Irrefutable biblical proof that death is not abolished at the second coming

[marks]

They interpret the highly-debated Rev 20 by the rest of Scripture. If you do that you will see that we are there now.

Any passage can be called "highly debatable", but what is the debate? Whether to accept it at face value or not. The fact is, the passage gives narrative prophecy composed of propositional statements, to be believed, or disbelieved.

Declaring these statements as symbolic lacks Scriptural authority, which means it's someone's opinion only, and that being an opinion that is countered by the plain sayings of the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

That's a long commentary of texts based on your interpretations of the texts.

But you never answered the questions again. Here are the questions again:


They are simple questions. Why can't you answer them without giving a commentary based on your opinions of what the texts mean?

You have been answered several times, when the 6th vial is poured out Satan is loosed to deceive the nation to gather them to battle as seen in Revelation 16:12-14 and Revelation 20:7-8 that are "Parallel" teachings of the same event

Revelation 20:7-8KJV
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 16:12-14KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 20:9 in fire coming down from heaven takes place at the second coming of the Lord in fire and final judgement as you have been shown "Several Times"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Davidpt]

You have been answered several times, when the 6th vial is poured out Satan is loosed to deceive the nation to gather them to battle as seen in Revelation 16:12-14 and Revelation 20:7-8 that are "Parallel" teachings of the same event

Revelation 20:7-8KJV
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 16:12-14KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 20:9 in fire coming down from heaven takes place at the second coming of the Lord in fire and final judgement as you have been shown "Several Times"

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

How then do you explain the following differences?

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them

This passage has the saints on the earth and being surrounded on the earth.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


While what is recorded here have zero saints on the earth being surrounded. This passage has them descending with Christ, thus they can't be on the earth being surrounded then. Which obviously means 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 has already been fulfilled, thus after they all meet the Lord in the air, they then descend to the earth below in order to confront the beast and it's armies.

Yet, Amils would have us believe that these are parallel events, meaning what I submitted per Revelation 20 and what I submitted per Revelaion 19.


And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city---vs---And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses

As if the armies which were in heaven is really meaning they are on the earth instead and being surrounded there.

You can't insist the 6th vial is the same event as Revelation 20:7-9 until you first convincingly show how what I brought up is involving the same events. Are Amils going to argue that when what I submitted per Revelation 19 takes place, that it is meaning before rather than after 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is fulfilled? Clearly, once 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is fulfilled there are no longer any saints dwelling on the earth at the time if this is what happens instead--- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air(1 Thessalonians 4:17)

 

[Davidpt]

Put quite simply, your rejection of any Death during the Millennium is a denial of a Mortal Humanity during the Millennium. So I can see why my view makes "no sense" to you--it's simply because you reject the premise of a Mortal Humanity during the Millennium.

For my part, I see no proof that a literal Millennium, assuming there is such, consists only of glorified saints? So we're back to square one. You believe there are only glorified saints during the Millennium, and I believe there is a Mortal Humanity during the Millennium. Since this is highly speculative, determining whether or not there is a Millennium, and if there is, what is its constituency, none of us are likely to "make any sense!"

Well, good point, but that's the question, isn't it? Does the Millennium continues the present age without Satan or not? Is the Millennium a kind of "rerun" of the present age, only starting with Satan bound and later released? An argument from silence is a weak argument either way.

You're entitled to believe what you will, brother. I'm just sharing my thoughts and opinions. You make a solid argument, but not a convincing one for me. There are loads of evidence that there is a Mortal Humanity during the Millennium who continue on as in the present age.

The consummation of the present age will be big and decisive. But how comprehensive will it be if people survive Armageddon and then are regathered as mortals, who have to decide whether they will cooperate and acknowledge the Kingdom of God has landed on the earth?

People may not live to 100 years old, or be blessed enough to live the age of a tree. Some among the nations may still not want to acknowledge the Feast of Tabernacles, acknowledging the Jews' legitimate inheritance of Palestine. Certainly, a 2nd Resurrection has not yet taken place after the 1st Resurrection happens. We all have to figure this out for ourselves.

Obviously, there will be mortals living on the earth during the millennium, if after the millennium, numerous ones of these are devoured by fire. I'm not arguing against mortals dwelling on the earth during the millennium, I'm questioning your view involving saints dwelling during the millennium, that some of these die. Why would they need to die, though? Do you perhaps think it's impossible that mortals could live an entire thousand years?

