Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

[Lambano]

More evidence that the Law (capital L) is the Books of the Law.

• Matthew 5:17
  “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
  
  
• Matthew 7:12
  So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets....

For the benefit of your readers: Our Jewish cousins divide their Bible up into 3 general categories: Torah, "The Law" (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy); The Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, Micah, and others; and the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs). The categories may be somewhat fluid.

When Jews talk about "The Law", they're almost always referring to the first 5 books of the Bible or the Hebrew Bible in general. Torah.

 

[St. SteVen]

For the benefit of your readers: Our Jewish cousins divide their Bible up into 3 general categories: Torah, "The Law" (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy); The Prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, Micah, and others; and the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs). The categories may be somewhat fluid.

When Jews talk about "The Law", they're almost always referring to the first 5 books of the Bible or the Hebrew Bible in general. Torah.

Thanks, Very informative.
I suppose we need to swing the other direction and talk about "the law" without the capital L.
This refers to "the Book of the Law", but also mentions "the law" three times. Referring the the laws themselves.

Galatians 3:10-12 NIV
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[a] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[b] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

 

[Lambano]

Thanks, Very informative.
I suppose we need to swing the other direction and talk about "the law" without the capital L.
This refers to "the Book of the Law", but also mentions "the law" three times. Referring the the laws themselves.

Ah. Then Paul uses nomos without the article (and I checked the Galatians references in Blue Letter Bible, and yes, they're anarthous) to refer to the contents of Torah, versus with the article refers to The Torah as a unit? That seems to fit the context quite well. I never noticed that subtlety before.

 

[David in NJ]

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

- What's the difference between the law and God's law?

- What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law?


The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined below. Thanks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

Thanks to the NIV for differentiating these two.

Basically a capital L indicates the Books of the Law, as opposed the law itself.
This sheds light on the fulfillment of the law in Matthew 5:17.

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

COMPARE - Jesus explains Matthew 5:17 (note "the Prophets" in verse 17 above)

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in
the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's the difference between the law and God's law?

I see God's law as the law God gave us in our human conscience.
(which may be the ONLY positive outcome of the Fall)
The knowledge of good and evil.

This idea is definitely more obscure biblically.
Still, when weighed against the other evidence...

Romans 7:22 NIV
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

COMPARE - What law do those not having the law have?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law
are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when
God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
as my gospel declares.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

Agree, or disagree? Points outlined above. Thanks.

Excellent OP Brother,

The Law of Christ is contained in Two Commandments = Matthew 22:37-40

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Two for me
Two for you
Keep them Both
Salvation Due
For me and for you
i know it's True

 

[ewq1938]

More evidence that the Law (capital L) is the Books of the Law.

There are no capitals in any of the manuscripts. All letters are the same size. There is no such thing as Law and law and no difference in a translation using a capitol.

 

[St. SteVen]

There are no capitals in any of the manuscripts. All letters are the same size. There is no such thing as Law and law and no difference in a translation using a capitol.

From my posts #31 and #2 regarding Romans 3:21, which adds the definite article not found
in the NT Greek, for clarification between "the law" and "the Law". (the Books)

This is an interesting verse.
Both "the law" and "the Law" (capital L) are used.
A righteousness apart from the law. To which...

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm no expert in NT Greek, but I do see that the definite article (the) is added in English to make "the law" --- νόμου
Whereas the definite article is found in the Greek for "the Law". (capital L) --- τοῦ νόμου

In the OP I explained that "the law" refers to the laws themselves,
whereas "the Law" refers to the Books of the Law.
Which is supported by the full phrase, "the Law and the Prophets".

COMPARE

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Also, adding "the Prophets" after "the Law" makes it obvious. (the books)

It looks like simple translation linguistics to me.

To render the NT Greek "νόμου" as "law", does not translate well into English.
Therefore, "the" is added to make a better translation.
I don't see any spiritual significance in this.
A secular translation would be handled the same way.
Unless I am overlooking something here. Send help. - LOL

There is the NT Greek I was referring to earlier.

 

[Lambano]

There are no capitals in any of the manuscripts. All letters are the same size. There is no such thing as Law and law and no difference in a translation using a capitol.

The oldest manuscripts are in Uncials - all caps. Like CERTAIN POSTERS around here...

Miniscules were invented later.

 

[St. SteVen]

There is no such thing as Law and law and no difference in a translation using a capitol.

