Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

[St. SteVen]

Darn you, now you got me wondering why "The Law of Moses" has the article, but "Prophets and Psalms" does not.

Prophets and Psalms don't need it. Whereas, "law" and "the Law" (the books) need clarification. (which one?)
The whole point of this topic. Ha!

 

[St. SteVen]

That's interesting. I had never taken it to the next step to ask the question:
HOW or WHERE does the Law and Prophets bear winess/testify that the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law?

Reminded me of this.

Acts 17:2-3 NIV
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on
three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead.
“This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.

 

[face2face]

Reminded me of this.

Acts 17:2-3 NIV
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on
three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead.
“This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.

Romans 3:21

You cannot perfectly obey the Divine Will, so God's method of justifying us was in a different process than what was bound up in the Law.

It doesn’t mean God abandoned His Law, or that Jesus did not regard the Law because we are told he was raised up by God to magnify it, as per Isaiah 42:21. We cannot ignore the Law, for it is a "schoolmaster" (see Galatians 3:24) which teaches teaching divine principles. But it means that since justification cannot be achieved by obedience to law (See Colossians 2:20-23), because of the "weakness of flesh" (See Romans 8:3), it was to be achieved beyond the ritual of the law.

If Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Mat. 5:17) it must mean Christ can be seen in all the OT teachings.

Can you think of an OT character who optimises the Lord Jesus Christ?

WHERE does the Law and Prophets bear winess/testify that the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law?

Can you find an example in the OT - there are loads of them in every book.

But you can provide one from the Law (Torah) and one from the Prophets if you are inclined.

F2F

 

[Jack]

Galatians 3
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[St. SteVen]

Lambano said:
Darn you, now you got me wondering why "The Law of Moses" has the article, but "Prophets and Psalms" does not.

Prophets and Psalms don't need it. Whereas, "law" and "the Law" (the books) need clarification. (which one?)
The whole point of this topic. Ha!

Any further thoughts on this?
Now that you have had more time to "wonder". - LOL

@Lambano

 

[Chadrho]

Prophets and Psalms don't need it. Whereas, "law" and "the Law" (the books) need clarification. (which one?)
The whole point of this topic. Ha!

Excellent OP. The definite article designates Torah. The definite article by function picks out a particular that is differentiated from all others, as in referring to God as tov theon. See John 1:1- the  logos with tov theon and the logos was theon.

 

[St. SteVen]

Excellent OP. The definite article designates Torah. The definite article by function picks out a particular that is differentiated from all others, as in referring to God as tov theon. See John 1:1- the  logos with tov theon and the logos was theon.

Interesting.
It appears that there are more definite articles there. (ho)
How does ho differ from tov?


/

 

[St. SteVen]

Topic summary:

Definitions: (my working definitions)
1) The law = the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses (the laws, not the books)
2) The Law (capital L) = The Books of the Law, the Pentateuch. the Torah
3) God's law = the universal law written on human conscience (our heart)
4) Christ's law = the commandments Christ gave us

/

 

[Ziggy]

Interesting thing about that.

Romans 2:15 KJV
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

This is why you need the best translation you can get, the most literal, and some study helps to get even more literal.

View attachment 35820
What we can see here is that "accusing" is an Active Voice verb, while "excusing" (here defending) is a Deponent verb, meaning it is either Reflexive or Passive.

Given that the context is a matter of what they are doing, we can know it is Reflexive, the result of the action returns to the one doing the action.

What does this tell us?

Romans 2:15 KJV
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

They accuse others, while excusing themselves. It's not an even scale. Man's conscience is defective, even so, it shows they still have the sense of right and wrong, though they misapply it.

Much love!

So consider on the Sabbath day the man going out and picking up sticks.
They accused him of working on the Sabbath day which was against the law.
But held themselves guiltless for stoning (working) the man they accused.

