Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

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Soyeong

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BINGO = "Christ's Law always seems to refer to the NT commandments"
The NT commands are based on and in accordance with the OT commands. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so what sense does it make to think that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to the example that he set for us to follow? In other words, what grounds do you have to think that the Law of God's word made flesh is something other than or contrary to God's word?

The Ten Commandments reside in Christ.

No one has ever fulfilled the Ten Commandments except CHRIST.
According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so countless people have fulfilled the Ten Commandments including probably you.

John 1:14-17
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
"And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
There is no "but" in the Greek in John 1:17, rather John 1:16 says grace upon grace, so verse 17 is listing one example of grace being added upon another. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law.
 

Jack

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The NT commands are based on and in accordance with the OT commands. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so what sense does it make to think that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to the example that he set for us to follow? In other words, what grounds do you have to think that the Law of God's word made flesh is something other than or contrary to God's word?


According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so countless people have fulfilled the Ten Commandments including probably you.


There is no "but" in the Greek in John 1:17, rather John 1:16 says grace upon grace, so verse 17 is listing one example of grace being added upon another. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law.
Stick with the New Covenant. You might make it to God's eternal Kingdom.
 
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David in NJ

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what sense does it make to think that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to the example that he set for us to follow?
It makes God Sense when you understand the Gospel.
Who met Moses on the Mountain Top to give him the Ten Commandments?

According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so countless people have fulfilled the Ten Commandments including probably you.
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" = only JESUS kept the Law unto PERFECTION

TWO Commandments is BEST - Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
OK let us remove the 'but'.

the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Which one would you choose?
 

Johann

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It makes God Sense when you understand the Gospel.
Who met Moses on the Mountain Top to give him the Ten Commandments?


"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" = only JESUS kept the Law unto PERFECTION

TWO Commandments is BEST - Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”



OK let us remove the 'but'.

the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Which one would you choose?
Are we lawless?
 

David in NJ

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Are we lawless?
Not if we walk in the FIRST TWO

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
 
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Johann

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Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Affirmative.
J.
 
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Jack

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Not if we walk in the FIRST TWO

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Sad to say, MANY in 'Christian' churches don't obey those two.
 
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Soyeong

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"The law of Moses is NOT abrogated-as most think it to be so."

YES and NO = Romans ch2

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Believing Gentiles by nature doing what the Mosaic Law requires is in full support of the Mosaic Law not be abrogated.

YES and NO = Gospel = John 5:44-47

How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Saying that we can't believe Christ's words without believing what Moses wrote is again in full support of what Moses wrote not being abrogated.

YES and NO = Galatians 3:19-25

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promise of a covenant that has already been ratified, so it is also true that the New Covenant does not nullify our need to obey the Mosaic Law in connection with the promise. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law leads us to Christ because it was given to teach us how to know him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can reject everything he taught and go back to being workers of lawlessness. In Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, and being children of Abraham is directly connected to living in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

YES = the law is good a it came from God

No = the law cannot save anyone
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), and our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so there must be an aspect of our salvation from sin that that we are experiencing in the present. So while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed the Mosaic Law, having the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the gift of him saving us from not having that experience. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to experience those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not having that experience.

"Say YES to the 'Dress" = Galatians ch3 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."
If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God has set us free, but Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, God law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

NO = "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this is what it means to be under grace, and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. It would be absurd to interpret that as saying that he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to fall from grace.

YES = "For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love."
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, and in Matthew 22:36-40, he summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so obedience to it is faith working through love. Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 7:19, Paul said that circumcision has no value, but what matters is obeying God's commandments.

YES = For all of God’s promises have been fulfilled in Christ with a resounding “Yes!” And through Christ, our “Amen” (which means “Yes”) ascends to God for his glory.

YES = Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

NO/YES = 1 Corinthians 9:21

When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ.
But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.
Paul used a parallel statement to equate the Law of God with the Law of Christ and the Law of Moses is the Law of God.
 

David in NJ

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Believing Gentiles by nature doing what the Mosaic Law requires is in full support of the Mosaic Law not be abrogated

Gentiles who do this are only obeying TWO Commandments as Told by the LORD Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

This was also the teaching of the Spirit that those who never heard were still able to perceive by the MESSAGE which God gave to the world in His Creation.

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,"
 

David in NJ

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Does anyone know anyone who obeys the Law of Moses? I don't.
i have two Jewish Chabbad rabbis as friends and they do not even keep the Whole Law because the CANNOT..................dwell on that.
 
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Soyeong

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It makes God Sense when you understand the Gospel.
Who met Moses on the Mountain Top to give him the Ten Commandments?
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. It was God who gave the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 5:31-33).

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" = only JESUS kept the Law unto PERFECTION
While only Jesus kept the law perfectly, countless people have fulfilled the law, so fulfilling the law does not require perfect obedience.

TWO Commandments is BEST - Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Jesus was not being asked about which are the only commandments that we should still follow, but rather the existence the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest two. It is contradictory to think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, but not the commandments that hang on them, for example it is contradictory to think that we should love God and our neighbor, but don't need to refrain from committing murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.

