Was Bible Possession banned by the Catholic Church

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Illuminator

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Thanks for the link. I will give you my reaction:

Biblical inconsistencies come in two basic flavors. Some passages are literally consistent, i.e., they do not contradict each other – but they present contradictory pictures of God or of His commands. (Let’s call these theologically inconsistent passages.) Others are literally inconsistent, giving differing factual accounts of the same event.

An example of theological inconsistency: John 8:50 quotes Christ as declaring that he did not seek his own glory, suggesting that the sacrifice of Christ was purely an act of selfless love. Yet Heb. 12:2 suggests that Christ endured the cross “for the joy that was set before him,” i.e., exaltation to the right-hand seat in the throne room of God./'

" an act of selfless love' and 'the joy that was set before him" are two different things.
'exaltation to the right-hand seat in the throne room of God" would not be possible without "an act of selfless love." but if you want to believe its a theological inconsistency, go right ahead.
The second type of inconsistency―the literal ones―I find easiest to explain through human error. And here, I part company with the inerrancy theorists. They care deeply that their Bible contain no factual inconsistencies whatsoever, even as to the extraneous historical details that have no bearing on the theological message of Scripture. And they are willing to indulge in some rather convoluted explanations to reach their goal. If they cannot reach that goal without total sacrifice of logic, they may plead a copyist’s error as a last resort, but a sacrifice of logic is generally favored over that last resort. But when there is a facial error/contradiction, the burden of proof shifts to the inerrancy theorist to explain it away. I will concede that with sufficient presumptions and mental machinations indulging the improbable, virtually all of these facial inconsistencies can be harmonized. My question is, why indulge them?
All that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the “true one” is not all that relevant in such contexts.
The only reason I can see to do so is in order to shore up one’s initial presumption of inerrancy. For example, in attempting a harmonization of Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10, Vern S. Poythress states “We have the accounts in Mathew and Luke, which are inspired by God. They are what God says and are therefore trustworthy. That is the conviction we have and the basis on which we work.” Poythress, Inerrancy and the Gospels: A God-Centered Approach to the Challenges of Harmonization (Crossway 2012) at 21.

And here is where I must dissent. This approach seems to me to be reasoning the matter backwards. Inerrancy should be a conclusion from the evidence, not an axiom by which to assess the evidence.
143 so called contradictions have been explained, but you want me to jump into another rabbit hole.
I do not see the point in downplaying the human element like this. I expect theological truth from my Bible, not factual accuracy on minute historical details. And I am not scandalized by inaccuracies as to the latter. The better approach, in my opinion, is to focus on the inerrancy of the message of a given passage, rather than of the extraneous details with which the passage is adorned.

Consider, for example, Mark 2:26, which quotes Jesus as saying that David entered the house of God and ate the altar bread “when Abiathar was high priest.” 1 Samuel 21:1-6 is explicit that Ahimelech, not his son Abiathar, was high priest at the time. In my view, it doesn’t matter whether Jesus got this detail wrong or Mark got it wrong, simply because it doesn’t matter at all―to the message of the gospel story. The point being made by Jesus (or Mark) is theologically sound even if not historically accurate, originally or in the retelling.
I believe the Bible is inerrant based on faith, which you seem to lack.
 

Illuminator

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FALSE.
The Epistles were READ ALOUD to the people, who were mostly illiterate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20estimated%20that,3%20percent%20or%207.7%20percent.
It has been estimated that at least 90 percent of the Jewish population of Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE could merely write their own name or not write and read at all, or that the literacy rate was either about 3 percent or 7.7 percent.

https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/education/concepts/illiteracy/history#:~:text=Throughout%20most%20of%20history%20most,end%20of%20the%2014th%20cent.

Throughout most of history most people have been illiterate. In feudal society, for example, the ability to read and write was of value only to the clergy and aristocracy. The first known reference to “literate laymen” did not appear until the end of the 14th century. Illiteracy was not seen as a problem until after the invention of printing in the 15th cent. The first significant decline in illiteracy came with the Reformation”
Protestantism would never have survived without inventing a history of their own.

"One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."​
Cardinal Newman (former Anglican bishop who set out to disprove Catholicism, only to convert to Catholicism)
 
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amadeus

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Let's not forget lack of knowledge is actually a problem:

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Indeed, and our God leads people to knowledge, but it starts with faith. I believe that when faith is finally gone it will have been replaced by knowledge.

