Possibly, but equally possible is rather then his flesh staying in the tomb and reuniting with his spirit before they found the tomb was empty that the tomb was empty as soon as the stone wass rolled to seal it.
Assumptions are certainly often shown to be wrong. Jesus' resurrection
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
Jesus's predicted return to the Mount of Olives as set forth in Zechariah 14:4-5 was going to take place after Judah and Jerusalem had been besieged (Zechariah 12:2). Zechariah 12-14 was giving the prophecy regarding the AD 66-70 siege of Jerusalem. Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives in that AD 70 year. Daniel 12:11-13 had given the actual 1,335 countdown to the very day that resurrection event would take place.
Mary more than likely died in the early 40's. (This can be deduced from comparing other scriptural records which I won't get into here). At any rate, Mary was dead before the AD 70 bodily resurrection took place, so in her resurrected, glorified immortal body she was taken to heaven at that point with Christ and the rest of the bodily-resurrected saints. Those Matthew 27:52-53 saints who had already been resurrected on the same day as Jesus were also taken to heaven with Christ in AD 70. Those "First-fruits" saints had remained alive on the earth in their glorified bodies until that time, and were raptured along with the rest that returned to heaven with Christ.
Those first two bodily resurrection events took place just as predicted, and we today are currently waiting on the third resurrection event at the final judgment.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
There is another possibility that just came to my mind. I think you are closer to being right.
Either...Jesus is dead and taken to the tomb and it will be for 3 days because Jesus is the one who said He would be in the heart of the earth 3 days and Nights like Jonah was in the belly of the great fish.
Which means either his spirit went to the heart of the earth leaving His body behind or He went complete with His body.
Before the stone was rolled to cover it.
But there is one other possibility that may have happened... That could be quite likely.
Closer to what you said....
Jesus' spirit may have gone to the heart of the earth leaving His body behind in the tomb
sealed over with the stone.
And since Mark 16:4, Luke 24:2, and John 20:1 state outright that the stone had been rolled away from the tomb prior to the women’s arrival. And the wording in Mathew suggests
the tomb could have been opened prior to Mary arriving there also.
So it is possible that If Jesus' spirit had left 3 days before he may well have returned for the body before Mary and whoever arrived so he could leave by the open tomb.
As 3 accounts say it was open when they got there.
Thank you for you reply for it got me thinking and this makes total sense.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
When Jesus rose from the tomb He has His resurrection body so didn't need the stone to be rolled away because by then rnd of the day He had entered into a locked room with the disciples. So He, walked through the wall!
I tink the Angel rolled the stone away for the women to come see that He had risen.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Daniels prophecy --where did you get the starting point for 1335?
Let me give you an example: Here is the 70 weeks prophecy--which add up to 490 days, but are 490 years:
Has a historical starting date.
It doesn't matter when Mary died. It cannot be proven that anyone was resurrected in 70 AD.I looked at Zech--didn't see what you are taking about. Sorry.
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What is it about you down under people????
What do YOU think Jesus meant whe HE siad. in Luke 23:46
From the king James as I am willing to bet that is the translation you read... this is what Jimmy's men translated
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
NASB95 states
46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I entrust My spirit.” And having said this, He [a]died.
Greek interlinear says
Father into [the] hands of You I commit the Spirit of Me.
How, in all that is Holy can you not understand this?
What exactly do you think Jesus' spirit is?
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still dead in your sins according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:17 Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.
Luke 24:37-43
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
John 20:27-28
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1Timothy 2:5) post ascension.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.
1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
1 Corinthians 15:14-18
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.
In Heaven.... Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).
His Body.....Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Philippians 3:20-21
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.
If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.
hope this helps !!!
Luke 24:37-43
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
John 20:27-28
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1Timothy 2:5) post ascension.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.
1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
1 Corinthians 15:14-18
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.
In Heaven.... Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).
His Body.....Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Philippians 3:20-21
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.
