Irrefutable biblical proof that death is not abolished at the second coming

[Randy Kluth]

God created a soul with a body, and a spirit.

I don't see the Bible using that language at all. God put a spirit in a lifeless body, and in the process created a human soul, who is a spirit encased in the body.

Not "or".

"And".

No, a human soul is a human spirit. One can use either term and mean the same thing.

Being spiritually dead means we lack access to our spirit.

That is your definition--not mine. You are misusing the concept in the New Testament which states that we are "dead in trespasses" under the Law of Moses. The Law confirmed God's judgment in Eden in which sinful man is condemned to physical death, which is separation of the physical body from the human soul.

Men do not walk around, as non-Christians, being "spiritually dead." We may use that terminology to show that people who are non-Christian do not have an active and continuing relationship with God. But in reality, people do have access to God and can even engage in a relationship with God as unbelievers.

The goal of Christianity is to get people to choose to live in constant relationship with God, and so remain united with Him continuously. This is what Salvation is, a turning over of our own lawless ways for the ways of the Lord and His righteousness.

Sons of God is the entire human race.

If that was true there would be no need for the term at all. No, "sons of God" reflect those who by faith wish to emulate God their Father.

 

[Timtofly]

If that was true there would be no need for the term at all. No, "sons of God" reflect those who by faith wish to emulate God their Father.

So Adam only emulated God for a few hours, and then gave up?

 

[Zao is life]

No, we only know that passage focuses upon that group, not that they are the only ones to resurrect.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead in Christ "rise first" is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

Anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown on them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light on one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.

Yes, I agree,

and

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28 NETfree).

"At the renewal of all things" NIV
"When the world is made new" NLT
"In the new world" ESV
"In the regeneration" NKJV

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12).

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3:21).

"Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4).

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations" (Revelation 2:26).

The only people who exist in the sea in Revelation 20:13 are the dead. For those who had been resurrected there is no more "sea" to exist in, because death will no longer exist for them.

Nor will there be any curse. They are the bride of Christ, the wife of the Lamb, also described in Hebrews 12:12 as Mount Zion, and in the Revelation as New Jerusalem.

Revelation Chapter 7 vs. 13-17 is talking about the experience of the bride of Christ following His return. So is Revelation 21:1-7, and the exact same promise regarding their experience is being repeated there.

Revelation 19 vs.7-9, 14 & 19 are describing the same bride of Christ at the time of His return.

Revelation 21:8 is talking about the same thing that Revelation 20:11-15 is talking about:

"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8);

and Revelation 21:27 states that only those who are written in the Lamb's book of Life will be in New Jerusalem:

"And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 21:27);​

Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life did not worship the beast in Revelation 13:8.

and in closing this message to His churches, Jesus repeats the above again, saying,

"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie." (Revelation 22:12-15).
​

Revelation 21:1 to Revelation 22:5 are describing the blessedness of the saints who had been resurrected at the time of Christ's return, at least some of whom will be reigning with Him during the thousand years, over:

"The nations of those who are saved" who will "walk in the light of New Jerusalem" (Revelation 21:24);

"And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there."

Death, the sea and any curse will no longer exist for those who will be resurrected at the time of the return of Christ. The second death has no authority over them.

"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
​

The sea will still exist for the above dead (the rest of the dead who did not live again until the thousand years were completed), and THEY will experience the second death when the sea containing only the dead will deliver up the dead in it (Revelation 20:13).

There is NO death, NO curse, NO sea for those who are the bride of Christ (New Jerusalem) who will be resurrected when He returns. The new heaven and new earth commences when the millennium commences.

*** The only people who can die a second death are those who have been resurrected from the dead.

Adam did not possess eternal life | immortality in himself. That's why he died, though Satan had told him "You will not surely die". Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), Christ alone has (eternal) life in Himself (John 5:26). He is God.

The creature's (eternal) life is IN CHRIST.

The Gog-Magog armies...

... are not dead people. They are people who will be destroyed by fire coming down from God out of heaven. They did not exist in the sea. The sea did not deliver them up.

The spotlight you spoke about in your post may be on the few who will reign over (the nations of the many) resurrected saints during the thousand years.

 

[WPM]

Yes, I agree,

and

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28 NETfree).

"At the renewal of all things" NIV
"When the world is made new" NLT
"In the new world" ESV
"In the regeneration" NKJV

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12).

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3:21).

"Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4).