I believe that God has absolute knowledge. Did Jesus as man live by faith as we do... or did he live by knowledge? Either way, he was always following his Father's will. If we can do that, [and have we not been given the Holy Spirit to make it possible?] cannot our faith become knowledge?
 

amadeus

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In short, the attempts at resolutions of these contradictions cloak an effort to “mine” truth from the Bible, an effort to interpret Biblical verses correctly. My hope is that this article will not only help you to make conclusions about the Bible’s inerrancy, but also encourage you to discover what you consider to be valid and invalid Biblical interpretations.

However, before we launch into the actual reply, there are several points worth mentioning.

First, it would be prudent to speak of the burden of proof. It’s a general rule in philosophy that she who proposes must explain and defend. If someone says that “X exists,” the burden is on her to provide a case for the existence of X. The burden is not on the one who denies that X exists. For how can one prove a negative?

In this case, it is the critic who proposes. He claims that the Bible is “full of contradictions,” and often proposes a lengthy list such as the one we are about to respond to below. Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the “true one” is not all that relevant in such contexts.

This is important. What is really relevant is whether our explanations show that the point of contention is not necessarily a contradiction. If we succeed, then the critic’s assertion that “X and Y are contradictory” is no longer an obvious truth, instead it becomes merely a belief that someone holds.

A popular mistake is to take things out of context. It is easy to “create contradictions” when there are none by violating the context of the passage(s) in question.

More significant, though less mentioned, is violating the context of belief. Christian understanding is a synthesis of many beliefs, and Biblical teachings are often interpreted through this background belief which has been synthesized. Such a synthesis may include other facts, not directly related to the contradiction in question, but nevertheless, relevant. When the critic proposes a contradiction, he ought to do so within the context of this background belief. By failing to do this, he merely imposes alien concepts into the text as if they belong. This error is common when the critic tries to cite contradictions related to doctrine or beliefs about the nature of God. For example, orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity. One could argue about this concept elsewhere, but trying to impose contradictions by ignoring Trinitarian belief violates the context provided by the Christian’s background belief.

Or consider a mundane example. Say that Joe is recorded as saying that Sam is not his son. But elsewhere, he is recorded as saying that Sam is his son. An obvious contradiction, right? But what if one’s background belief about Joe and Sam includes the belief that Sam is Joe’s adopted son? By ignoring the context this belief provides, one perceives contradictions where there are none.

The critic sometimes assumes that the Biblical accounts are exhaustive in all details and intended to be precise. This is rarely the case. As such, the critic builds on a faulty assumption and perceives contradictions where none exist.

Also related to the context problem: Let’s say that the only records of Joe speaking about Sam are the two cases where he affirms and denies that Sam is his son. Certainly Joe said many other things in his life, but they were not recorded — including the
fact that he adopted a boy and named him Sam.

Another real-life case concerns a newspaper report which lists the time of birth of twin babies. The first was born at 1:40 AM, and
second was born at 1:10 AM. If this account did not have the added detail that the birth occurred the during the night in which Daylight
Savings ended, it would appear to be a real contradiction/error. You have to know the whole story, or at least have a plausible explanation.

Since the accounts in the Bible are rarely intended as exhaustive and precise descriptions, it would be prudent to see if differing accounts complement, rather than contradict one another.

You make a good case with regard to contradictions or apparent contradictions. Usually, my failing mind cannot follow such things at length, [so I usually skip over them], but I believe I managed this time. I may still have missed it. I believe you did not mention how faith is a necessary part of our walk with God in spite of what logic may at times seem to dictate. Consider:

Heb 11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Some people simply do not really understand what it means to be logical and explaining it to them may not help. Yet, some, probably many, of those people really do sincerely believe in God and love Him.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Indeed, and our God leads people to knowledge, but it starts with faith. I believe that when faith is finally gone it will have been replaced by knowledge.

Without the knowledge of what God has said... there is nothing to have faith in except for all the lies the devil tells people concerning God's Word not being truth.


Did Jesus as man live by faith as we do... or did he live by knowledge?

He lived both... Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1)

Without the knowledge of what God said giving us hope... faith cannot provide substance since we would have nothing to believe in without having the knowledge of what God has said to base our faith on.

This is why the devil works so hard to blind people's minds (understanding, vision) of those that don't believe (2 Corinthians 4:4)... so they cannot see (have knowledge) of anything to believe in which is why unbelievers don't believe... they can't see that God's Word is true and have no knowledge of the Word.