If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
continued:
1 Corinthians 15:38-41
But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
A summary of the bodies mentioned above are all PHYSICAL in nature
1- people
2- seed
3-animals
4-birds
5-fish
6- heavenly - the sun, moon and stars
7- earthly- all inclusive 1-5
So as we can see BODY above are all PHYSICAL in nature.
These Greek Lexicons agree that soma is physical just like Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 15
Every Greek Lexicon and Dictionary agrees that the Resurrected BODY(SOMA) is physical and not immaterial.
Strong's Concordance
sóma: a body
Original Word: σῶμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sóma
Phonetic Spelling: (so'-mah)
Definition: a body
Usage: body, flesh;
HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body.
NT:4983) is "the body as a whole, the instrument of life," whether of man living, e. g., Matt 6:22, or dead, Matt 27:52; or in resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:44; or of beasts, Heb 13:11; of grain, 1 Cor 15:37-38; of the heavenly hosts, 1 Cor 15:40.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)
More proof soma is physical
as in Greek writings from Hesiod down, the living body: — of animals, James 3:3; — of man: τό σῶμα, absolutely, Luke 11:34; Luke 12:23; 1 Corinthians 6:13, etc.; ἐν σώματι εἶναι, of earthly life with its troubles, Hebrews 13:3; distinguished from τό αἷμα, 1 Corinthians 11:27; τό σῶμα and τά μέλη of it, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 14-20; James 3:6; τό σῶμα the temple of τό ἅγιον πνεῦμα, 1 Corinthians 6:19; the instrument of the soul, τά διά τοῦ σωματου namely, πραχθεντα, 2 Corinthians 5:10; it is distinguished — from τό πνεῦμα, in Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 1 Corinthians 6:20 Rec.; ; James 2:26 (4 Macc. 11:11); — from ἡ ψυχή, in Matthew 6:25; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:22 (Wis. 1:4 Wis. 8:19f; 2 Macc. 7:37 2Macc. 14:38; 4 Macc. 1:28, etc.); — from ἡ ψυχή and τό πνεῦμα together, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (cf. Song of the Three, 63); σῶμα ψυχικόν and σῶμα πνευματικόν are distinguished, 1 Corinthians 15:44 (see πνευματικός, 1 and ψυχικός, a.); τό σῶμα τίνος, Matthew 5:29; Luke 11:34; Romans 4:19; Romans 8:23 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)), etc.; ὁ ναός τοῦ σωματου αὐτοῦ, the temple which was his body, John 2:21; plural, Romans 1:24; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Ephesians 5:28; the genitive of the possessor is omitted where it is easily learned from the context, as 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 4:10; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Hebrews 10:22(23), etc.; τό σῶμα τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν, the body of our humiliation (subjective genitive), i. e. which we wear in this servile and lowly human life, opposed to τό σῶμα τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ (i. e. τοῦ Χριστοῦ), the body which Christ has in his glorified state with God in heaven, Philippians 3:21; διά τοῦ σωματου τοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the death of Christ's body, Romans 7:4; διά τῆς προσφοράς τοῦ σωματου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the sacrificial offering of the body of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 10:10; τό σῶμα τῆς σαρκός, the body consisting of flesh, i. e. the physical body
Thayers Greek Lexicon
hope this helps !!!
1 Corinthians 15:38-41
But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
A summary of the bodies mentioned above are all PHYSICAL in nature
1- people
2- seed
3-animals
4-birds
5-fish
6- heavenly - the sun, moon and stars
7- earthly- all inclusive 1-5
So as we can see BODY above are all PHYSICAL in nature.
These Greek Lexicons agree that soma is physical just like Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 15
Every Greek Lexicon and Dictionary agrees that the Resurrected BODY(SOMA) is physical and not immaterial.
Strong's Concordance
sóma: a body
Original Word: σῶμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sóma
Phonetic Spelling: (so'-mah)
Definition: a body
Usage: body, flesh;
HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body.