OK let us remove the 'but'.

the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Which one would you choose?
The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness in disobedience to it (Acts 3:25-26), so there is no disagreement between following God or following God. Again grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example.

Gentiles who do this are only obeying TWO Commandments as Told by the LORD Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

This was also the teaching of the Spirit that those who never heard were still able to perceive by the MESSAGE which God gave to the world in His Creation.

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,"
The passage says nothing to limit Gentiles to the greatest two commandments. The reason the commands to love God and our neighbor are the greatest two commandments and why all of the other commandments hang on them is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments. What God was instructing the Israelites to do when He gave the greatest two commandments is not different than what Jesus was instructing us to do when he repeated the greatest two commandments.
 
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David in NJ

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. It was God who gave the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 5:31-33).


While only Jesus kept the law perfectly, countless people have fulfilled the law, so fulfilling the law does not require perfect obedience.


Jesus was not being asked about which are the only commandments that we should still follow, but rather the existence the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest two. It is contradictory to think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, but not the commandments that hang on them, for example it is contradictory to think that we should love God and our neighbor, but don't need to refrain from committing murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Mosaic Law.


The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness in disobedience to it (Acts 3:25-26), so there is no disagreement between following God or following God. Again grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example.


The passage says nothing to limit Gentiles to the Greatest two commandments. The reason the commands to love God and our neighbor rare the greatest two commandments and why all of the other commandments hang on them is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments. What God was instructing the Israelites to do when He gave the greatest two commandments is not different than what Jesus was instructing us to do when he repeated the greatest two commandments.
Gentiles who do not know the Mosaic Law = DO NOT KNOW = Get it..................
 

Soyeong

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Gentiles who do not know the Mosaic Law = DO NOT KNOW = Get it..................
Gentiles not having the law refers to not having physical possession of a Torah scroll. Jews were in charge of copying, maintaining, and teaching the Torah, so if a Gentile wanted access to it, then they had to go through the Jews to do that. The point is for Jews to be a light and a blessing to the Gentiles by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with the promise and the Gospel.
 

David in NJ

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Gentiles not having the law refers to not having physical possession of a Torah scroll. Jews were in charge of copying, maintaining, and teaching the Torah, so if a Gentile wanted access to it, then they had to go through the Jews to do that. The point is for Jews to be a light and a blessing to the Gentiles by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with the promise and the Gospel.
NOPE

Paul is speaking about Gentiles who DO NOT KNOW the law of Moses

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law,
are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Eternal Creator GOD of Nature/Creation = Romans 1:19
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,

"show the work of the law written in their hearts" = Love thy neighbor as thyself

Paul is demonstrating to the Jews who are under the law will end up condemned because they never connected the dots.
Meanwhile, God will judge Gentiles who did not have the law, not by the law, since they were never exposed to it but by the ETERNAL LAW of Christ.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.

TODAY is the GOSPEL and now that the GOSPEL/Grace of God has appeared unto all men a new Dynamic unfolds.

Acts 17
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
 
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Soyeong

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NOPE

Paul is speaking about Gentiles who DO NOT KNOW the law of Moses

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law,
are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Eternal Creator GOD of Nature/Creation = Romans 1:19
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,

"show the work of the law written in their hearts" = Love thy neighbor as thyself
Paul did not address the book of Romans to unbelievers who had who did not know about the Law of Moses, but to Gentile believers who were obeying it by nature, and were showing that it was written on their hearts even though they did not have physical possession of a Torah scroll. Again, it is contradictory to for someone to want to obey God's command to love while wanting nothing to do with following His instructions for how to love.
 

David in NJ

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Paul did not address the book of Romans to unbelievers who had who did not know about the Law of Moses, but to Gentile believers who were obeying it by nature, and were showing that it was written on their hearts even though they did not have physical possession of a Torah scroll. Again, it is contradictory to for someone to want to obey God's command to love while wanting nothing to do with following His instructions for how to love.
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God's Eternal Law is in His Creation

Eternal Creator GOD of Nature/Creation = Romans 1:19
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,
 

David in NJ

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Paul did not address the book of Romans to unbelievers who had who did not know about the Law of Moses, but to Gentile believers who were obeying it by nature, and were showing that it was written on their hearts even though they did not have physical possession of a Torah scroll. Again, it is contradictory to for someone to want to obey God's command to love while wanting nothing to do with following His instructions for how to love.

Regardless of the Gentile mindset 2,000 years ago we must compare the law of Moses to the GOSPEL.

They are not permitted to coexist before God since only One can bring us into Salvation and the very Throne of God.

Take an unlawful guess which One it is..................................
 
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St. SteVen

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Gentiles not having the law refers to not having physical possession of a Torah scroll. Jews were in charge of copying, maintaining, and teaching the Torah, so if a Gentile wanted access to it, then they had to go through the Jews to do that. The point is for Jews to be a light and a blessing to the Gentiles by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with the promise and the Gospel.
Why did the Apostle Paul say he was not under the law? He was a Jew, As you say, the Jews had possession of the law. (Torah scroll)

1 Corinthians 9:20 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.

/