God has given faith every man (Romans 12:3) but one must have hope as the anchor of our soul (Hebrews 6:17 - 6:20) so our faith has something to believe in.

It's why God wants all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4) which start with accepting what God says, having knowledge of His Word
 

amadeus

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Dear Amadeus, your statement, two people being led by the Holy Spirit will not disagree, is true and we agree with that. That is a LOGICAL conclusion/statement.

But that's NOT what we are talking about. We are talking SPECIFICALLY about your interpretation of a SPECIFIC passage, John 14:26, of which your interpretation is not LOGICAL!

Your interpretation of that passage, based on context and logic, is false. You are clearly not being led by the Holy Spirit in your interpretation of that passage even though I am sure you believe you are being led by the Holy Spirit. This situation is a perfect example of how YOUR interpretation vs other Holy Spirit inspired interpretations suggest that the Holy Spirit is confused since you believe you were led by the Holy Spirit to your interpretation.

To be honest with you sir, I can't do this. I know there is nothing I can say that is going to change your mind. You have convinced yourself that you are right and no matter what logic or context of Scripture or Scripture passages I present that proves you wrong, you're going to say you are right.


Best regards....Mary
I am very slow to say that I am right and that someone else is wrong... even if I believe that. This something I learned to do some time ago in order to converse with a person without bumping heads or at least not too hard. I am certain that I am wrong about some things. I just do not know what they are. This is why I strive to remain open to God directly or through other people. How can one ever be increased even by God if he has closed his heart and his mind?
 

bluedragon

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HUH??
Did the truth bother you?

Anyway - Peter is the Rock. That's what "Peter" means (Kepha).

The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered - and continues to splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrine.
HUH??
Did the truth bother you?

Anyway - Peter is the Rock. That's what "Peter" means (Kepha).

The Catholic Church is the Original Tree from which Protestantism splintered - and continues to splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrine.

I admit Peter was declared the Rock ...after that .....not so much
I didn't have a problem with truth ....I have a tremendous problem with MYTH created from historic inaccuracies that best describe what the Catholic Churches origins and where they come from. Peter went to his death with no knowledge of the name of the creation of the Catholic Church and certainly no knowledge of being the "First Bishop or Pope" of any such creation. The name created of this myth doesn't originate until the third century.

Don't poke me with your created truths when they don't exist.
..Quit reciting what the church tells you about their supposed creation and rely instead on what is historically accurate. Otherwise let's discuss Mohammad and his wild ride on his winged horse from a place he never visited ....
 
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BreadOfLife

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I admit Peter was declared the Rock ...after that .....not so much
I didn't have a problem with truth ....I have a tremendous problem with MYTH created from historic inaccuracies that best describe what the Catholic Churches origins and where they come from. Peter went to his death with no knowledge of the name of the creation of the Catholic Church and certainly no knowledge of being the "First Bishop or Pope" of any such creation. The name created of this myth doesn't originate until the third century.

Don't poke me with your created truths when they don't exist.
..Quit reciting what the church tells you about their supposed creation and rely instead on what is historically accurate. Otherwise let's discuss Mohammad and his wild ride on his winged horse from a place he never visited ....
In Acts 1, the Eleven Apostles and about 120 others gathered to elect a successor (NOT just a replacement) to Judas. Peter quotes the Psalm in verse 21:

Acts 1:20
‘Let another take his office.’

The Greek word used here for “office” is “Episkopay”, which means “Bishopric”.
Peter was not only the first Bishop of Rome – he was one of the first Bishops, period, along with the other Eleven.

In Against Heresies, the 2nd century document from Irenaeus, he lists all of the Bishops of Rome (Popes) from his own day all the way back to Peter,100 years earlier.

The Church was already being called "The Catholic Church", by the end of the FIRST century as we read in the following document, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, by Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch. He was Peter's successor in Antioch and a lifelong student of the Apostle John:


Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Finally – the only “inventions” that YOU need to be concerned with are all of the 16th century inventions your Protestant Fathers concocted . . .

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.

What a
mess . . .
 

Grailhunter

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The Catholic Church has never actively discouraged the reading or studying of the Bible except in cases of heretical groups and literature.
Up until recently in history, this would not have been much of an issue. The average person couldn’t read, so there was nothing for the Church to discourage, and until the invention of the printing press, copies of the Bible were relatively rare. In those periods the Church did indeed forbid heretical groups from preaching heterodox interpretations of the Bible and the faithful from attending such gatherings. But that is a far cry from banning the faithful from learning about the Bible.