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations" (Revelation 2:26).

The only people who exist in the sea in Revelation 20:13 are the dead. For those who had been resurrected there is no more "sea" to exist in, because death will no longer exist for them.

Nor will there be any curse. They are the bride of Christ, the wife of the Lamb, also described in Hebrews 12:12 as Mount Zion, and in the Revelation as New Jerusalem.

Revelation Chapter 7 vs. 13-17 is talking about the experience of the bride of Christ following His return. So is Revelation 21:1-7, and the exact same promise regarding their experience is being repeated there.

Revelation 19 vs.7-9, 14 & 19 are describing the same bride of Christ at the time of His return.

Revelation 21:8 is talking about the same thing that Revelation 20:11-15 is talking about:

"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8);

and Revelation 21:27 states that only those who are written in the Lamb's book of Life will be in New Jerusalem:

"And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 21:27);​

Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life did not worship the beast in Revelation 13:8.

and in closing this message to His churches, Jesus repeats the above again, saying,

"And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie." (Revelation 22:12-15).
​

Revelation 21:1 to Revelation 22:5 are describing the blessedness of the saints who had been resurrected at the time of Christ's return, at least some of whom will be reigning with Him during the thousand years, over:

"The nations of those who are saved" who will "walk in the light of New Jerusalem" (Revelation 21:24);

"And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there."

Death, the sea and any curse will no longer exist for those who will be resurrected at the time of the return of Christ. The second death has no authority over them.

"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
​

The sea will still exist for the above dead (the rest of the dead who did not live again until the thousand years were completed), and THEY will experience the second death when the sea containing only the dead will deliver up the dead in it (Revelation 20:13).

There is NO death, NO curse, NO sea for those who are the bride of Christ (New Jerusalem) who will be resurrected when He returns. The new heaven and new earth commences when the millennium commences.

*** The only people who can die a second death are those who have been resurrected from the dead.

Adam did not possess eternal life | immortality in himself. That's why he died, though Satan had told him "You will not surely die". Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), Christ alone has (eternal) life in Himself (John 5:26). He is God.

The creature's (eternal) life is IN CHRIST.

The Gog-Magog armies...

... are not dead people. They are people who will be destroyed by fire coming down from God out of heaven. They did not exist in the sea. The sea did not deliver them up.

The spotlight you spoke about in your post may be on the few who will reign over (the nations of the many) resurrected saints during the thousand years.

This supports the Amil position and forbids the Premil position.

Creation is not “finished” when Jesus comes; it is changed, it is renewed, it is glorified, it is perfected. What is finished is the bondage of corruption. It is purged from creation forever. This is another truth that negates Premil. Creation will be restored so that the redeemed and glorified creature.

When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration [Gr. paliggenesia] when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This Greek word paliggenesia simply means: renewal, restoration recreation, and regeneration. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state.

Premils have no answer to the fact that Scripture shows the regeneration of the earth, heavens and elements to occur at Christ’s return, not after some supposed future millennial kingdom blighted with sin and sinners, dying and crying, corruption and crime, war and terror of the Premil scenario, including the pointless slaughter of countless innocent animals during that period.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.

I agree with what Albert Barnes says on “the regeneration" here: “the word also means any great change, or a restoration of things to a former state or to a better state. In this sense it is probably used here. It refers to that great revolution-that restoration of order in the universe-that universal new birth which will occur when the dead shall rise, and all human things shall be changed, and a new order of things shall start up out of the ruins of the old, when the Son of man shall come to judgment. The passage, then, should be read, ‘Ye which have followed me shall, as a reward in the great day of the resurrection of the dead, and of forming the new and eternal order of things-the day of judgment, the regeneration – be signally honored and blessed’.”

Other translations seem to agree with this conclusion, interpreting this passage:

• "In the new world" ESV
• “In the new creation” Weymouth NT
• "When the world is made new" NLT
• "At the renewal of all things" NRSV

 

[Truth7t7]

How can it not be a completely newly created body, and how will you not be destroyed with the creation that you say is going to be completely destroyed, since you are a created being, and part of His creation?

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

 

[Zao is life]

This supports the Amil position and forbids the Premil position.

No it doesn't (support Amillennialism), and no it does not forbid that the thousand years commences after Christ returns.

The cycles of days, weeks, months, seasons and years do not cease in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture forbids any such fallacy, and many Amillennialists (though not all) wrongly interpret just one verse out of all scripture as "support" for their fallacious claim that these cycles of time will cease.

