Assumptions are certainly often shown to be wrong. Jesus' resurrection

[quietthinker]

I do not care. View attachment 41480 is worth as much as your 2 cents.

Believe as you want, and I will also...

But while you are at it....Ancient Origins offered this teaser to get me to pay for a subscription... but I wont...

But what can you tell us about this..?


You will also find a feature on a very unique Australian town, where 80 percent of residents live underground. Plus, we examine the bizarre and unexplained phenomenon of raining objects, from frogs to fish, snakes, rocks, and even money! No matter how you observe or relive ancient traditions, we hope you will enjoy this issue and join us in celebrating the season of new beginnings.

1....not caring tells the story!

2....Decrease in pressure lifts even aeroplanes off the ground. If you are not aware of this and you are interested, checking out the principles of aero dynamics will inform you.......so, what goes up must come down, that's involves the law of gravity.......just in case you thought the law was done away with.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The abomination of desolation occurred in AD70. I have no problem with that.

That is a little bit off target from what I wrote. The "abomination of desolation" of "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" which Christ warned His disciples about FIRST occurred in October of AD 66. When Cestius Gallus's soldiers rested their shields on the temple wall in testudo-fashion and began the process of undermining the temple wall, this was the abomination of desolation "standing where it ought not". A pagan Gentile attack on the temple property. The day of this attack began the 1,335 day countdown to the next resurrection and Christ's second coming return.

The daily sacrifice was taken away by Jesus death in the middle of the week. "He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." That was not a prophecy about Eleazar. If you look at the timeline. which I posted, you'll see that. At Jesus death, the veil was rent in twain, --no more distance between God and man. The sacrifices were no good any longer because the Sacrifice was made.

Of course Jesus took away the need for the sacrifice and oblation when He established the New Covenant in His blood. But that didn't mean the Jews ceased offering their "weak and beggarly" daily sacrifices. It was one of those obsolete daily sacrifices for the Roman empire and the emperor which Eleazar removed; an offense that threw the gauntlet in Rome's face and began the Roman / Jewish war in AD 66.

The time of trouble in Daniel 12 has not occurred. I still don't see where you get the 2nd 3rd resurrection thing. Jesus never said He is coming again and again. He said He is coming again. AD 34 begins the times of the Gentiles, and the people of God are both Jews and Greeks. Michael represent all of god's people.

When Daniel's visions were given, those prophecies were related to his own ethnic people and what would become of them before God "shattered the power of the holy people" (Daniel 12:7). By the time their power was shattered, the angel said that all of Daniel's visions would have been finished. ALL of them. Including the unduplicated time of trouble and the resurrection of both righteous and wicked in Daniel 12:2. These happened back in the AD 66-70 period, culminating in Christ second coming return to gather all the resurrected saints.

And as for folks getting blessed at the end of the 1335 days, well, Dan 12 verse 2 talks about those who were not so blessed. So do you believe the dead sleep, or the current folk who are dying are still here,, or are they automatically going to heaven or the wicked to eternal punishment.

The spirits of any righteous who died in the Lord after Jesus's own First resurrection event in AD 33 "from henceforth" were present with the Lord at their physical death. That is why Paul wrote "absent from the body...present with the Lord" for the believers who were dying back then. The same continues to be true today for the spirits of believers who die in the Lord. Since AD 70's resurrection, all who die in the Lord are waiting in anticipation for the next bodily resurrection in the future.

The wicked are not so. Their spirits after death are reserved for the final appearance before the throne in judgment, in which their soul and spirit are destroyed. Their physical bodies never rise from the grave, but are left forever to disintegrate into the dust. They are "like the chaff which the wind drives away".

Pentecost day in AD 70 was the first judgment of the dead which included both just and unjust. It was the same resurrection which Daniel 12:2 wrote about, in which his own people would participate - some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. The same type of judgment will be duplicated in our future for a final time.

What do you do with this? 1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That was the Pentecost day AD 70 resurrection which Paul was predicting. Those "alive and remaining" ones were those who had already been made alive by a resurrection process (like Lazarus, Dorcas, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc.). These had "remained" on the earth in the days of the early church. They were waiting for the rapture to come when all the resurrected saints would be gathered together and meet the Lord together in the air before returning to heaven with Him.

