Assumptions are certainly often shown to be wrong. Jesus' resurrection

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

This could go into a few other forums but being specific on Jesus I have placed here.

Something I have never once given a thought to ... no that is a lie, only once a couple of years ago... is

When Jesus was crucified and buried in his tomb.... Then early on that Sunday morning there was nothing in the tomb except the cloths that were used before the proper caring for the dead body is did Jesus ' mortal bones actually resurrect with Hoim and arrive ultimately in heaven?

Ours do not. Ours go into the ground and eventually we will be given a "NEW" glorified bodies.

When Mary did not recognize Jesus and when she did he said John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.

And I had assumed that was because he did not want a mortal touch to taint His body at this point as he was transitioning???

Anyway... I just saw a book that I was going to buy and then asked myself if it will truly show anything real.

The Jesus Discovery: The New Archaeological Find That Reveals the Birth of Christianity​

The Jesus Discovery shows how a recent major archeological discovery in Jerusalem is revolutionizing our understanding of Jesus and the earliest years of Christianity.

The Jesus Discovery is the story of a stunning new discovery that provides the first physical evidence of Christians in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus and his apostles.

In 2010, using a specialized robotic camera, authors Tabor and Jacobovici explored a previously unexcavated tomb in Jerusalem from around the time of Jesus. They made a remarkable discovery—two ossuaries, or bone boxes, one carved with the earliest known image of Jonah; the other displaying a reference to resurrection. Since the newly discovered ossuaries can be reliably dated to before 70 AD, it is possible that whoever was buried in this tomb knew Jesus and heard him preach. In addition, the newly examined tomb is in close proximity to the so-called Jesus Family Tomb, and its discovery increases the likelihood that the “Jesus Family Tomb” is, indeed, the real tomb of Jesus of Nazareth.

From the book...

So......... Waste of money, or worth the time to see what they are talking about.

A preview is here:

Amazon.com

Buy at amazon, of course.

Amazon.com

 

[3 Resurrections]

Ours do not. Ours go into the ground and eventually we will be given a "NEW" glorified bodies.

This is not true. The believers, just like Christ, are given "CHANGED" bodies - not an exchange which would leave our old body forms in the dirt to rot. The old body form for the saints is changed into an incorruptible state which is immortal and will never die again, just like Christ...

"Who shall CHANGE our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body..." (Philippians 3:21).

 

[Randy Kluth]

This could go into a few other forums but being specific on Jesus I have placed here.

Something I have never once given a thought to ... no that is a lie, only once a couple of years ago... is

When Jesus was crucified and buried in his tomb.... Then early on that Sunday morning there was nothing in the tomb except the cloths that were used before the proper caring for the dead body is did Jesus ' mortal bones actually resurrect with Hoim and arrive ultimately in heaven?

Ours do not. Ours go into the ground and eventually we will be given a "NEW" glorified bodies.

When Mary did not recognize Jesus and when she did he said John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.

And I had assumed that was because he did not want a mortal touch to taint His body at this point as he was transitioning???

Anyway... I just saw a book that I was going to buy and then asked myself if it will truly show anything real.

The Jesus Discovery: The New Archaeological Find That Reveals the Birth of Christianity​

The Jesus Discovery shows how a recent major archeological discovery in Jerusalem is revolutionizing our understanding of Jesus and the earliest years of Christianity.

The Jesus Discovery is the story of a stunning new discovery that provides the first physical evidence of Christians in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus and his apostles.

In 2010, using a specialized robotic camera, authors Tabor and Jacobovici explored a previously unexcavated tomb in Jerusalem from around the time of Jesus. They made a remarkable discovery—two ossuaries, or bone boxes, one carved with the earliest known image of Jonah; the other displaying a reference to resurrection. Since the newly discovered ossuaries can be reliably dated to before 70 AD, it is possible that whoever was buried in this tomb knew Jesus and heard him preach. In addition, the newly examined tomb is in close proximity to the so-called Jesus Family Tomb, and its discovery increases the likelihood that the “Jesus Family Tomb” is, indeed, the real tomb of Jesus of Nazareth.

So......... Waste of money, or worth the time to see what they are talking about.

amazon, of course.

Amazon.com

It really depends on your interest in archeology. It isn't likely to be anything remotely like the search for the holy grail. Lots of these kinds of discoveries can help us understand the biblical era, and maybe even confirm a few biblical facts. But not much more.