Creation is not “finished” when Jesus comes; it is changed, it is renewed, it is glorified, it is perfected. What is finished is the bondage of corruption. It is purged from creation forever.

I agree.

Amillennialists do not all agree with you, though. Some, for example @Truth7t7, will tell you that what you say above is false and that all creation will be destroyed - thoroughly destroyed - by fire when Christ returns and a completely new creation created.

This is another truth that negates Premil.

Actually it's another truth that negates Amil.

How does it negate Amil?

It negates Amil in the same way that it negates Premil - i.e, not at all. You make so many empty, baseless claims in your posts!

The new heavens and new earth coming at the time of the return of Christ does not mean that the cycles of days, weeks, months, seasons and years cease to exist in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture negates any such fallacy.

There will be a thousand years in the new heavens and new earth during which Satan will be bound and those who had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name will be alive in their bodies (zao) again, and the resurrection they experience is the first resurrection of the body (anastasis) of ALL those who belong to Christ at His coming.

Scripture negates ("forbids" using your terminology) the Amil fallacy because not only are there quite a few New Testament verses and passages telling us directly, clearly and unambiguously that Satan is not currently bound, but the best "support" Amillennialists can offer for Satan being currently bound consists of scriptures pulled together by them through sheer conjecture that do not even say that Satan was bound at Calvary.

Scripture also negates the comical (because of it's ridiculousness) notion that those who were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name, could have been reigning during a symbolic thousand years which are actually thousands of years from long before the beast even ascended from out of the abyss.

Amillennialists completely change the meaning of what is written in Revelation 20:1-6.

The truth is that the thousand years - according to scripture - begins when Christ returns, and the new heavens and new earth descending out of heaven from God to the earth in the new heavens and new earth are describing the experience of the resurrected saints both during the thousand years and forever, and comparing it with the lake of fire | second death to be experienced at the close of the same thousand years by those who are outside.

When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration [Gr. paliggenesia] when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

THE PROMISES TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME REGARDING WHAT THEY WILL EXPERIENCE DURING THE THOUSAND YEARS AND FOREVERMORE AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS:-

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)
(5) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(6) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(7) They will have written on them the name of God, Christ's new name, and the name of the city of God (Revelation 3:12)
(8) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(9) They will reign on the earth (Revelation 5:10)
(10) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)
(11) They will reign with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:6)
(12) They will reign forever and ever (Revelation 22:5)

βασιλεύσει (He will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 11:15 (Christ).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) on the earth: Revelation 5:10 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) with Christ a thousand years: Revelation 20:6 (those who overcame).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 22:5:

“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they will reign (βασιλεύσουσιν) for ever and ever.”

There will be a minority of resurrected saints ruling over a majority of resurrected saints during the thousand years, i.e they will be reigning over the twelve tribes of Israel - the nations of those who are saved according to Revelation 21, who will walk in the light of New Jerusalem and bring their tribute into it.

Just as God permitted Satan to test mankind in the Garden of Eden after a period of time had passed, so Satan will be released one last time at the close of the thousand years just as the scriptures say - and all those who believe Satan's lie that "they will not surely die - the lie which implies that eternal life | immortality is in themselves - will be tempted to sin even while they are alive forever, just like Adam did.

Fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them all, those who join the armies of Gog-Magog.

After this the sea will deliver up the rest of the dead in them and all whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will experience the second death, which is the Lake of Fire.

Scripture negates ("forbids" in your terminology) both the Amillennial fallacy and corruption, as well as the most common Premil notion that the new heavens and new earth follows the thousand years.

Take it or leave it. I.e take the scriptures for what they are saying, or leave it and continue to make up your own doctrine:

Premils have no answer to the fact that Scripture shows the regeneration of the earth, heavens and elements to occur at Christ’s return

Amils likewise have to answer all that I spoke about above - things which they cannot answer and fail to answer and instead come up with things like the extremely comical (due to it's ridiculousness) notion that there is some sort of "back to the future time machine" in the New Testament whereby people who are beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name get to reign with Christ for a thousand years which is actually thousands of years before they were even born and a thousand years which are thousands of years before they were even resurrected; and a thousand years which are thousands of years before the beast even ascended from out of the abyss.