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.


Was not Adam a mortal? Does not the text indicate that he almost lived an entire thousand years? If he could do that in the beginning why can't one beat that record and live an entire thousand years? Keeping in mind, no mortal has yet lived an entire thousand years. Is that the way it's going to end, thus go down in history, so to speak, that no mortal ever lived an entire thousand years?

 

[ewq1938]

Kinds hard for the second coming to abolish death when Jesus kills people after he has returned plus the whole second death thing which is more death after the second coming.

Death is only abolished once the GWTJ is over, and the NHNE happens. Death no longer will exist at that time but does exist before that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Obviously, there will be mortals living on the earth during the millennium, if after the millennium, numerous ones of these are devoured by fire. I'm not arguing against mortals dwelling on the earth during the millennium, I'm questioning your view involving saints dwelling during the millennium, that some of these die.

Obviously, the glorified saints won't die, because they'll have gone to heaven and receive their new immortal bodies. The people who survive Armageddon who haven't yet been born again will get another chance in the Millennial Age. When they convert and become "saints," then of course they can die just as they do today.

Why would they need to die, though? Do you perhaps think it's impossible that mortals could live an entire thousand years?

No, it's never about what God "can do." He can do feats that are impossible for created beings. He just doesn't do the opposite of what He said He would do. If He said all mortals, descended from Adam, must die, then converting to Christ you will still have to die!

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

True. That may also be true in the Millennial Age. Many godly people may be able to live out the entire thousand years! But to indicate that converted mortals won't get sick, or won't get in accidents, or won't die, doesn't seem to be the case today for saints. Maybe it will be better after Christ comes?

Thanks for the explanation. We may not be far apart?

 

[Timtofly]

Only those people who have proved their Faith and trusted the Lord thru all that must happen until Jesus Returns, will go with Jesus into the Millennium. They are all mortal peoples, albeit in a world similar to pre Flood conditions, where they did live hundreds of years.

Satan will be locked away, so he won't be tempting people to sin, however some may fail in their duties and obligations to Jesus and will be punished, as we see in Zechariah 14:16-21
When Satan is released, for a short time, then he will seduce many and they will form a huge army to attack Jesus and His faithful people, in Jerusalem. They will be incinerated, but their souls will stand before God, along with everyone who has ever lived. Their names will not be found in the Book of Life, so they and all the godless sinners, will be annihilated in the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:11-15

ONLY then, will those whose names are found in the Book of Life; receive immortality.

Were Adam and Eve immortals before Adam disobeyed God?

 

[Timtofly]

You prove my thesis: you interpret every Scripture through the lens of your mistaken view of Rev 20. That is your misguided obsession. Amils prefers what Paul the apostle in their hermeneutics: "what saith the Scripture?" (Rom 4:3). They interpret the highly-debated Rev 20 by the rest of Scripture. If you do that you will see that we are there now.

If Paul does not explain in 1 Corinthians 15 we are in the Millennium now, do you have a more explicit chapter?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, I do see at least part of Isa 65 as descriptive of the Millennial Age. And I do *not* see "long enjoyment" as immortality.

I agree that Rev 20 is not describing Rev 21, though so much of this is speculative to me. I wish things were more definitive, but they aren't--at least not yet.

Well, "Death" is being personified, but it is not really a "place." It is a condition. I see Death being defeated at Christ's Coming not because people will stop dying, but only because *some,* namely the Church of the present age, will finally be resurrected into new immortal bodies that cannot die. This is the 1st occasion in which Christians have completely defeated death.

But it says nothing about the continuation of death among those who are not resurrected or caught up at the 2nd Coming. It says nothing about non-Christians who survive Armageddon.

I would assume that if Mortal Humanity continues after the 2nd Coming that they also will have to die, and be resurrected. In fact, the 1st Resurrection, which happens at the 2nd Coming, implies that there will be a 2nd Resurrection after the Millennium. And this means people will still be dying during the Millennium.

I'm not sure that's true at all. While it is true that Satan and his deceptions will be bound, nothing is said to indicate people can't be deceived by their own wishful thinking? If Sinful Humanity continues, human deceptions continue, as well.