Years ago I bought a book on the search for Noah's ark. I now feel stupid for doing so. I can find much more confirmation of God's truths by obeying His word. Sometimes we have been told tortured accounts of biblical events, and will never be able to confirm stories so buried in the past and sometimes misconstrued.

My view of Jesus' resurrection is that he was raised up and healed in his old body. He asked Mary not to *detain* him, since he wanted to go to heaven to obtain his glorified body. His old body was not tainted by sin, and he was qualified to be restored from death in his old body, having never sinned.

By contrast we are condemned to death in our old bodies, since we are sinners. We may be restored in new sinless bodies by the grace of Christ's atoning death on our behalf. When Jesus ascended into heaven, he likely disposed of his old body in an instant, just like we will be resurrected into new bodies in an instant.

Elijah's friends wanted to do a search for his body went he was caught up into heaven. It was a vain exercise, since the body was gone and probably vaporized. Our earthly bodies cannot exist in the sky!

 

[MA2444]

Something I have never once given a thought to ... no that is a lie, only once a couple of years ago... is

When Jesus was crucified and buried in his tomb.... Then early on that Sunday morning there was nothing in the tomb except the cloths that were used before the proper caring for the dead body is did Jesus ' mortal bones actually resurrect with Hoim and arrive ultimately in heaven?

You ever wonder why Jesus folded the cloth instead of wadding it up? It's like in a restaurant. If you have to go to the bathroom and will be back, you fold the napkin. But if your done, then they know they can clear the table! I wonder...

Jesus did not resurrect with mortal anything. He was Transformed upon resurrection into a spiritual body. At the rapture, we get transformed in the twinkling of an eye and our bodies put on immortality. A spiritual body.

 

[3 Resurrections]

My view of Jesus' resurrection is that he was raised up and healed in his old body. He asked Mary not to *detain* him, since he wanted to go to heaven to obtain his glorified body.

Christ's body leaving through the still-sealed walls of the tomb (leaving it empty of anything but the burial cloths) WAS His glorified body already. He was at that moment of His resurrection in possession of His deathless, immortal, incorruptible body form which is still in heaven today and will never die again. And that body had flesh and bones, just as He told His disciples.

As "joint heirs with Christ", we saints today can expect the very same type of glorified, immortalized, incorruptible body at the next resurrection event in the future. We will have changed flesh and bones rendered immortal, the ability to levitate, travel at the speed of thought, change the appearance of our forms if desired, and with the ability to consume food and beverages if we wish - just as Christ did in His bodily-resurrected state.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

This is not true. The believers, just like Christ, are given "CHANGED" bodies - not an exchange which would leave our old body forms in the dirt to rot. The old body form for the saints is changed into an incorruptible state which is immortal and will never die again, just like Christ...
was thinking of 1 Cor
"Who shall CHANGE our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body..." (Philippians 3:21).

HMMM

That is good I guess. I just was thinking of 1 Cor 15: 35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [k]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

You ever wonder why Jesus folded the cloth instead of wadding it up? It's like in a restaurant. If you have to go to the bathroom and will be back, you fold the napkin. But if your done, then they know they can clear the table! I wonder...

Jesus did not resurrect with mortal anything. He was Transformed upon resurrection into a spiritual body. At the rapture, we get transformed in the twinkling of an eye and our bodies put on immortality. A spiritual body.

OK, then His bones were transformed? There would be none on earth to bury.

Then why do they keep trying to tie these ossuary things to Him?

 

[MA2444]

OK, then His bones were transformed? There would be none on earth to bury.

Then why do they keep trying to tie these ossuary things to Him?

Yes His bones were transformed and became spiritual bones, but still physical in nature.

Well, there was 3 days & nights that He was in the heart of the earth before He was resurrected. So they did need a tomb. At least for 3 days!

Hey I had a thought. Jesus said it is finished on the cross and He meant His work. He was the last passover lamb. But! it's not like He wont be back, so He folded the napkin! That does make sense.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christ's body leaving through the still-sealed walls of the tomb (leaving it empty of anything but the burial cloths) WAS His glorified body already. He was at that moment of His resurrection in possession of His deathless, immortal, incorruptible body form which is still in heaven today and will never die again. And that body had flesh and bones, just as He told His disciples.

The assumption you are making here is that a mortal body *cannot* move in a supernatural dimension. But is this true? Is there precedent for people still in their mortal bodies functioning in a supernatural way?