Once the printing press made copies of the Bible more available, the Church did forbid certain versions that contained heretical translations and commentary. Once again, that is far different from the claim that the Church "forbade" the faithful to read or study the Bible.
The fact that Latin Vulgate version of the Bible was available to Catholics, as were various approved vernacular translations, flies in the face of the accusation that the Church tried to keep the Bible from the faithful. The Catholic Church even produced an English version of the Bible (Douay-Rheims) before the King James Version!

This is completely wrong and false from stem to stern. Catholics need to learn their own history, it would help them to move forward. The Catholic people deserve to have the truth told to them. The modern Catholic Church is the best that it has ever been. I am talking the general religion, and Catholic people in the congregations….on the other hand the Vatican is not worth 2 cents but thankfully it does not have the power to initiate the atrocities that use to be the hallmark of the leadership of the Catholic Church….the Inquisitions and Witch-hunts were totally sanctioned by the Church.

The Lust for control and hatred….a little history...
The driving force behind a lot of their initiatives was the hated for women, sex, romantic love, and marriage. Yes marriage! Although they made marriage a sacrament in the 13th century, they did not allow wedding ceremonies in the Church buildings until the 17th century and did not have anything good to say about marriage for a long time. They did not make wedding ceremonies a requirement until after the Protestants made it a requirement in the 16th century.

The hatred of women and sex was the reason for the requirement of celibacy among the clergy. This one has bit them in the tail all through history. Horny men and women do not make good religious leaders and all of the scandals and molestations have tarnished the reputation of the Catholic Church. They are very very slow learners. A little off topic….sorry but it is inline for the lust for control.

The driving force behind not letting Catholics or anyone else having Bibles had to do with a couple things.

1. The overall lust for control of everything.
2. They wanted authority over the Word of God.
3. They wanted authority over salvation.
4. They wanted Christianity to be of one belief. Sounds like a good idea but first you have to know the truth and they are a ways from that even today. Secondly, you kind of defeat the purpose and curse your character if you kill people over it.

Catholic censorship of the Bible included restrictions and prohibition of possessing, reading, or using any Bible in general which even included the Catholic Bible. Only the clergy were allowed to posses and use Bibles.

Violators of possession of a Bible, Catholic or otherwise have at times been punished by imprisonment, forced labor, banishment and execution, as well as by the burning or confiscating of Bibles.

The same penalty was levied against anyone that translated the scriptures or distributed Bibles. Gatherings that studied the Bible were deemed heretical or occultic by Pope Innocent III in 1199 and they could suffer the same punishment.

There is a whole list of people in history that were punished or killed for translating the Bible or distributing the Bible.

In 1400 Johannes Gutenberg invented the type set printing press and the first Bible printed on it was in Latin….The Catholic Church tried to take control of what was printed on it but eventually the cat was out of bag. The printing press was reproduced all over.

You can find a list of “approved” Bibles for Catholics but what I have not found is Papal approval of anyone having a Bible or reading a Bible. If anyone finds that information let me know. As it is a lot of Catholics do not have Bibles or read Bibles.
 

The Learner

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Well, thank you for your service! View attachment 41223

If it weren't for the gutless politicians we would have won that war... it wasn't the fault of the military guys... same with the Korean war that my old man fought in.
I was in NAM, Prisoneer Recoverly: we brought home around 6,000. When we were in the field, I was always in charge because I kept everyone alive. I could see landmines because of color blindness, had extra senses. I knew what was ahead, where snippers were, when magic carpets were coming and from what direction, when they would get where we were.... I had a standing order, not to kill, just injure. We would remove their weapons, treat them, put them in shade, give them food and water. At the nearest path and road, use rocks to form an arrow with distance to the injured. Decades later, I met some who became US Citezins.
 

Illuminator

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I am very slow to say that I am right and that someone else is wrong... even if I believe that. This something I learned to do some time ago in order to converse with a person without bumping heads or at least not too hard. I am certain that I am wrong about some things. I just do not know what they are. This is why I strive to remain open to God directly or through other people. How can one ever be increased even by God if he has closed his heart and his mind?
It depends on the strength of certain core beliefs. Those who have closed hearts and closed minds have a distinct fear of the truth.
The Christian enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth. This fear may be analyzed on three different levels:

1) that the truth would impose unwanted moral responsibilities on them;
2) that any association with the truth would occasion an air of pretentiousness;
3) that any claim to the truth might expose them to being wrong.