No, I think that if there is a Millennium, there will be Sinful, Mortal Humanity with deceptions and death. This is why there is a rebellion at the end of the Millennium. It is not just because Satan is freed to encourage sin, but largely because sin had never really gone away, and was just awaiting greater encouragement to rebel against God.

That's true. The Kingdom of God at the 2nd Coming will cause the earth to derive its peace from acknowledgment of Christian truth. Though the whole world may acknowledge such, it is another thing for the whole world to obey it. A lack of rebellion against the Kingdom of God does not suggest complete conformity to it.

Christian kingdoms have conquered countries, and have turned them into Christian countries. But later on, these countries turned against colonialism and returned to pagan religions or antiChristian religions. Forcing them to submit and obtaining loving obedience are two separate matters.

I don't claim to understand the Why of the Millennial Age. It is something to speculate on.

The problem I have with this is that you seem to make it appear that people in the present age are being judged in their deception while those in the Millennium are judged without deception? How on earth can God apply a 2-tiered system of justice like this, considering it important that people know what they're doing and yet judge them after acknowledging they really don't know what they're doing?

Thanks for your thoughts.

No verse in Scripture talks about immortality as you all define immortality. Putting on immortality is putting on life, not immortality ie longevity. Life is the opposite of death.

As a soul you will never die, period. The lake of fire is spiritual death, not physical death.

Those living in the Millennium would not be immortals living in sin or living without sin.

They are not mortals, because that means death, but to call people immortal is not the opposite of death nor even found in Scripture as a term used by NT redeemed. People will still be people. They will just stop being mortal.

The term in Scripture is simply a son of God. But there is more to being a son of God than just the spiritual relationship.

You are still defining the Millennium with current mortal conditions. Those living at the start of the Millennium as the first generation will have changed physical bodies.

I get that you all want them to be immortals but immortals are not sons of God in the Bible. Immortals are just sinful humans who live a long time in their sinful flesh who seemingly can never die. Because Scripture nowhere calls the sons of God immortals.

In fact, the whole Greek understanding is based on death. We are mortal/death. The opposite would be immortal/without death. Death is still in the definition of the word. God calls it life, not "not death". Those living in the Millennium do not just have eternal life. By definition they are eternal life. And they won't even face the second death, nor the GWT Judgment ever.

The only thing people in the Millennium are judged by; is their one act of disobedience. They won't have a chance to disobey twice. That is what Death is for, and no it is not just personified along with sheol. Death is a location that is also emptied out at the GWT Judgment. The personification of Death and sheol in the 4th Seal is merely symbolic.

Also the church will not live on the earth in the Millennium, any more than the church lives on the earth now. By that, I mean the church is removed after their physical life of the earth is over. The Second Coming is the end of our physical life, of the earth, because we don't take this body of death/mortal with us. Just like the whole body of the church has been waiting in Paradise since the Cross, it will continue to wait in Paradise until after the Millennium.

That is the whole point of the church physically descending in the New Jerusalem after the Day of the Lord.

The church body on the earth only exists as ambassadors. And ambassadors don't claim the country they serve in, as their home. Once born of the Second Birth, this earth stops being one's home. So the redeemed living on the earth will never be the church living in the New Jerusalem.

But Adam's punishment has to end. The Day of the Lord is a Sabbath that is Holy and not part of the work week, or in humanity's case the week of sin, and death. Amil have that point right, they just deny the Day of the Lord as being Holy and without sin and death.

But since it incorporates a thousand years of time, and life is still normal as per being fruitful and multiplying and filling the earth and subduing it, then Jesus will be King in Jerusalem over Israel and all the other nations on the earth. The final harvest is this group of redeemed people from the earth. The remnant saved from the fire, but not quite the glorified sons of God experience in Paradise per Revelation 7:9-17. This passage has been ongoing since the Cross, as that is the entire church body. Revelation 20 has not been ongoing since the Cross.

This remnant of the earth are also removed from their current body. Death is removed and even the representation of death, this current physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1 applies to those on earth in the Millennium. That is the redemption of the body.

This whole waiting in death part for even those since Noah and the Flood, until heaven and earth pass away is denying that Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life in the first century.

People post hundreds of verses over and over again, and then just explain what they have been taught by theology. It is like they don't even see the words that are there. Merely the words they want to stick out to prove a point.

 

[Truth7t7]

How then do you explain the following differences?

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them

This passage has the saints on the earth and being surrounded on the earth.