Even our newly redeemed lives indicate that we move in a supernatural dimension, though this had already been evident through faith under the OT dispensation.

John 3.6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Rom 8.10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Gal 5. 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

What about Enoch and Elijah--were they removed supernaturally while still in their mortal bodies? Of course. They had not yet received glorified bodies when they were taken up into heaven to be with God.

What about Philip when he was "translated" away from the Ethiopian eunuch--was he still in his mortal body, though redeemed, when he was taken away by the Spirit? He was "translated" while still in his mortal body.

What about Paul when he was taken up into the "3rd heaven" to see visions of the Lord--was he still in his mortal body? Yes, Paul had not died, and he still has not received his immortal, glorified body.

There have been many supernatural healings that have taken place on behalf of still-mortal bodies. Sampson was able to do supernatural exploits in his still-mortal body. Why is it that Jesus' abilities, as the Son of God, should be limited by his still-mortal body?

As "joint heirs with Christ", we saints today can expect the very same type of glorified, immortalized, incorruptible body at the next resurrection event in the future. We will have changed flesh and bones rendered immortal, the ability to levitate, travel at the speed of thought, change the appearance of our forms if desired, and with the ability to consume food and beverages if we wish - just as Christ did in His bodily-resurrected state.

I have no idea what our new bodies will be capable of, or what they will "normally" do on the New Earth? These are highly speculative matters! The question before us is, what can moral bodies be enabled to do at present, even before we receive glorified bodies?

I don't think you can prove your case that mortal bodies cannot do things like travel through walls. Jesus appeared to do just that.

You just assume that he had already been glorified, but my assumption is the opposite. Jesus said he had to go and complete a process. I think that was his physical glorification. Why would his glorified body have the scars of a crucifixion?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Christ's body leaving through the still-sealed walls of the tomb (leaving it empty of anything but the burial cloths) WAS His glorified body already. He was at that moment of His resurrection in possession of His deathless, immortal, incorruptible body form which is still in heaven today and will never die again. And that body had flesh and bones, just as He told His disciples.

As "joint heirs with Christ", we saints today can expect the very same type of glorified, immortalized, incorruptible body at the next resurrection event in the future. We will have changed flesh and bones rendered immortal, the ability to levitate, travel at the speed of thought, change the appearance of our forms if desired, and with the ability to consume food and beverages if we wish - just as Christ did.

OK...

I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but is applicable here.

We have talked about the resurrected Saints that came out of their graves at the crucifixion and tearing of the veil.

Obviously there would be no bones anywhere for archeologist to discover these days.

But who else do you believe might have died and gone to heaven and have their glorified bodies?

The RCC believes Mary did as well as all their venerated saints.Yet relics of saints would disprove your theory so I say the RCC likely is wrong.

But... would you think that Mary is laying in a grave or bone box somewhere awaiting the end?
Wiki has this for the Jesus Family Tomb

• Ossuary #80/505 Maria – written in Aramaic script, but a Latin form of the Hebrew name "Miriam" ("Mary")[3]

So, you may be right, but I will reserve my opinions for more research

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Yes His bones were transformed and became spiritual bones, but still physical in nature.

Well, there was 3 days & nights that He was in the heart of the earth before He was resurrected. So they did need a tomb. At least for 3 days!

You are not of the opinion Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?

He told us that Matt 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So he could not be there and still in the tomb.

Hey I had a thought. Jesus said it is finished on the cross and He meant His work. He was the last passover lamb. But! it's not like He wont be back, so He folded the napkin! That does make sense.

Somewhat, ok

 

[Cassandra]

Yes His bones were transformed and became spiritual bones, but still physical in nature.

Well, there was 3 days & nights that He was in the heart of the earth before He was resurrected. So they did need a tomb. At least for 3 days!

Hey I had a thought. Jesus said it is finished on the cross and He meant His work. He was the last passover lamb. But! it's not like He wont be back, so He folded the napkin! That does make sense.

Of course it does, the napkin was folded to show He will come again!

 

[3 Resurrections]

What about Enoch and Elijah--were they removed supernaturally while still in their mortal bodies? Of course. They had not yet received glorified bodies when they were taken up into heaven to be with God.

These two were not taken up into heaven to be with God at those times. That is because John 3:13 says that, as of that time, "no man hath ascended up to heaven..." Elijah was only taken "as it were into heaven" (in the LXX), and was transported to another location on earth where he wrote that letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chron. 22:12-15. This was some 10 year later after Elijah's whirlwind transport into the skies. Elijah died as every other man has died.