Jesus asked the men who accused the woman caught in adultery if they should stone her.
He siad he who is without sin cast the first stone. They all walked away because they were all convicted in their own hearts of being sinners.
And Jesus said, neither do I condemn thee.
It wasn't a day of judgment but a day of grace and mercy.
The bible doesn't say what day it was, and I don't think it really matters.
Because Israel had been playing the harlot with other nations and their rules and their gods around them.
Even the High Priest bowed down to Ceasar before he bowed down to God.


Jesus had God's law written in his heart. Israel had Moses law written in a book.

Hugs

 

[Zachariah.]

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

- What's the difference between the law and God's law?

- What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law?


The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined below. Thanks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

Thanks to the NIV for differentiating these two.

Basically a capital L indicates the Books of the Law, as opposed the law itself.
This sheds light on the fulfillment of the law in Matthew 5:17.

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

COMPARE - Jesus explains Matthew 5:17 (note "the Prophets" in verse 17 above)

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in
the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and God's law?

I see God's law as the law God gave us in our human conscience.
(which may be the ONLY positive outcome of the Fall)
The knowledge of good and evil.

This idea is definitely more obscure biblically.
Still, when weighed against the other evidence...

Romans 7:22 NIV
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

COMPARE - What law do those not having the law have?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law
are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when
God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
as my gospel declares.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined above. Thanks.

There is only two forms of law. God's Law and man's law. God's law is eternal, objective, universal, unchanging and enherent. Man's law is none of these things but merely an attempt to play God or at the very least an attempt to guide the moraly decayed aka the blind.

We can also correlate these two forces with our own soul. One that Is saved and conciouse, and the other that is lost and blind. Here we have the lower egoic self and the higher capital S Self which is also known as our True Self.

These two modalities of identity go hand in hand with law. The higher conciouse Self is guided by his or her own conscience and intuition, and it is within this force that we find God's Law. The lower egoic self is unconscious and cannot distinguish the difference between right and wrong. The egoic self makes up his or her own laws to suit his or her own needs and wants. The egoic self is controlling. The saying go's, as above, so below meaning that which reflects within the individual also reflects in the whole. The world today is one large, egoic system of control full of unconscious people who do not know the difference between wrong and right.

And we all wonder why we are losing our rights.

 

[Soyeong]

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

- What's the difference between the law and God's law?

- What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law?


The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined below. Thanks.

Those are different ways of referring to the same thing. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

Thanks to the NIV for differentiating these two.

Basically a capital L indicates the Books of the Law, as opposed the law itself.
This sheds light on the fulfillment of the law in Matthew 5:17.

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

COMPARE - Jesus explains Matthew 5:17 (note "the Prophets" in verse 17 above)

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in
the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

The phrase "the Law and the Prophets" uses capital letters because those are the proper names of sections Scripture like "the Gospels and the Epistles". "The Writings" is also commonly used, which is why the OT is sometimes referred to using the abbreviation TaNaKh (literally 'Instruction' or 'Law'), Nevi'im (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not free from the Law of God, but under the Law of Christ, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of Christ.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and God's law?

I see God's law as the law God gave us in our human conscience.
(which may be the ONLY positive outcome of the Fall)
The knowledge of good and evil.

This idea is definitely more obscure biblically.
Still, when weighed against the other evidence...

In Romans 2:13 and Romans 2:25, it is speaking about the Law of Moses, which is also referred to as the Law of God (Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, Luke 2:22-23).

Romans 7:22 NIV
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

COMPARE - What law do those not having the law have?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law
are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when
God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
as my gospel declares.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Believing Gentiles will by nature be doers of the Law of Moses. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedient to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Paul also taught:

Acts 20:24-25 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.

Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

 

[Wick Stick]

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

- What's the difference between the law and God's law?

- What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law?


The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined below. Thanks.

It depends who's speaking, and when/where.

The Law usually denotes the first 5 books "of Moses," but depending on who is using it... it might be just Deuteronomy, since it was written quite a bit earlier than the other 4 "books of Moses."