Revelation 20:9 is the end of this world, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


While what is recorded here have zero saints on the earth being surrounded. This passage has them descending with Christ, thus they can't be on the earth being surrounded then. Which obviously means 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 has already been fulfilled, thus after they all meet the Lord in the air, they then descend to the earth below in order to confront the beast and it's armies.

Yet, Amils would have us believe that these are parallel events, meaning what I submitted per Revelation 20 and what I submitted per Revelaion 19.


And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city---vs---And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses

As if the armies which were in heaven is really meaning they are on the earth instead and being surrounded there.

You can't insist the 6th vial is the same event as Revelation 20:7-9 until you first convincingly show how what I brought up is involving the same events. Are Amils going to argue that when what I submitted per Revelation 19 takes place, that it is meaning before rather than after 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is fulfilled? Clearly, once 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is fulfilled there are no longer any saints dwelling on the earth at the time if this is what happens instead--- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air(1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Revelation chapters 16, 19, 20, is the very same battle in parallel teachings, your explanation has done nothing to discredit this fact, the battle of Armageddon and the battle of Gog/Magog is the very same battle that will see the second coming

 

[Randy Kluth]

No verse in Scripture talks about immortality as you all define immortality. Putting on immortality is putting on life, not immortality ie longevity. Life is the opposite of death.

I define "immortality" in the Bible as the putting on of "glorified bodies," which are sinless bodies that cannot die. No bodies of the old order are or have been eternal, except that Adam's body *would have been* eternal if he had chosen to partake of the Tree of Life.

The Wicked who are lost will have new resurrection bodies that are not described as "immortal" in the Bible. And that's probably because they enter into the 2nd Death. So these eternal bodies suffer a different kind of "death," and as such are not viewed as "immortal" in the biblical sense.

The Saved received new eternal bodies that cannot die but also cannot suffer the "2nd Death." They are permanently set apart for eternal fellowship with God and for the blessings that come from living in His presence.

So no, I do not equate an "eternal body" with biblical "immortality." Only the Saved obtain "immortality." The Lost obtain eternal bodies that suffer the "2nd Death," and as such are not viewed as "immortal" with respect to a blessed life.

As a soul you will never die, period. The lake of fire is spiritual death, not physical death.

Those living in the Millennium would not be immortals living in sin or living without sin.

I never said what you claim I believe, that eternal souls are the equivalent of "immortal souls."

They are not mortals, because that means death, but to call people immortal is not the opposite of death nor even found in Scripture as a term used by NT redeemed. People will still be people. They will just stop being mortal.

I have said that people living on the Millennial earth will be mortal. If you say they are not mortal you are saying they are something else. If you're not saying they're "immortal" what then are you saying?

The term in Scripture is simply a son of God. But there is more to being a son of God than just the spiritual relationship.

You are still defining the Millennium with current mortal conditions. Those living at the start of the Millennium as the first generation will have changed physical bodies.

You think people entering the Millennium will change from mortal to what change in their bodies?

I get that you all want them to be immortals but immortals are not sons of God in the Bible.

I don't know where you get this, Timothy? I haven't once said that people in the Millennium will be "immortal."

The saints *of the present age* will indeed become immortal. But I never said they will live on the Millennial earth. I think they will remain in heaven after helping to establish the Kingdom on earth until the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

Immortals are just sinful humans who live a long time in their sinful flesh who seemingly can never die. Because Scripture nowhere calls the sons of God immortals.

If the sons of God have not yet been called "immortals" it's because nobody has yet obtained their glorified body! But no, I don't think "immortals" are "sinful humans." I don't find that to be biblical at all!

As I said, "immortality" comes when the saints are given new glorified bodies that by definition have no sin and never will have sin again. That means they will never again have to die, either physically or in the 2nd Death, which appears to be a kind of permanent exile.

In fact, the whole Greek understanding is based on death. We are mortal/death. The opposite would be immortal/without death. Death is still in the definition of the word. God calls it life, not "not death". Those living in the Millennium do not just have eternal life. By definition they are eternal life. And they won't even face the second death, nor the GWT Judgment ever.

I don't care about "Greek understanding." You are unclear about your definition of "immortality." You need to stick with the biblical definition of "immortality." And that speaks of our obtaining glorified bodies that can't die in any sense whatsoever.