Nowhere does it speak or a 3rd resurrection.

You should familiarize yourself with the OT agricultural harvest seasons in Israel, and the "early" and "latter" rainy seasons. The bodily resurrection events duplicate this pattern exactly. James 5:7-8 spoke about God being like a patient "husbandman" who was going to wait with long patience for the "precious fruit of the earth" until both seasons of early and latter rains had brought the (three) harvests of the year to completion.

The "First-fruits" of the barley harvest in Israel at Passover was fulfilled with the "First resurrection" of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints. This was just after the "latter rains" had ceased. Five months of dry weather then followed.

The next Pentecost wheat harvest in Israel was fulfilled in the resurrection event at Pentecost in AD 70 which harvested all the "wheat" - AND the "tares" which were burned up in the judgment.

The next Feast of Tabernacles harvest of ingathering all those multiple crops at the close of Israel's agricultural year was just before the November "early rains" set in. We are waiting for this last, third "harvest" of the just and the unjust in our future, at a time of year when the Feast of Tabernacles would have been celebrated.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

1....not caring tells the story!

2....Decrease in pressure lifts even aeroplanes off the ground. If you are not aware of this and you are interested, checking out the principles of aero dynamics will inform you.......so, what goes up must come down, that's involves the law of gravity.......just in case you thought the law was done away with.

You never answered my reply #40 when I asked you...

But what can you tell us about this..?

You will also find a feature on a very unique Australian town, where 80 percent of residents live underground. Plus, we examine the bizarre and unexplained phenomenon of raining objects, from frogs to fish, snakes, rocks, and even money! No matter how you observe or relive ancient traditions, we hope you will enjoy this issue and join us in celebrating the season of new beginnings.

So I shall inform the readers that this town is

The Australian town where people live underground

In one unusual outback town, everything is subterranean – from churches to campsites. As the world heads for 2.7C (4.9F) of global warming, should we be heading underground?

www.bbc.com

Coober Pedy, an opal mining town with a population of around 2,500 people.

And is quite interesting to read about, if you are interested.

 

[quietthinker]

You never answered my reply #40 when I asked you...

But what can you tell us about this..?

You will also find a feature on a very unique Australian town, where 80 percent of residents live underground. Plus, we examine the bizarre and unexplained phenomenon of raining objects, from frogs to fish, snakes, rocks, and even money! No matter how you observe or relive ancient traditions, we hope you will enjoy this issue and join us in celebrating the season of new beginnings.

So I shall inform the readers that this town is

The Australian town where people live underground

In one unusual outback town, everything is subterranean – from churches to campsites. As the world heads for 2.7C (4.9F) of global warming, should we be heading underground?

www.bbc.com

Coober Pedy, an opal mining town with a population of around 2,500 people.

And is quite interesting to read about, if you are interested.

What is your point Rella? I am familiar with Coober Pedy

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

What is your point Rella? I am familiar with Coober Pedy

I had asked you that because when Ancient Origins was selling their magazine, or trying to and I saw this headline I thought perhaps you could explain things....

You did not so I looked it up and I only posted it cause since I initially mentioned it someone might have been curious.

The headline was from Ancient Origins... I did not know it was current.

Now I wont bother you again... but suggest you put me on ignore to be sure.

 

[Mr E]

I mean still solid in nature. Like our human bones. I'll try again.

Spiritual bones are of the spiritual realm but are still solid in feel like in the natural realm. Jesus had this in His resurrection body. He said, touch me to see if I am spirit. Have you anything to eat? I am flesh and bones....

But He could also walk through walls like a spiritual being. He popped in on the disciples a couple times and prolly scared them to Life! Spiritual bodies are not etherial.

And how is this possible when we know that spirits cant do a whole lot without a body?

Well, maybe it used to be so of spirits, but let me ask you this, Did we become the body of Christ? What do you think that means?

The word became flesh...right? So Jesus has it. And was glorified into an even better body and when we see Him we will know Him as He is for we will be like Him!