NT:4983) is "the body as a whole, the instrument of life," whether of man living, e. g., Matt 6:22, or dead, Matt 27:52; or in resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:44; or of beasts, Heb 13:11; of grain, 1 Cor 15:37-38; of the heavenly hosts, 1 Cor 15:40.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)
More proof soma is physical
as in Greek writings from Hesiod down, the living body: — of animals, James 3:3; — of man: τό σῶμα, absolutely, Luke 11:34; Luke 12:23; 1 Corinthians 6:13, etc.; ἐν σώματι εἶναι, of earthly life with its troubles, Hebrews 13:3; distinguished from τό αἷμα, 1 Corinthians 11:27; τό σῶμα and τά μέλη of it, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 14-20; James 3:6; τό σῶμα the temple of τό ἅγιον πνεῦμα, 1 Corinthians 6:19; the instrument of the soul, τά διά τοῦ σωματου namely, πραχθεντα, 2 Corinthians 5:10; it is distinguished — from τό πνεῦμα, in Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 1 Corinthians 6:20 Rec.; ; James 2:26 (4 Macc. 11:11); — from ἡ ψυχή, in Matthew 6:25; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:22 (Wis. 1:4 Wis. 8:19f; 2 Macc. 7:37 2Macc. 14:38; 4 Macc. 1:28, etc.); — from ἡ ψυχή and τό πνεῦμα together, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (cf. Song of the Three, 63); σῶμα ψυχικόν and σῶμα πνευματικόν are distinguished, 1 Corinthians 15:44 (see πνευματικός, 1 and ψυχικός, a.); τό σῶμα τίνος, Matthew 5:29; Luke 11:34; Romans 4:19; Romans 8:23 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)), etc.; ὁ ναός τοῦ σωματου αὐτοῦ, the temple which was his body, John 2:21; plural, Romans 1:24; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Ephesians 5:28; the genitive of the possessor is omitted where it is easily learned from the context, as 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 4:10; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Hebrews 10:22(23), etc.; τό σῶμα τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν, the body of our humiliation (subjective genitive), i. e. which we wear in this servile and lowly human life, opposed to τό σῶμα τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ (i. e. τοῦ Χριστοῦ), the body which Christ has in his glorified state with God in heaven, Philippians 3:21; διά τοῦ σωματου τοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the death of Christ's body, Romans 7:4; διά τῆς προσφοράς τοῦ σωματου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the sacrificial offering of the body of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 10:10; τό σῶμα τῆς σαρκός, the body consisting of flesh, i. e. the physical body
Thayers Greek Lexicon
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Spiritual does not mean immaterial as those who reject the physical, bodily Resurrection of Christ
Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB
Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.
And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.
pneumatikos: spiritual
Original Word: πνευματικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pneumatikos
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo-mat-ik-os')
Definition: spiritual
Usage: spiritual.
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon- belonging to the Divine Spirit; Used 26 times in the N.T.
a. in reference to things; emanating from the Divine Spirit, or exhibiting its effects and so its character: χάρισμα, Romans 1:11; εὐλογία, Ephesians 1:3; σοφία καί σύνεσις πνευματικῇ (opposed to σοφία σαρκικῇ, 2 Corinthians 1:12; ψυχική, James 3:15), Colossians 1:9; ᾠδαί, divinely inspired, and so redolent of the Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:16; (Ephesians 5:19 Lachmann brackets); ὁ νόμος (opposed to a σάρκινος man), Romans 7:14; θυσίαι, tropically, the acts of a life dedicated to God and approved by him, due to the influence of the Holy Spirit (tacitly opposed to the sacrifices of an external worship), 1 Peter 2:5; equivalent to produced by the sole power of God himself without natural instrumeutality, supernatural, βρῶμα, πόμα, πέτρα, 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 ((cf. 'Teaching' etc. 10, 3 [ET])); πνευματικά, thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims, ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul, 1 Corinthians 2:13 (on which see συγκρίνω, 1); τά πνευματικά, spirithal gifts — of the endowments called χαρίσματα (see χάρισμα), 1 Corinthians 12:1; 1 Corinthians 14:1; universally, the spiritual or heavenly blessings of the gospel, opposed to τά σαρκικά, Romans 15:27; (1 Corinthians 9:11).
b. in reference to persons; one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 2:15 (cf. ); (); ; Galatians 6:1; οἶκος πνευματικός, of a body of Christians (see οἶκος, 1 b. at the end), 1 Peter 2:5. (The word is not found in the O. T. (cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3).
Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body
1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;
1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.
Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.
Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Corinthians 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;
2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed (no body) but indeed with a heavenly body (like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.
Spiritual is used to describe these physical things:
the spiritual man
he who is spiritual
the spiritual rock
the spiritual food
the spiritual drink
the spiritual songs
the spiritual house
the spiritual things
the spiritual body
hope this helps,
Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB
Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.
And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.
pneumatikos: spiritual
Original Word: πνευματικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pneumatikos
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo-mat-ik-os')
Definition: spiritual
Usage: spiritual.
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon- belonging to the Divine Spirit; Used 26 times in the N.T.
a. in reference to things; emanating from the Divine Spirit, or exhibiting its effects and so its character: χάρισμα, Romans 1:11; εὐλογία, Ephesians 1:3; σοφία καί σύνεσις πνευματικῇ (opposed to σοφία σαρκικῇ, 2 Corinthians 1:12; ψυχική, James 3:15), Colossians 1:9; ᾠδαί, divinely inspired, and so redolent of the Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:16; (Ephesians 5:19 Lachmann brackets); ὁ νόμος (opposed to a σάρκινος man), Romans 7:14; θυσίαι, tropically, the acts of a life dedicated to God and approved by him, due to the influence of the Holy Spirit (tacitly opposed to the sacrifices of an external worship), 1 Peter 2:5; equivalent to produced by the sole power of God himself without natural instrumeutality, supernatural, βρῶμα, πόμα, πέτρα, 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 ((cf. 'Teaching' etc. 10, 3 [ET])); πνευματικά, thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims, ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul, 1 Corinthians 2:13 (on which see συγκρίνω, 1); τά πνευματικά, spirithal gifts — of the endowments called χαρίσματα (see χάρισμα), 1 Corinthians 12:1; 1 Corinthians 14:1; universally, the spiritual or heavenly blessings of the gospel, opposed to τά σαρκικά, Romans 15:27; (1 Corinthians 9:11).
b. in reference to persons; one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 2:15 (cf. ); (); ; Galatians 6:1; οἶκος πνευματικός, of a body of Christians (see οἶκος, 1 b. at the end), 1 Peter 2:5. (The word is not found in the O. T. (cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3).
Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body
1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;
1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.
Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.
Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Corinthians 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;
2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed (no body) but indeed with a heavenly body (like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.
Spiritual is used to describe these physical things:
the spiritual man
he who is spiritual
the spiritual rock
the spiritual food
the spiritual drink
the spiritual songs
the spiritual house
the spiritual things
the spiritual body
hope this helps,
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Daniel 12:11-13 tells us. He predicted two events that would happen in the same season of time. The "abomination of desolation" would be set up" (which was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in Luke 21:20). This event would take place in the same season when a daily sacrifice would be taken away. These two events took place together back in AD 66.
After Passover in AD 66, Eleazar the governor of the temple eliminated the daily sacrifice that until then had been given for the empire of Rome and the Roman emperor. Eleazar also forbad the offerings given by any foreigner for the temple. This was tantamount to declaring war on Rome, since the agreement was that Israel could practice Judaism as a state-sanctioned religion only if they continued to offer a daily sacrifice in the temple for the welfare of the Roman empire and its emperor.
As a response to this insult and the breaking of Israel's treaty with Rome, Cestius Gallus and the Roman army was sent and arrived at Jerusalem in October of AD 66. This was during the same season in which that daily sacrifice had been taken away. Counting down Daniel's 1,290 days from the time Cestius Gallus's troops were about to undermine the temple wall in Jerusalem (the "abomination standing where it ought not"), the Roman army arrived once more under Titus in AD 70, just after Passover had begun in Jerusalem. Another 45 days after that, Pentecost day arrived for the besieged city of Jerusalem. Those like Daniel who had "waited" and came to the end of that 1,335th day were blessed with a bodily resurrection event with Christ's return to the Mount of Olives to gather all His resurrected saints and return to heaven with them.