They prefer freedom from moral responsibility, absence of any “holier than thou” attitude and exemption from the possible embarrassment of being in error. Their fears, however, take them from the very light and meaning they long for, and plunge them into a dark void were they are trapped by a misery of their own making. Their flight from the truth is also an entrance into a world of gloom.

These three fears are ill fated, as well as ill founded. First of all, truth is our only avenue to real freedom. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” John 8:32

Ignorance may at times be blissful, but it is never illuminating. St. Augustine once remarked that he had met many people who had been deceived, but never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn. Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment. The truth about ourselves awakens us to our moral responsibilities, but we need this awakening in order to become whom we truly are, to advance toward our destiny, to build a meaningful life. We should welcome the truth that illuminates our moral responsibilities with the same enthusiasm that a person who is lost in the woods and welcomes a compass and a map.

Secondly, the fear that any discovery of truth would make us pretentious is also counterproductive. Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.
And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

Thirdly, there is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn. Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment.
 

Illuminator

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Indeed, and our God leads people to knowledge, but it starts with faith. I believe that when faith is finally gone it will have been replaced by knowledge.

I believe that God has absolute knowledge. Did Jesus as man live by faith as we do... or did he live by knowledge? Either way, he was always following his Father's will. If we can do that, [and have we not been given the Holy Spirit to make it possible?] cannot our faith become knowledge?
Faith is one of 3 inseparable cardinal virtues, (faith, hope love) and knowledge is a gift of the spirit, depending on the context.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice[a]; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.[b]
Faith doesn't produce knowledge. I had to wrestle to answer your question.
 

Illuminator

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In Acts 1, the Eleven Apostles and about 120 others gathered to elect a successor (NOT just a replacement) to Judas. Peter quotes the Psalm in verse 21:

Acts 1:20
‘Let another take his office.’

The Greek word used here for “office” is “Episkopay”, which means “Bishopric”.
Peter was not only the first Bishop of Rome – he was one of the first Bishops, period, along with the other Eleven.

In Against Heresies, the 2nd century document from Irenaeus, he lists all of the Bishops of Rome (Popes) from his own day all the way back to Peter,100 years earlier.

The Church was already being called "The Catholic Church", by the end of the FIRST century as we read in the following document, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, by Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch. He was Peter's successor in Antioch and a lifelong student of the Apostle John:


Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Finally – the only “inventions” that YOU need to be concerned with are all of the 16th century inventions your Protestant Fathers concocted . . .

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.


What a mess . . .
Post #555 caused (name withheld) to have fits, as evidenced by the non-replies.
 
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Windmillcharge

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FALSE.
The Epistles were READ ALOUD to the people, who were mostly illiterate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20estimated%20that,3%20percent%20or%207.7%20percent.
It has been estimated that at least 90 percent of the Jewish population of Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE could merely write their own name or not write and read at all, or that the literacy rate was either about 3 percent or 7.7 percent.

https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/social-science/education/concepts/illiteracy/history#:~:text=Throughout%20most%20of%20history%20most,end%20of%20the%2014th%20cent.

Throughout most of history most people have been illiterate. In feudal society, for example, the ability to read and write was of value only to the clergy and aristocracy. The first known reference to “literate laymen” did not appear until the end of the 14th century. Illiteracy was not seen as a problem until after the invention of printing in the 15th cent. The first significant decline in illiteracy came with the Reformation”
Your information is out of date.
Please follow and read this article:-https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200910110828.htm
 

BreadOfLife

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Your information is out of date.
Please follow and read this article:-https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200910110828.htm
That’s great – but it’s still just a theory.
The fact is that there is NO evidence that the congregants of the recipients of the Epistles were all walking around with their own copies.

Besides, the argument was that the Catholic Church kept the Bible away from the “common people” which is nonsense. It has been explained, ad nauseam, that the prohibitions of the Counsil of Touloouse were issued because of the spurious, erroneous and otherwise heretical translations being passed around.
 

RedFan

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Your information is out of date.
Please follow and read this article:-https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200910110828.htm
I can't follow the logic. A dozen writers worked on a particular text and THEREFORE the national literacy rate was stupendous? Sorry, I am not convinced.