Is that better?

I appreciate you trying.

The two are not the same and as such, one is not the other. Think of it like this-- Your body is your body. It is not 'the same' as your spirit. Your spirit is "in" your body, but it is not physical "like" your body beyond the fact that it's contained within a physical body. The spirit doesn't have it's own spiritual bones-- it is contained within physical bones, or it is completely uncontained.

A bottle of wine is a good comparison. The bottle is not the wine. Break the bottle and the wine remains, though not contained. But apart from the bottle, the wine doesn't 'change state' and take on a spiritual bottle.... it depends on a physical bottle.

 

[MA2444]

I appreciate you trying.

The two are not the same and as such, one is not the other. Think of it like this-- Your body is your body. It is not 'the same' as your spirit. Your spirit is "in" your body, but it is not physical "like" your body beyond the fact that it's contained within a physical body. The spirit doesn't have it's own spiritual bones-- it is contained within physical bones, or it is completely uncontained.

A bottle of wine is a good comparison. The bottle is not the wine. Break the bottle and the wine remains, though not contained. But apart from the bottle, the wine doesn't 'change state' and take on a spiritual bottle.... it depends on a physical bottle.

I didn't say they was the same. I said the spiritual body is solid and physical with flesh and bones.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.../KJV

 

[Mr E]

I didn't say they was the same. I said the spiritual body is solid and physical with flesh and bones.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.../KJV

Spiritual is spiritual. Physical is physical.

Spiritual is not physical. Physical is not spiritual.

If it's spiritual-- it's not solid and physical (flesh and bone).

Don't make this hard (pun intended)

 

[quietthinker]

I had asked you that because when Ancient Origins was selling their magazine, or trying to and I saw this headline I thought perhaps you could explain things....

You did not so I looked it up and I only posted it cause since I initially mentioned it someone might have been curious.

The headline was from Ancient Origins... I did not know it was current.

Now I wont bother you again... but suggest you put me on ignore to be sure.

I don't put anybody on ignore Rella.....and I don't answer everyone's questions ......and each has a different reason. That said, I don't remember your specific one or if I even saw it.

I desire continued progressive and intelligent dialog and live in hope that the other party has the same aspirations.

 

[Jay Ross]

I desire continued progressive and intelligent dialog and live in hope that the other party has the same aspirations.

Is not this rather presumptuous on your part to expect members of an internet forum, like this one, to have the level of laughing matter that would make them intelligent enough to even have a sensible conversation with anyone on this forum. There are too many Johnson type people who are members.

 

[Davy]

Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (put for flesh, the "image of the earthy") inherit incorruption (put for the spirit body, the "image of the heavenly").

What about Lord Jesus' flesh body then? Could it ascend to Heaven as flesh and inherit the kingdom of God? NO, not as flesh! Otherwise it would have made Apostle Paul a liar because of 1 Cor.15:50.

Lord Jesus' flesh body was 'transfigured' to the "image of the heavenly", which is the body type of that other dimension of existence. And Jesus' heavenly body image retained the marks of His crucifixion.

Apostle Peter, when speaking of Jesus at His resurrection going to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison", revealed Jesus' flesh body being 'quickened' (or transfigured) for that purpose...

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
KJV

The above shows Jesus' flesh body was "quickened by the Spirit" which is how... He went and preached to those spirits in prison, in haides.

In Matthew 17, we find when Jesus spoke with Elijah and Moses, His flesh body was 'transfigured'. Then afterwards changed back.

That will not happen for us.
When our flesh body dies, it is simply cast off, buried and immediately begins breaking down back to the earthly elements where it came from (Ecclesiastes 12:5-7). Our flesh body is only a type of shell that our spirit with soul lives in. Apostle Paul showed this in 2 Corinthians 5. Like Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh and flesh; and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

We are NOT going to get new flesh bodies, our spiritual body that we already have (per 2 Cor.5) will simply be revealed in that other dimension of existence, literally. That is the glorious body of the future that Apostle Paul was talking about, not new flesh.