The only thing people in the Millennium are judged by; is their one act of disobedience. They won't have a chance to disobey twice. That is what Death is for, and no it is not just personified along with sheol. Death is a location that is also emptied out at the GWT Judgment. The personification of Death and sheol in the 4th Seal is merely symbolic.

Yes, Death is personified and thrown into the Lake of Fire. What it means is that people no longer die physically. But they can die in a different sense, by the 2nd Death. As I said, that appears to be a kind of permanent exile, removed from the life of blessing in God's presence.

Also the church will not live on the earth in the Millennium, any more than the church lives on the earth now. By that, I mean the church is removed after their physical life of the earth is over. The Second Coming is the end of our physical life, of the earth, because we don't take this body of death/mortal with us. Just like the whole body of the church has been waiting in Paradise since the Cross, it will continue to wait in Paradise until after the Millennium.

I agree that the Church will not take up life on earth in the Millennium though we may visit here. The earth will still belong to mortal humanity.

But you seem to think that the Church will *never again* take up life on earth in their new bodies? If so, I can't agree with you. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to be established on earth forever. Earth was created to be Man's eternal habitation.

That is the whole point of the church physically descending in the New Jerusalem after the Day of the Lord.

Now I don't understand what you're saying? "Our life on earth is over?" And now you're saying we "physically descend in the New Jerusalem?" Isn't this a contradiction?

The church body on the earth only exists as ambassadors. And ambassadors don't claim the country they serve in, as their home. Once born of the Second Birth, this earth stops being one's home. So the redeemed living on the earth will never be the church living in the New Jerusalem.

So now you're differentiating between "the redeemed living on the earth" and the "church?" My head is spinning!

The remnant saved from the fire, but not quite the glorified sons of God experience in Paradise per Revelation 7:9-17.

A "saved remnant" and yet "not quite the glorified sons of God?" You're making differentiations that I just don't see set out as such in the Bible!

This remnant of the earth are also removed from their current body.

If the "remnant of the earth" lose their physical bodies, what will they have?

 

[Truth7t7]

I define "immortality" in the Bible as the putting on of "glorified bodies," which are sinless bodies that cannot die. No bodies of the old order are or have been eternal, except that Adam's body *would have been* eternal if he had chosen to partake of the Tree of Life.

The Wicked who are lost will have new resurrection bodies that are not described as "immortal" in the Bible. And that's probably because they enter into the 2nd Death. So these eternal bodies suffer a different kind of "death," and as such are not viewed as "immortal" in the biblical sense.

The Saved received new eternal bodies that cannot die but also cannot suffer the "2nd Death." They are permanently set apart for eternal fellowship with God and for the blessings that come from living in His presence.

So no, I do not equate an "eternal body" with biblical "immortality." Only the Saved obtain "immortality." The Lost obtain eternal bodies that suffer the "2nd Death," and as such are not viewed as "immortal" with respect to a blessed life.

I never said what you claim I believe, that eternal souls are the equivalent of "immortal souls."

I have said that people living on the Millennial earth will be mortal. If you say they are not mortal you are saying they are something else. If you're not saying they're "immortal" what then are you saying?

You think people entering the Millennium will change from mortal to what change in their bodies?

I don't know where you get this, Timothy? I haven't once said that people in the Millennium will be "immortal."

The saints *of the present age* will indeed become immortal. But I never said they will live on the Millennial earth. I think they will remain in heaven after helping to establish the Kingdom on earth until the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

If the sons of God have not yet been called "immortals" it's because nobody has yet obtained their glorified body! But no, I don't think "immortals" are "sinful humans." I don't find that to be biblical at all!

As I said, "immortality" comes when the saints are given new glorified bodies that by definition have no sin and never will have sin again. That means they will never again have to die, either physically or in the 2nd Death, which appears to be a kind of permanent exile.

I don't care about "Greek understanding." You are unclear about your definition of "immortality." You need to stick with the biblical definition of "immortality." And that speaks of our obtaining glorified bodies that can't die in any sense whatsoever.

Yes, Death is personified and thrown into the Lake of Fire. What it means is that people no longer die physically. But they can die in a different sense, by the 2nd Death. As I said, that appears to be a kind of permanent exile, removed from the life of blessing in God's presence.

I agree that the Church will not take up life on earth in the Millennium though we may visit here. The earth will still belong to mortal humanity.