The abomination of desolation occurred in AD70. I have no problem with that.
The daily sacrifice was taken away by Jesus death in the middle of the week. "He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." That was not a prophecy about Eleazar. If you look at the timeline. which I posted, you'll see that. At Jesus death, the veil was rent in twain, --no more distance between God and man. The sacrifices were no good any longer because the Sacrifice was made.
The time of trouble in Daniel 12 has not occurred. I still don't see where you get the 2nd 3rd resurrection thing. Jesus never said He is coming again and again. He said He is coming again. AD 34 begins the times of the Gentiles, and the people of God are both Jews and Greeks. Michael represent all of god's people.
And as for folks getting blessed at the end of the 1335 days, well, Dan 12 verse 2 talks about those who were not so blessed. So do you believe the dead sleep, or the current folk who are dying are still here,, or are they automatically going to heaven or the wicked to eternal punishment.
What do you do with this? 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the second coming--and the voice of the archangel is Michael. Nowhere does it speak or a 3rd resurrection.
This is about as convoluted as anything I've ever heard. I don't mean to appear rude, but this in non-sensical.
Maybe you can explain what "spiritual bones, still physical in nature" are-- but I doubt it.
HMMM
That is good I guess. I just was thinking of 1 Cor 15: 35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [k]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
This is the passage I would have pointed to as well.
But what of the bones? The "life" is in the seed. The seed is just a covering. The seed dies and is buried in the ground.... the life lives on.
And the life that remains or returns takes on a new covering-- it doesn't return to the former one. You are looking for the bones/body when you should be seeking the life. They are not the same.
In Jude 1- there is a mention of Satan arguing with Michael about the body of Moses-- where is it? No one knows. Deut 34 says--
So Moses, the servant of the LORD, died there in the land of Moab as the LORD had said. He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab near Beth Peor, but no one knows his exact burial place to this very day.
It kind of sounds like God did. And no one knows where Jesus' bones are either.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I mean still solid in nature. Like our human bones. I'll try again.
Spiritual bones are of the spiritual realm but are still solid in feel like in the natural realm. Jesus had this in His resurrection body. He said, touch me to see if I am spirit. Have you anything to eat? I am flesh and bones....
But He could also walk through walls like a spiritual being. He popped in on the disciples a couple times and prolly scared them to Life! Spiritual bodies are not etherial.
And how is this possible when we know that spirits cant do a whole lot without a body?
Well, maybe it used to be so of spirits, but let me ask you this, Did we become the body of Christ? What do you think that means?
The word became flesh...right? So Jesus has it. And was glorified into an even better body and when we see Him we will know Him as He is for we will be like Him!
Is that better?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Ok ok, I am just as amazed as to how you interpret.
You want to know how I see it, ok here it is.....please hear. Are you listening?
God made man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7
Are you listening? God didn't give him a spirit, (as in an independent entity) He animated the dust which he had formed into the shape of man with his own life force (spirit. This combination resulted in Man becoming a living soul. He didn't receive a soul, he became one.
On death, the process is reversed....the dust to dust, the life force (spirit) back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7
Jesus was a Man just like us. When he died he went through the same process.
Jesus' spirit is is the life force which animated him...not a seperate conscious entity. His life force went back to God with whom it originated.
Example: A light globe. The glass and element representing the dust; the electricity which animates (turns it on; makes it functional, spirit)
The light produced when the two are combined, representing the soul. Turn the electricity off and the light goes nowhere, it just ceases to exist
Ecclesiastes 12:7 says it clearly......are you hearing?
In your understanding you have presumed that the spirit God gave in the creation process is a seperate conscious entity.