Enoch was never said to be taken into heaven. Scripture only says that "the Lord took him". Just where Enoch was taken, we are not told, but it certainly could not have been into heaven with God, since John 3:13 disproves that idea. The first time that any glorified, resurrected humanity is allowed into heaven is after the 7th trumpet in Rev. 15:8. It says there that "no man was able to enter the temple till the 7 plagues of the 7 angels were fulfilled." That also included Enoch and Elijah and anyone else as well.

What about Philip when he was "translated" away from the Ethiopian eunuch--was he still in his mortal body, though redeemed, when he was taken away by the Spirit? He was "translated" while still in his mortal body.

No, Philip was never "translated" that he should not see death. The Spirit caught him away from the Ethiopian eunuch, and Philip was "found at Azotus" after that. This was the same kind of transport that Elijah experienced to another location on earth.

What about Paul when he was taken up into the "3rd heaven" to see visions of the Lord--was he still in his mortal body? Yes, Paul had not died, and he still has not received his immortal, glorified body.

Paul was not the one caught up into the 3rd heaven (either in the flesh or out of it, Paul didn't know). It was the other man that Paul was boasting about with whom Paul had become acquainted with, some 14-plus years before he wrote that 2 Cor. 12:1-5 account. I believe this man to have been John who wrote Revelation that Paul had come to know back in the early 40's. John was given visions of heavenly things such as what the 7 thunders uttered, which it was forbidden him to write down (Rev. 10:4). Paul was boasting about John - not himself. And John was not bodily caught up bodily into heaven either, but saw visions of that realm, as other prophets had seen before.

I have no idea what our new bodies will be capable of, or what they will "normally" do on the New Earth? These are highly speculative matters!

It's not altogether speculative. Whatever scripture records that Christ was able to do in his glorified body which emerged from the tomb, we also will be able to do in our own bodily-resurrected state.

You just assume that he had already been glorified, but my assumption is the opposite. Jesus said he had to go and complete a process. I think that was his physical glorification. Why would his glorified body have the scars of a crucifixion?

No, this is not my assumption. Christ said the Spirit would be given after Christ was glorified (John 7:39). And Christ breathed the Spirit into the disciples on the night after His resurrection in John 20:22, telling them "Receive ye the Holy Spirit". That in itself indicates that Christ was already in His glorified body of flesh and bones which they were told to handle that night.

Christ could choose to display the signs of His crucifixion or not, at His discretion. He was able to alter the appearance of His form at will (Mark 16:12). On the morning after He arose, His body form had no crucifixion marks at all, because He had to ascend to His Father that morning and "offer Himself without spot to God". After that spotless, glorified form and Jesus's blood sacrifice had been accepted by God, when Christ then returned to earth again that morning, He could alter His appearance to include crucifixion holes. By this means, the disciples' weak faith could be confirmed that it was Christ Himself.

 

[3 Resurrections]

now this has been discussed elsewhere, but is applicable here.

We have talked about the resurrected Saints that came out of their graves at the crucifixion and tearing of the veil.

Obviously there would be no bones anywhere for archeologist to discover these days.

But who else do you believe might have died and gone to heaven and have their glorified bodies?

The RCC believes Mary did as well as all their venerated saints.Yet relics of saints would disprove your theory so I say the RCC likely is wrong.

But... would you think that Mary is laying in a grave or bone box somewhere awaiting the end?

No, Mary's actual bones will not be found. Nor any other of the saints' bones from Creation forward who had lived and died before the AD 70 bodily resurrection. Christ resurrected them all and took them with Him back to heaven from the Mount of Olives location at His AD 70 bodily return.

Now, as for the wicked dead, their physical bodies do not rise to life again. They are never given immortality and incorruptibility. So if there are any bodily remains found today that can be dated prior to the AD 70 resurrection, these belong to the wicked dead whose bodies are left to disintegrate into the dust. Only their spirit and soul are resurrected to stand before God in the judgment. It's called a "resurrection to damnation", because God destroys the spirit and soul of the wicked in the judgment process.

Remember, any ossuaries found can hold multiple sets of bones from varied individuals. As in the Caiaphas ossuary, which holds the bones of two infants, two teenage boys, an adult woman, and a 60-year-old man.