But you seem to think that the Church will *never again* take up life on earth in their new bodies? If so, I can't agree with you. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to be established on earth forever. Earth was created to be Man's eternal habitation.

Now I don't understand what you're saying? "Our life on earth is over?" And now you're saying we "physically descend in the New Jerusalem?" Isn't this a contradiction?

So now you're differentiating between "the redeemed living on the earth" and the "church?" My head is spinning!

A "saved remnant" and yet "not quite the glorified sons of God?" You're making differentiations that I just don't see set out as such in the Bible!

If the "remnant of the earth" lose their physical bodies, what will they have?

A plain fact that (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) at the Lord's return

The complete chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is dedicated to the second coming and resurrection, at this time the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When Jesus Christ returns as seen in verse 23 above, the resurrection takes place, in verse 52 below it gives a "Detailed" description of how long this takes place (In The Twinkling Of An Eye) in verse 54 below in "Detail" it shows the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

When Jesus returns the resurrection takes place in the twinkling of an eye, when the last enemy death is destroyed (The End) its that simple, why do you resist the simple words of God's truth before your eyes?

1 Corinthians 15:51-54KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[ewq1938]

The Wicked who are lost will have new resurrection bodies that are not described as "immortal" in the Bible. And that's probably because they enter into the 2nd Death. So these eternal bodies suffer a different kind of "death," and as such are not viewed as "immortal" in the biblical sense.

They will resurrect back to their original bodies and will be mortal again so they can die the second death. Their bodies are never eternal in any sense.

 

[Keraz]

Were Adam and Eve immortals before Adam disobeyed God?

No,'
But I expect their names will be in the Book of Life, so immortality will be theirs after the GWT Judgment.

They will resurrect back to their original bodies and will be mortal again so they can die the second death. Their bodies are never eternal in any sense.

We know from Revelation 20:4-6, that only the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the beast, will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.
Their names are in the Book of Life, so they are guaranteed immortality after the GWT Judgment. Whether they die again or live as mortal's for the entire thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

We know from Revelation 20:4-6, that only the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the beast, will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.

No, we only know that passage focuses upon that group, not that they are the only ones to resurrect.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead in Christ "rise first" is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

Anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown on them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light on one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.

 

[Keraz]

No, we only know that passage focuses upon that group, not that they are the only ones to resurrect.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead in Christ "rise first" is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.

Not correct.
Rev 20:3-6 clearly states whose souls Jesus will bring with Him and resurrect.
The rest of the dead must wait for the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say 'all' the dead in Christ.

Wrong Church teaching has deceived you into believing a general Resurrection at Jesus Return. Such a thing would require Judgment, as we all know people who call themselves Christian, who may not be one at all.
All Jesus does after He Returns, is to separate the nations. Matthew 25:31-33
Matthew 25:46 refers to what happens at the GWT Judgment. It does not match with all the Prophesies about His Return, to reign for the next thousand years.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20:9 is the end of this world, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Revelation chapters 16, 19, 20, is the very same battle in parallel teachings, your explanation has done nothing to discredit this fact, the battle of Armageddon and the battle of Gog/Magog is the very same battle that will see the second coming

Mankind is a created being. We are creature, part of the creation. If the heavens and the earth - the current creation - is going to be completely destroyed when Jesus comes as you claim, then so will all humans with it, because we are part of the creation that you say is going to be completely destroyed and an entirely new creation come into being. Resurrected people are people who have been resurrected from the death of the body, not people who change from being creature to being creator.

 

[Timtofly]

I define "immortality" in the Bible as the putting on of "glorified bodies," which are sinless bodies that cannot die. No bodies of the old order are or have been eternal, except that Adam's body *would have been* eternal if he had chosen to partake of the Tree of Life.

The Wicked who are lost will have new resurrection bodies that are not described as "immortal" in the Bible. And that's probably because they enter into the 2nd Death. So these eternal bodies suffer a different kind of "death," and as such are not viewed as "immortal" in the biblical sense.

The Saved received new eternal bodies that cannot die but also cannot suffer the "2nd Death." They are permanently set apart for eternal fellowship with God and for the blessings that come from living in His presence.

So no, I do not equate an "eternal body" with biblical "immortality." Only the Saved obtain "immortality." The Lost obtain eternal bodies that suffer the "2nd Death," and as such are not viewed as "immortal" with respect to a blessed life.

