrancy. For example, in attempting a harmonization of Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10, Vern S. Poythress states “We have the accounts in Mathew and Luke, which are inspired by God. They are what God says and are therefore trustworthy. That is the conviction we have and the basis on which we work.” Poythress, Inerrancy and the Gospels: A God-Centered Approach to the Challenges of Harmonization (Crossway 2012) at 21.

And here is where I must dissent. This approach seems to me to be reasoning the matter backwards. Inerrancy should be a conclusion from the evidence, not an axiom by which to assess the evidence.

I do not see the point in downplaying the human element like this. I expect theological truth from my Bible, not factual accuracy on minute historical details. And I am not scandalized by inaccuracies as to the latter. The better approach, in my opinion, is to focus on the inerrancy of the message of a given passage, rather than of the extraneous details with which the passage is adorned.

Consider, for example, Mark 2:26, which quotes Jesus as saying that David entered the house of God and ate the altar bread “when Abiathar was high priest.” 1 Samuel 21:1-6 is explicit that Ahimelech, not his son Abiathar, was high priest at the time. In my view, it doesn’t matter whether Jesus got this detail wrong or Mark got it wrong, simply because it doesn’t matter at all―to the message of the gospel story. The point being made by Jesus (or Mark) is theologically sound even if not historically accurate, originally or in the retelling.
 

Marymog

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Actually it does make sense, early Christians valued the Epistles and the gospels and made great efforts to have copies. That is why there are a great many fragments.
There was a far high literacy rate than is commonly assumed.
The incidents of graphiti in Pompeil shows that.
Got it. When you were using the word "fragments" I thought you were suggesting 1 page from an Epistle would be in 15 pieces (fragments) and those fragments numbered in the THOUSANDS. It appears that's not what you meant. I misunderstood what you were saying. I apologize.

Now that I better understand what you are saying, your logic is still not logical: thousands of fragments = high literacy.

Those thousands of fragments (manuscripts) that we have today were written over hundreds of years. They were in thousands of towns throughout the Roman Empire and the word. In each town there were probably only a few copies; at the church(es) and wealthy people who could afford to pay for their own handwritten copies. There is zero evidence that thousands of fragments = high literacy.

I can't find any evidence of your "far high literacy rate than is commonly assumed." I have found evidence contrary to that, but maybe your research is better than mine.



 
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Marymog

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What I meant was that Catholic Church believes that the verse is directed only to certain persons, the apostles in particular. I believe it is directed to all readers or hearers... which includes me. The confusion you relate to... truly does exist, but it exists, I believe, because too many people too often are not being guided by the Holy Spirit although they might say or even believe that they are.
Amadeus,

I know what you meant to say, sir. The Catholic Church teaches that John 14:26 is directed only to certain persons, the apostles in particular. Why has The Church taught that for 2,000 years Amadeus? Because Scripture is clear that The Apostles were the only one's present. They were the only ones He was talking to. And logically every Christian who has ever lived since those words were spoken 2,000 years ago will not be taught by the Holy Spirit and be brought into remembrance all things that Jesus said. Logic destroys your theory.

There are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written everyone, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. It is more LOGICAL that John 21:25 is in reference to John 14:26 because your interpretation of that passage Amadeus is NOT logical. Your interpretation does not fit the context (only Apostle's present) of what was written, and it doesn't fit the logic (all Christians forever will be guided by the Holy Spirit into the Truth) of what was written. It seems to me you are suggesting, and I may be wrong, that you believe that YOU are being guided by the Holy Spirit who is teaching you all things.

There is no confusion on anyone's part except yours and anyone that agrees with you.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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We are to live for God by faith rather than by knowledge

Let's not forget lack of knowledge is actually a problem:

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
 
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Marymog

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Your conclusion only holds true when you are comparing people with each other.
Two people being led by the Holy Spirit will not disagree... If two people do disagree on a point or even a whole doctrine either one or both of them is not being led the Spirit.
Dear Amadeus, your statement, two people being led by the Holy Spirit will not disagree, is true and we agree with that. That is a LOGICAL conclusion/statement.

But that's NOT what we are talking about. We are talking SPECIFICALLY about your interpretation of a SPECIFIC passage, John 14:26, of which your interpretation is not LOGICAL!

Your interpretation of that passage, based on context and logic, is false. You are clearly not being led by the Holy Spirit in your interpretation of that passage even though I am sure you believe you are being led by the Holy Spirit. This situation is a perfect example of how YOUR interpretation vs other Holy Spirit inspired interpretations suggest that the Holy Spirit is confused since you believe you were led by the Holy Spirit to your interpretation.

To be honest with you sir, I can't do this. I know there is nothing I can say that is going to change your mind. You have convinced yourself that you are right and no matter what logic or context of Scripture or Scripture passages I present that proves you wrong, you're going to say you are right.


Best regards....Mary
 

BreadOfLife

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Actually it does make sense, early Christians valued the Epistles and the gospels and made great efforts to have copies. That is why there are a great many fragments.
There was a far high literacy rate than is commonly assumed.
The incidents of graphiti in Pompeil shows that.
FALSE.
The Epistles were READ ALOUD to the people, who were mostly illiterate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20estimated%20that,3%20percent%20or%207.7%20percent.
It has been estimated that at least 90 percent of the Jewish population of Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE could merely write their own name or not write and read at all, or that the literacy rate was either about 3 percent or 7.7 percent.

https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/education/concepts/illiteracy/history#:~:text=Throughout%20most%20of%20history%20most,end%20of%20the%2014th%20cent.

Throughout most of history most people have been illiterate. In feudal society, for example, the ability to read and write was of value only to the clergy and aristocracy. The first known reference to “literate laymen” did not appear until the end of the 14th century. Illiteracy was not seen as a problem until after the invention of printing in the 15th cent. The first significant decline in illiteracy came with the Reformation”
 
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