I find that particular tomb discovery in the Peace Forest most interesting. This was an undisturbed tomb chamber, with 12 ossuaries found in it. Six of those ossuaries were said to be "looted", (no bones inside). Six still had bones, including the most ornate one belonging to Caiphas' family. It wasn't grave robbers that "looted" the six empty ossuaries. It was Christ who resurrected those individuals who were saints and took them to heaven with Him in AD 70.

 

[Cassandra]

.Christ resurrected them all and took them with Him back to heaven from the Mount of Olives location at His AD 70 bodily return.

Where are you getting this stuff?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where are you getting this stuff?

Straight from scripture. All of it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

These two were not taken up into heaven to be with God at those times. That is because John 3:13 says that, as of that time, "no man hath ascended up to heaven..."

Only Jesus could "ascend" into heaven. Sin-contaminated mortals could only be "transported," or "taken" into heaven. The Apostle John clearly was taken up to heaven to see visions in the book of Revelation. So here I'm making a distinction between sin-infected mortals being able to do supernatural things, and sinless Jesus being able to do supernatural things in his mortal body. They did not require immortality to be able to do supernatural things.

Elijah was only taken "as it were into heaven" (in the LXX), and was transported to another location on earth where he wrote that letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chron. 22:12-15. This was some 10 year later after Elijah's whirlwind transport into the skies. Elijah died as every other man has died.

Enoch was never said to be taken into heaven. Scripture only says that "the Lord took him". Just where Enoch was taken, we are not told, but it certainly could not have been into heaven with God, since John 3:13 disproves that idea. The first time that any glorified, resurrected humanity is allowed into heaven is after the 7th trumpet in Rev. 15:8. It says there that "no man was able to enter the temple till the 7 plagues of the 7 angels were fulfilled." That also included Enoch and Elijah and anyone else as well.

No, Philip was never "translated" that he should not see death.

Who is talking about being "taken so as to not see death?" I'm just talking about whether or not there is a necessity that Jesus be mortal in order to travel through walls, or do supernatural things. You haven't proven this at all.

It's not altogether speculative. Whatever scripture records that Christ was able to do in his glorified body which emerged from the tomb, we also will be able to do in our own bodily-resurrected state.

That statement proves nothing in regard to our question. Mortal human beings have been able to do supernatural things. Jesus rose from the dead in his old body, just as Lazarus rose from the dead in his old body.

Being able to go through a wall or be supernaturally transported does not require a new glorified body either. Philip was transported supernaturally, just as Jesus was transported supernaturally through a wall.

No, this is not my assumption. Christ said the Spirit would be given after Christ was glorified (John 7:39). And Christ breathed the Spirit into the disciples on the night after His resurrection in John 20:22, telling them "Receive ye the Holy Spirit". That in itself indicates that Christ was already in His glorified body of flesh and bones which they were told to handle that night.

No that doesn't indicate anything of the sort. To be able to transmit the Holy Spirit may have only required that Jesus pay the legal cost for our inheritance 1st--nothing is said about Jesus having to be physically glorified 1st. It may be that Jesus had to go to heaven to be physically glorified before sending the Spirit at Pentecost, however.

Christ could choose to display the signs of His crucifixion or not, at His discretion.

Sounds like you're trying to argue a point without real evidence? The lack of evidence for a glorified body is Jesus' statement that he had to ascend to heaven. Also, when we have a glorified body described in 1 Cor 15, it sounds very different than how Jesus appeared immediately after his resurrection.

 

[Cassandra]

Straight from scripture. All of it.

What about Jesus and 70 AD and the Mount of Olives?
And Mary's bones or lack of them are nor Scriptural. Some folks were resurrected when Jesus was.

 

[quietthinker]

Assumptions are certainly often shown to be wrong. Jesus' resurrection​

Assumptions! ahhhh, assumptions! How we try to join the dots amazes me again and again....some even shock......and where have our assumptions come from?

I don't think assuming is a problem. We assume a chair will support us when we sit on it. I think it becomes a problem when we sacralise our assumptions, particularly when it comes to spiritual matters. When certain assumptions become sacred, we work from a questionable premise. Theological edifices built around them using selective quotes from the scriptures become impregnable in our understanding. This incremental process changes how we see and disables the ability to arrive at any objectively accurate conclusion.

 

[MA2444]

You are not of the opinion Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?

He told us that Matt 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So he could not be there and still in the tomb.

Why not? He died (in the flesh) on the cross which means His Spirit left His flesh body. He went to the earth in spirit.