That is the problem, that bodies are glorified.

The soul puts on both a physical body and a spirit. The new physical body put on is incorruptible without sin.

The spirit is put on and death is defeated. But those living on earth during the Millennium do not put on the spirit. They only loose the physical body of corruption and put on the physical body without corruption.

I never said what you claim I believe, that eternal souls are the equivalent of "immortal souls."

I have said that people living on the Millennial earth will be mortal. If you say they are not mortal you are saying they are something else. If you're not saying they're "immortal" what then are you saying?

You think people entering the Millennium will change from mortal to what change in their bodies?

I don't know where you get this, Timothy? I haven't once said that people in the Millennium will be "immortal."

The saints *of the present age* will indeed become immortal. But I never said they will live on the Millennial earth. I think they will remain in heaven after helping to establish the Kingdom on earth until the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

If the sons of God have not yet been called "immortals" it's because nobody has yet obtained their glorified body! But no, I don't think "immortals" are "sinful humans." I don't find that to be biblical at all!

As I said, "immortality" comes when the saints are given new glorified bodies that by definition have no sin and never will have sin again. That means they will never again have to die, either physically or in the 2nd Death, which appears to be a kind of permanent exile.

Adam changed bodies the instant he disobeyed God. Adam was allowed to keep living on the earth in a physical body that would eventually die.

Adam lost his spirit that was the image of God and was now naked in the image of death.

I don't care about "Greek understanding." You are unclear about your definition of "immortality." You need to stick with the biblical definition of "immortality." And that speaks of our obtaining glorified bodies that can't die in any sense whatsoever.

Yes, Death is personified and thrown into the Lake of Fire. What it means is that people no longer die physically. But they can die in a different sense, by the 2nd Death. As I said, that appears to be a kind of permanent exile, removed from the life of blessing in God's presence.

I agree that the Church will not take up life on earth in the Millennium though we may visit here. The earth will still belong to mortal humanity.

But you seem to think that the Church will *never again* take up life on earth in their new bodies? If so, I can't agree with you. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to be established on earth forever. Earth was created to be Man's eternal habitation.

Now I don't understand what you're saying? "Our life on earth is over?" And now you're saying we "physically descend in the New Jerusalem?" Isn't this a contradiction?

So now you're differentiating between "the redeemed living on the earth" and the "church?" My head is spinning!

A "saved remnant" and yet "not quite the glorified sons of God?" You're making differentiations that I just don't see set out as such in the Bible!

If the "remnant of the earth" lose their physical bodies, what will they have?

The Biblical definition of immortality is putting on the spirit and becoming a complete son of God: soul, body, and spirit.

You call the spirit a body. The spirit is not a body but a spiritual covering over the body. You don't put on the Holy Spirit, which resides in you. One does not put on a demon, but is possessed in one's mind by a demon. But you are not possessed by your own spirit, and your own spirit is not "ingested" inside of you. The spirit is put on over the physical body.

Paul is saying that the corruptible body is removed and the incorruptible body is put on like a change of clothes. You don't have a spirit to take off, because being mortal is being spiritually dead. Putting on the spirit over the physical body is putting on life.

Paul is not repeating himself. Paul is talking about putting on the physical and then putting on the spiritual over the physical.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (those alive physically on the earth) shall be raised incorruptible (a new physical body), and we shall be changed (from one physical body to another physical body). For this corruptible (physical body) must put on incorruption(new physical body) , and this mortal (dead without a spirit) must put on immortality (life with a spirit) . So when this corruptible (physical body) shall have put on incorruption(God's physical body in God's image 2 Corinthians 5:1) , and this mortal (dead without a spirit) shall have put on immortality(life with a spirit) , then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

Being glorified is the entire process, not just putting on a "glorified body". A "glorified body" is your definition of putting on immortality.

The sheep (Israel) and wheat (all the Gentile nations) of the final harvest are not glorified. They only exchange physical bodies. They are the first generation tasked to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the earth. This will be under the iron rod rule of Jesus as King over every nation per the 7th Trumpet.

The church on earth, currently, still live in the body of death right now. The term church or Christian will not apply during the Millennium. No one will have on a corruptible sin nature physical body.