I don't have a clue how many Jews in Israel could read and write six centuries before Christ. And after reading this science daily article, I still don't.
 
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amadeus

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It depends on the strength of certain core beliefs. Those who have closed hearts and closed minds have a distinct fear of the truth.
The Christian enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world.
2th 2:10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2th 2:11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
A person, a follower of Christ, that is, needs to love the truth, which is Jesus, even though his understanding or vision of Jesus may be incomplete. When does a person understand Him completely?
In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth. This fear may be analyzed on three different levels:

1) that the truth would impose unwanted moral responsibilities on them;
2) that any association with the truth would occasion an air of pretentiousness;
3) that any claim to the truth might expose them to being wrong.

They prefer freedom from moral responsibility, absence of any “holier than thou” attitude and exemption from the possible embarrassment of being in error. Their fears, however, take them from the very light and meaning they long for, and plunge them into a dark void were they are trapped by a misery of their own making. Their flight from the truth is also an entrance into a world of gloom.
Do not some, or even many, who claim the label of Christian try to live this way? They seem to confuse the ability to choose the right Way with doing pretty much what they want in this world of men. We do indeed as believers still have that freedom, which I would call freewill... but should we be so freely exercising it? For me, serving God is surrendering my will to His. What is God's will? It is only equal to mine if I have surrendered completely to Him in all things. Who has done that?
These three fears are ill fated, as well as ill founded. First of all, truth is our only avenue to real freedom. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” John 8:32
Amen!
Ignorance may at times be blissful, but it is never illuminating. St. Augustine once remarked that he had met many people who had been deceived, but never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.
People want that which appeals to them. Unfortunately, this too often includes people who have encountered our Lord:

Mt 13:22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Jas 1:8A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things.
While this is so, sometimes the hunger for the things of this world are too attractive and a person does not know where or how to ask for help.
No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn. Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).
People are lazy. Some are too lazy to truly seek the Truth that really matters while they still have time.
When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment. The truth about ourselves awakens us to our moral responsibilities, but we need this awakening in order to become whom we truly are, to advance toward our destiny, to build a meaningful life. We should welcome the truth that illuminates our moral responsibilities with the same enthusiasm that a person who is lost in the woods and welcomes a compass and a map.
...our destiny... according "me" is what too many people seek. Not seeing clearly, they confuse it with their destiny according to God. It comes back to our will versus God's will. How does one make his own will equal to God's will? By surrender...?

Mt 26:39... not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Secondly, the fear that any discovery of truth would make us pretentious is also counterproductive. Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Joh 8:28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.
And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

Thirdly, there is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.
Sometimes it is best to be quiet even when we know something we could say. Jesus remained silent when his physical life was in jeopardy.

Ec 3:1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

Ec 3:7...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
How did Jesus know? How do we know? God always knows! Are we hearing from Him?

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn. Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment.
 

amadeus

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Faith is one of 3 inseparable cardinal virtues, (faith, hope love) and knowledge is a gift of the spirit, depending on the context.

1co 13:13And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice[a]; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.[b]
Faith doesn't produce knowledge. I had to wrestle to answer your question.
Faith perhaps does not produce knowledge, but when our faith in finally finished, what do we have?

Heb 12:2looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The Father does not live by faith but certainly by knowledge. Is that not what all of us are to approach?
1jo 3:2Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
 
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Illuminator

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Your information is out of date.
Please follow and read this article:-https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200910110828.htm
I read it.
"A minimum of 12 authors of 18 inscriptions, out of the population of Judah which is estimated to have been no more than 120,000 people, it means that literacy was not the exclusive domain of a handful of royal scribes in Jerusalem. The quartermaster from the Tel Arad outpost also had the ability to read and appreciate them."​
It proves literacy in a small group in a narrow time frame, not widespread literacy.

Turning to hard historical evidence for ancient Israel, Bar-Ilan notes that the Talmud allows for towns where only one person could read in the synagogue (Soferim 11:2). Since all synagogues that have been discovered can accommodate more than 50 people, we are probably looking at literacy rates, in these places, at about 1%. When this figure is tied to the fact that the land of Israel was 70% rural, and only 10% was “highly” urban, one can take into account all the sundry factors and crunch the numbers: “it is no exaggeration to say that the total literacy rate in the Land of Israel… was probably less than 3%.” Most of this 3% would have comprised wealthy Jews living in the major cities.​