If that is true, what does this verse mean?
How could the law testify to a righteousness apart from the law?

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

 

[St. SteVen]

The oldest manuscripts are in Uncials - all caps. Like CERTAIN POSTERS around here...

Miniscules were invented later.

I agree with both you and @ewq1938
But hopefully you can both see the point I am making about "the law" and "the Law". (the Books)

It is a common error (IMHO) to misunderstand Matthew 5:17 as a reference to the laws themselves
rather than the Books of the Law and the Prophets. How do you abolish a Prophet? Or fulfill?

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[St. SteVen]

I agree with both you and @ewq1938
But hopefully you can both see the point I am making about "the law" and "the Law". (the Books)

It is a common error (IMHO) to misunderstand Matthew 5:17 as a reference to the laws themselves
rather than the Books of the Law and the Prophets. How do you abolish a Prophet? Or fulfill?

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Oftentimes I have had posters object to my observation that we are not under the law,
by countering with, "Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law."
Thus stopping short of the full quote. "... the Law or the Prophets..." (the Books)

 

[Lambano]

It is a common error (IMHO) to misunderstand Matthew 5:17 as a reference to the laws themselves
rather than the Books of the Law and the Prophets. How do you abolish a Prophet? Or fulfill?

For that matter, how do you abolish a scroll?

 

[Lambano]

Though I still think you (and the NIV translators) are on to something regarding understanding how Paul uses torah and The Torah with- and without the article, the literary technique of "metonymy" would indicate that Paul (and Jesus) use the phrase "the Law and the Prophets" as a shorthand for "all the scrolls of the Bible and the contents thereof". Maybe "the Bible as a whole" versus the content thereof?

I should probably ask a rabbi. Know any?

 

[ewq1938]

The oldest manuscripts are in Uncials - all caps. Like CERTAIN POSTERS around here...

Miniscules were invented later.

Yes, I know. I was speaking about there being no larger letters vs. smaller letters in a more succinct way.

 

[ewq1938]

If that is true, what does this verse mean?
How could the law testify to a righteousness apart from the law?

This is the better translation:

(ESV) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

I think one would need to be fluent in Greek to fully understand what Paul means but my best guess is he is saying righteousness does not come from law keeping and even the law and prophets actually support that somehow.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree with both you and @ewq1938
But hopefully you can both see the point I am making about "the law" and "the Law". (the Books)

It is a common error (IMHO) to misunderstand Matthew 5:17 as a reference to the laws themselves
rather than the Books of the Law and the Prophets. How do you abolish a Prophet? Or fulfill?

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Prophets means prophecies not the actual people.

 

[St. SteVen]

This is the better translation:

(ESV) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

I think one would need to be fluent in Greek to fully understand what Paul means but my best guess is he is saying righteousness does not come from law keeping and even the law and prophets actually support that somehow.

That's interesting. I had never taken it to the next step to ask the question:
HOW or WHERE does the Law and Prophets bear winess/testify that the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law?

 

[St. SteVen]

@Lambano and @ewq1938
Jesus explains what he meant in Matthew 5:17 after his resurrection.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

 

[ewq1938]

That's interesting. I had never taken it to the next step to ask the question:
HOW or WHERE does the Law and Prophets bear winess/testify that the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law?

I don't know but this might help:

Barnes:

Being witnessed - Being borne witness to. It was not a new doctrine; it was found in the Old Testament. The apostle makes this observation with special reference to the Jews. He does not declare any new thing, but that which was rally declared in their own sacred writings.
By the law - This expression here evidently denotes, as it did commonly among the Jews, the five books of Moses. And the apostle means to say that this doctrine was found in those books; not that it was in the Ten Commandments, or in the Law, strictly so called. It is not a part of “law” to declare justification except by strict and perfect obedience. That it was found “in” those books; the apostle shows by the case of Abraham; Rom. 4; see also his reasoning on Lev_18:5; Deu_30:12-14, in Rom_10:5-11; compare Exo_34:6-7.

 

[Jack]

So many self professed Greek and Hebrew experts, especially when they don't like what God said!

 

[Lambano]

@Lambano and @ewq1938
Jesus explains what he meant in Matthew 5:17 after his resurrection.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Darn you, now you got me wondering why "The Law of Moses" has the article, but "Prophets and Psalms" does not.