 

[quietthinker]

Is not this rather presumptuous on your part to expect members of an internet forum, like this one, to have the level of laughing matter that would make them intelligent enough to even have a sensible conversation with anyone on this forum. There are too many Johnson type people who are members.

I live in hope not expectation.

 

[Jay Ross]

I live in hope not expectation.

We all live in hope and expectations of improvement in the laughing matter of the members.

 

[Davy]

If one believes as written in Matthew 17 that Jesus' flesh body was 'transfigured' when He spoke with Elijah and Moses, then why wouldn't one believe that Jesus' dead body in the tomb could be 'transfigured'?

Matt 17:1-3
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.
KJV

Think about the above for a moment. There's only 2 separate dimensions of existence, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one which is being shown above with Jesus being transfigured and Elijah and Moses appearing.

We know Elijah did not die, and was caught up to Heaven. But Moses did die, because Jude 9 reveals that Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. So Moses appearing above means he was in his resurrected type body.

And we know per 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh cannot go to Heaven. The heavenly order is non-flesh, non-earthy. Thus Elijah had to have been in a heavenly type body also.

And in order for Jesus to speak with them, that Scripture shows His flesh body having been temporarily transfigured to the heavenly type body. Some might ask, "can God really do that?" Sure He can. So the believer might want to take some time to understand why that witnessed event was written in His Word, preserved for us. That event would not be included if it were not in order to teach us about the difference between the two separate dimensions of existence.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We know Elijah did not die, and was caught up to Heaven.

The LXX account of Elijah and the whirlwind says that "Elijah was caught up AS IT WERE into heaven" (not that he was taken in God's presence yet, but merely transported through the skies to another part of the country). We know that Elijah never ascended to heaven and God's presence because John 3:13 tells us that no man had ascended to heaven as of that point in time.

Elijah's transport through the skies by the whirlwind took him to another part of the country where almost 10 years later, he wrote the letter in 2 Chron. 21:12-15 to King Jehoram, listing the king's sins and predicting the manner of his death. Elijah died just as any other person.

 

[Davy]

The LXX account of Elijah and the whirlwind says that "Elijah was caught up AS IT WERE into heaven" (not that he was taken in God's presence yet, but merely transported through the skies to another part of the country). We know that Elijah never ascended to heaven and God's presence because John 3:13 tells us that no man had ascended to heaven as of that point in time.

Elijah's transport through the skies by the whirlwind took him to another part of the country where almost 10 years later, he wrote the letter in 2 Chron. 21:12-15 to King Jehoram, listing the king's sins and predicting the manner of his death. Elijah died just as any other person.

BALONEY ABOVE BRETHREN.

Elijah was... caught up to the HEAVENLY DIMENSION, as written... and that did NOT mean just the 'sky' around the earth!

2 Kings 2:11
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
KJV

2 Kings 2:1
2 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
KJV

After Elijah was caught up to HEAVEN, he is seen no more in Scripture, but only spoken of in reference. So where did he go? To some pagan monastery in China to live in recluse per some illiterate occultist view??

No, Elijah was taken up INTO the Heavenly dimension, which is not the same thing as the SKY atmosphere around the earth!

You orthodox Jews have a hard time understanding about that Heavenly dimension don't you? You tend to think that our Heavenly Father and His angels simply live in today's sky atmosphere around the earth, which is a primitive caveman-like superstition of carnal fleshy thinking!

So go take your Atheism somewhere else.

 

[3 Resurrections]

BALONEY ABOVE BRETHREN.

Elijah was... caught up to the HEAVENLY DIMENSION, as written... and that did NOT mean just the 'sky' around the earth!

Do you need me to quote 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 in the LXX for this? (In the LXX it is IV Kings.)

"And it came to pass, when the Lord was going to take Eliu with a whirlwind AS IT WERE into heaven, that Eliu and Elisaie went out of Galgala...And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind AS IT WERE into heaven."