Having said all that, the word 'spirit' can also mean the collective consciousness as in 'the spirit of the football team' or we use the expression, 'the spirit of the times'. Both these expressions are linguistic tools to convey other than a seperate conscious entity.
Yes, I read and heard .
But I am a believer in the tripartite man.
The Bible says that man is a tripartite being with three component parts: body, soul and spirit. The soul is the immaterial part of man that lives on after death and is redeemed by Jesus Christ. The spirit is the divine part of man that gives him life and holiness.
It is our spirit that communicates with God.
Further explanation see
2. Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org
The Christian doctrine of immortality cannot be understood apart from the right conception of the tripartite nature of men. Many think that man is a physical being only. There is a great danger of any man thinking thus of himself. In his desire to satisfy the needs of the body there is the...
Which I will not post any of here for the reasons in my signature, but feel free to read... just not discuss.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Plato's_theory_of_soul
Plato's theory of soul - Wikipedia
The tripartite soul. The Platonic soul consists of three parts which are located in different regions of the body: the logos (λογιστικόν), or logistikon, located in the head, is related to reason and regulates the other parts. the thymos (θυμοειδές), or thumoeides, located near the chest region, is related to spirit.Man is a Tripartite Being
There are two passages from the Bible that clearly establish the fact that man has three parts.A. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
This verse clearly states that man has three separate, distinct parts; the distinction maybe slight but they exist nevertheless.
B. Hebrews 4:12
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
Although some people teach that the soul and spirit are two words that mean the same thing, this verse definitely tells us that they are divisible. While it’s true that the terms soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scriptures, there are other passages where this is impossible.
If you have gotten this far... let us just agree to disagree for I know that no one ever changed their preconceived beliefs based on anything from the Holy Bible or interpretations.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You say you have heard however your conclusion indicates you have missed the point in favour of a presumption of which you quote Plato and hope to substantiate by scripture.....which I say is misapplied/ misunderstood.Yes, I read and heard .
But I am a believer in the tripartite man.
The Bible says that man is a tripartite being with three component parts: body, soul and spirit. The soul is the immaterial part of man that lives on after death and is redeemed by Jesus Christ. The spirit is the divine part of man that gives him life and holiness.
It is our spirit that communicates with God.
Further explanation see
2. Man A Trinity (Spirit, Soul, Body) | Bible.org
The Christian doctrine of immortality cannot be understood apart from the right conception of the tripartite nature of men. Many think that man is a physical being only. There is a great danger of any man thinking thus of himself. In his desire to satisfy the needs of the body there is the...bible.org
Which I will not post any of here for the reasons in my signature, but feel free to read... just not discuss.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Plato's_theory_of_soul
Plato's theory of soul - Wikipedia
The tripartite soul. The Platonic soul consists of three parts which are located in different regions of the body: the logos (λογιστικόν), or logistikon, located in the head, is related to reason and regulates the other parts. the thymos (θυμοειδές), or thumoeides, located near the chest region, is related to spirit.
Man is a Tripartite Being
There are two passages from the Bible that clearly establish the fact that man has three parts.
A. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
This verse clearly states that man has three separate, distinct parts; the distinction maybe slight but they exist nevertheless.
B. Hebrews 4:12
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
Although some people teach that the soul and spirit are two words that mean the same thing, this verse definitely tells us that they are divisible. While it’s true that the terms soul and spirit are used interchangeably in Scriptures, there are other passages where this is impossible.
If you have gotten this far... let us just agree to disagree for I know that no one ever changed their preconceived beliefs based on anything from the Holy Bible or interpretations.
I do not care.
is worth as much as your 2 cents.Believe as you want, and I will also...
But while you are at it....Ancient Origins offered this teaser to get me to pay for a subscription... but I wont...
But what can you tell us about this..?
You will also find a feature on a very unique Australian town, where 80 percent of residents live underground. Plus, we examine the bizarre and unexplained phenomenon of raining objects, from frogs to fish, snakes, rocks, and even money! No matter how you observe or relive ancient traditions, we hope you will enjoy this issue and join us in celebrating the season of new beginnings.
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