The law (lowercase) is usually the law in the place you live (Arizona, USA for me), so it will vary depending on where you live.

God's Law could be the 10 commandments, or could be the 613 mitzvot of Judaism, or could be the Pentateuch... who is saying it?

Christ's Law always seems to refer to the NT commandments, though there is some disagreement as to what those all are.

 

[St. SteVen]

It depends who's speaking, and when/where.

The Law usually denotes the first 5 books "of Moses," but depending on who is using it... it might be just Deuteronomy, since it was written quite a bit earlier than the other 4 "books of Moses."

The law (lowercase) is usually the law in the place you live (Arizona, USA for me), so it will vary depending on where you live.

God's Law could be the 10 commandments, or could be the 613 mitzvot of Judaism, or could be the Pentateuch... who is saying it?

Christ's Law always seems to refer to the NT commandments, though there is some disagreement as to what those all are.

I agree with what you are saying about the Law. (capital L)

The scripture below is the litmus test for definitions. IMHO
Do your definitions work there?

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

/

 

[Johann]

Definitions: (my working definitions)
1) The law = the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses (the laws, not the books)
2) The Law (capital L) = The Books of the Law, the Pentateuch. the Torah
3) God's law = the universal law written on human conscience (our heart)
4) Christ's law = the commandments Christ gave us

The law of Moses which condemns
Law as a principle
The law of faith
The law of sin in the members
The law of the mind
The law of the Spirit and-
The law of Christ.

The law of Moses is NOT abrogated-as most think it to be so.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

It depends who's speaking, and when/where.

The Law usually denotes the first 5 books "of Moses," but depending on who is using it... it might be just Deuteronomy, since it was written quite a bit earlier than the other 4 "books of Moses."

The law (lowercase) is usually the law in the place you live (Arizona, USA for me), so it will vary depending on where you live.

God's Law could be the 10 commandments, or could be the 613 mitzvot of Judaism, or could be the Pentateuch... who is saying it?

Christ's Law always seems to refer to the NT commandments, though there is some disagreement as to what those all are.

BINGO = "Christ's Law always seems to refer to the NT commandments"

The Ten Commandments reside in Christ.

No one has ever fulfilled the Ten Commandments except CHRIST.

John 1:14-17
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
"And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."


Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Wick Stick]

I agree with what you are saying about the Law. (capital L)

The scripture below is the litmus test for definitions. IMHO
Do your definitions work there?

Mostly. Since Paul was a Jew, his (lowercase-local) law was the Mosaic Law.

 

[David in NJ]

The law of Moses which condemns
Law as a principle
The law of faith
The law of sin in the members
The law of the mind
The law of the Spirit and-
The law of Christ.

The law of Moses is NOT abrogated-as most think it to be so.

J.

"The law of Moses is NOT abrogated-as most think it to be so."

YES and NO = Romans ch2

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


YES and NO = Gospel = John 5:44-47

How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”


YES and NO = Galatians 3:19-25

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

YES = the law is good a it came from God

No = the law cannot save anyone

"Say YES to the 'Dress" = Galatians ch3 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."

NO = "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

YES = "For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."

YES = For all of God’s promises have been fulfilled in Christ with a resounding “Yes!” And through Christ, our “Amen” (which means “Yes”) ascends to God for his glory.

YES = Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

NO/YES = 1 Corinthians 9:21
When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ.
But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

Mostly. Since Paul was a Jew, his (lowercase-local) law was the Mosaic Law.

Does this scripture tell us that the books of the Law and Prophets
testify that we are not under local law?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

/

 

[Wick Stick]

Does this scripture tell us that the books of the Law and Prophets
testify that we are not under local law?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

/

No, it just says that God's righteousness can be known without knowing or observing the Law.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Does this scripture tell us that the books of the Law and Prophets
testify that we are not under local law?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

No, it just says that God's righteousness can be known without knowing or observing the Law.

Right.
Nothing about local law.

/