Theology has taken 1 Corinthians 15 and wrongly claimed there is a single physical resurrection for those in Christ. The physical resurrection into a new permanent body for the OT redeemed happened at the Cross. As the firstfruits, they already have a physical body in Paradise. Being glorified at the Second Coming is putting on the spirit for them. But they have not been procreating in Paradise because Paradise continued to fill with new arrivals daily since the Cross. Once a church ambassador has finished their earthly task, they return home into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. At the Second Coming, Jesus brings them with Him to meet those rising from the earth in new bodies and the entire church body is given a white robe, the spirit to put on, as symbolized in the 5th Seal. The Second Coming is not just about redeeming Israel and destroying the wicked instantly. The 5th and 6th Seals are the only time the Second Coming is mentioned in Revelation. Jesus and the angels carry out the final harvest after the church is glorified and told to wait until the rest of the redeemed are gathered out of their bodies of death.

You may deny explicitly using Greek mythology. However you still use Theology of pagan Greek philosophers converted to Christianity. And Paul as a Jew still had to use Greek words with their Greek associations. We can interpret Paul with what Jesus taught as recorded in the Gospels.

 

[Timtofly]

No,'
But I expect their names will be in the Book of Life, so immortality will be theirs after the GWT Judgment.

This is where you leave Scripture and turn to human opinion.

What does God even mean that Adam was a son of God in the image of God, and then instantly lost all of that image, not in part, but in whole? Because that is death, not just physically no longer being on the earth.

Adam had a different physical body the instant he disobeyed God, because that is exactly what God said would happen. Not even Satan knew what would happen. Satan decieved Eve from a totally different angle.

How would Satan know the future, when nothing like that had never happened before?

Why do humans just assume Adam started to die? Adam was not created with a physical body that was temporary and corrupt. Adam was given that temporal corruptible physical body the instant he disobeyed, because that is the death God said would happen. Adam could only start to die in the body of death. The body of life would never, nor could ever die, nor was corruptible.

Now God could have just changed the properties of the same body, but Paul points out in 2 Corinthians 5:1 there are two different distinct physical bodies. One of death and one of life.

The body of death is not allowed in Paradise nor heaven. The body of life is welcomed freely in Paradise and in heaven. We are never told what happened to Adam and Eve. Obviously they were redeemed and named in the Lamb's book of life. But their choice of accepting God's gift and the second birth is not so obvious. Enoch was the first convert mentioned in the book of Genesis, and was translated out of the body of death into the body of life and walked with God, back into Paradise, and was never seen again. Obviously no one born from Adam and Eve not translated could return to Paradise.

And Noah was alive after the Flood, and the old earth was gone, and so was Paradise. Now a soul had to wait in sheol until the Cross to enter Paradise. The thief on the Cross next to Jesus, was the first one mentioned to enter Paradise, since Enoch was said to do so. It would seem Moses could enter, but that is a highly contested debate. Even Satan and Michael, two angels, argued over that point.

Now your view is that no one can enter Paradise until after the GWT Judgment.

Based on the fact the Lamb's book of life is present.

What if the only reason it is opened is to remove names? Are you standing there waiting to see if your name is going to be removed? Are you that confident in accepting salvation, that you cannot enjoy Paradise, but are still dead to God waiting to see if you made the right choice at the GWT Judgment?

You seem confident to be able to live in Israel unless you physically die. But not confident enough to still be named in the Lamb's book of life, so you have to wait in death another 1,000 years to figure that out? Being allowed to live in Israel with Jesus seems enough proof you will never need to be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Being allowed into Paradise is the same thing as being allowed to live in Israel. They both are predicated on being named in the Lamb's book of life. If you cannot enter Paradise, you cannot live in Israel either during the Millennium.

There is not a seperate book of names of those who get to live in Israel or during the Millennium for that matter.

 

[Truth7t7]

Resurrected people are people who have been resurrected from the death of the body, not people who change from being creature to being creator.

Once Again, It's Not Changing

A plain fact that (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) at the Lord's return

The complete chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is dedicated to the second coming and resurrection, at this time the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When Jesus Christ returns as seen in verse 23 above, the resurrection takes place, in verse 52 below it gives a "Detailed" description of how long this takes place (In The Twinkling Of An Eye) in verse 54 below in "Detail" it shows the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

When Jesus returns the resurrection takes place in the twinkling of an eye, when the last enemy death is destroyed (The End) its that simple, why do you resist the simple words of God's truth before your eyes?

1 Corinthians 15:51-54KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.