To all appearances from Elisha's perspective below, it looked as if Eliu were being taken to heaven and God's presence, but we know that can't be the case because John 3:13 contradicts that assumption. NO MAN had yet ascended up to heaven where God dwelt, as of that time when John 3:13 was written. The first time the temple in heaven was ever opened for mankind to enter is found in Revelation 15:8, which was at the end of the 7 angels' plagues being poured out. And besides, there is that letter written by Elijah while still living on earth some 10 years after his whirlwind transport through the atmospheric heavens (not the heaven where God dwells). This letter was not written in heaven and sent to earth to King Jehoram. Neither was it written before Elijah's whirlwind transport into the skies.

So go take your Atheism somewhere else.

You orthodox Jews

Huh? I've been a Baptist church member for many decades, and still retain a strong Reformed background from my distant childhood. Not sure where you get atheism or orthodox Judaism out of my scripture quotes - ALL of which must reconcile with each other.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

BALONEY ABOVE BRETHREN.

Elijah was... caught up to the HEAVENLY DIMENSION, as written... and that did NOT mean just the 'sky' around the earth!

You are not suggesting Elijah was actually caught up to be with God are you?

Question... where was Enoch when he wrote the book of Enoch, or able to tell what he saw? , as there are parts that are obviously from another party. Oh wait. You did not read it did you. Your loss.

 

[Davy]

You are not suggesting Elijah was actually caught up to be with God are you?

Question... where was Enoch when he wrote the book of Enoch, or able to tell what he saw? , as there are parts that are obviously from another party. Oh wait. You did not read it did you. Your loss.

Only stating what God's Word says. Either you accept that Elijah was 'literally' caught up to heaven, or you do not, and that means whether you believe God's Word as written... or not.

Evidently, based on your loaded type of question, it shows you do NOT believe God's Word as written.

2 Kings 2:11
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Do you need me to quote 2 Kings 2:1 & 11 in the LXX for this? (In the LXX it is IV Kings.)

"And it came to pass, when the Lord was going to take Eliu with a whirlwind AS IT WERE into heaven, that Eliu and Elisaie went out of Galgala...And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind AS IT WERE into heaven."

To all appearances from Elisha's perspective below, it looked as if Eliu were being taken to heaven and God's presence, but we know that can't be the case because John 3:13 contradicts that assumption. NO MAN had yet ascended up to heaven where God dwelt, as of that time when John 3:13 was written.

You don't understand about the two different dimensions of existence at all. Instead, you only dwell in your 'fleshy' understanding.

According to Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, if... our earthly tabernacle, or house, meaning our flesh body, were dissolved, we still HAVE (present tense) a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the... HEAVENS! Did you read that last word there?

2 Cor 5:1-8
5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

That "eternal in the heavens" does NOT simply mean living in the sky atmosphere around the earth. It means literally the Heavenly dimension. Your spirit and soul are attached together and are OF... that Heavenly dimension, even while connected to and living in your flesh body via the "silver cord" of Ecclesiastes 12:5-7. When that "silver cord" that keeps that spirit/soul connected to the flesh body is severed at flesh death, the spirit-soul goes back to God Who gave it, and that is about your 'person' and your spirit body. Your flesh instead goes back to the earth where it came from, and is just a shell, not your person.


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

"For in this we groan" is Paul expressing how our spirit/soul part seeks to be released from the flesh.

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Without a flesh body, what then shall we be clothed with? Our spirit body which is from HEAVEN.

5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Do you 'walk' by Faith, or by sight? If you don't understand about that other body of spirit with our soul, which is of the Heavenly dimension, then you are not walking by Faith. You instead have defaulted to a 'fleshy' understanding, which is about only things that you can 'see' ("by sight"), which means measuring everything based on this perishable earthly dimension.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

Paul made that very plain for those in Christ. For in Christ Jesus, who walk by Faith, which is pointing to Hebrews 11...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

The fact that the things seen of this earthly dimension exists, and did not create itself, is proof of that other dimension of Spirit where God dwells.

Thus John 3:13 is about Christ proclaiming only He as God The Son has come down from Heaven as God, and also ascended to Heaven as God. That is a 'special' relationship with The Father that none other FLESH BORN man has. Only Jesus of Nazareth fits that Profile. It is actually another proof of Jesus proclaiming Himself as part of The Godhead.