Amils also have to answer for the fact that quite a number of New Testament scriptures teach us that Satan was not bound at Calvary, and has never been bound as yet - something which Amils such as yourself have proved over and over and over again that they are completely incapable of answering for.

, not after some supposed future millennial kingdom blighted with sin and sinners, dying and crying, corruption and crime, war and terror of the Premil scenario, including the pointless slaughter of countless innocent animals during that period.

It's a false assertion and you are making a fool of yourself by repeatedly making it because Premils do not believe the thousand years is blighted with the above, but it's quite obvious that your Amil "millennium" is indeed blighted with the above.

And you are fully aware that only some Premils believe that the millennium will be filled with animal sacrifices and a physical temple in Jerusalem - the majority of Premils do not.

You're wasting my and the reader's time again because your statement above is disingenuous and a false accusation regarding what "Premils" believe since only some Premils believe what you falsely implied all Premils believe - and you know it.

I agree with what Albert Barnes says on “the regeneration" here:

I agree partially with what he says too (not fully, because he places the time for when the dead will be judged - when the sea will deliver up the dead in it - at the wrong time, just like you do).

Forget about the commentaries of commentators who do not all agree with one another about all aspects of the prophetic Biblical message.

Read the Bible and comment yourself on what you believe the Bible is saying. If the person you are quoting is not able to speak for himself in these forums then let the Bible speak for itself - something you have proved over and over again that you are not very good at doing.

 

[Zao is life]

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Right - every man's work (érgon) - the works of men (érgon) Peter says in 2 Peter 3:10 are going to be burned up when the rudiments (stoicheîon) of this world will melt with fervent heat.

It's astonishing how you can recognize that the works of men will be burned up when Paul says so, yet you do not recognize that the works of men will be burned up when Peter says the same thing.

 

[Truth7t7]

No it doesn't (support Amillennialism), and no it does not forbid that the thousand years commences after Christ returns.

The cycles of days, weeks, months, seasons and years do not cease in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture forbids any such fallacy, and many Amillennialists (though not all) wrongly interpret just one verse out of all scripture as "support" for their fallacious claim that these cycles of time will cease.



I agree.

Amillennialists do not all agree with you, though. Some, for example @Truth7t7, will tell you that what you say above is false and that all creation will be destroyed - thoroughly destroyed - by fire when Christ returns and a completely new creation created.



Actually it's another truth that negates Amil.

How does it negate Amil?

It negates Amil in the same way that it negates Premil - i.e, not at all. You make so many empty, baseless claims in your posts!

The new heavens and new earth coming at the time of the return of Christ does not mean that the cycles of days, weeks, months, seasons and years cease to exist in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture negates any such fallacy.

There will be a thousand years in the new heavens and new earth during which Satan will be bound and those who had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name will be alive in their bodies (zao) again, and the resurrection they experience is the first resurrection of the body (anastasis) of ALL those who belong to Christ at His coming.

Scripture negates ("forbids" using your terminology) the Amil fallacy because not only are there quite a few New Testament verses and passages telling us directly, clearly and unambiguously that Satan is not currently bound, but the best "support" Amillennialists can offer for Satan being currently bound consists of scriptures pulled together by them through sheer conjecture that do not even say that Satan was bound at Calvary.

Scripture also negates the comical (because of it's ridiculousness) notion that those who were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name, could have been reigning during a symbolic thousand years which are actually thousands of years from long before the beast even ascended from out of the abyss.

Amillennialists completely change the meaning of what is written in Revelation 20:1-6.

The truth is that the thousand years - according to scripture - begins when Christ returns, and the new heavens and new earth descending out of heaven from God to the earth in the new heavens and new earth are describing the experience of the resurrected saints both during the thousand years and forever, and comparing it with the lake of fire | second death to be experienced at the close of the same thousand years by those who are outside.

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Truth7t7]

Right - every man's work (érgon) - the works of men (érgon) Peter says in 2 Peter 3:10 are going to be burned up when the rudiments (stoicheîon) of this world will melt with fervent heat.

It's astonishing how you can recognize that the works of men will be burned up when Paul says so, yet you do not recognize that the works of men will be burned up when Peter says the same thing.

Literal living physical human bodies will be burned up at the return of Jesus Christ, just as took place in Sodom and Gomorrah, you aren't going to bend and twist this biblical truth

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Zao is life]

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

Well that will be the final end of you since Adam was created on the 6th day and is part of that creation that you say is going to be completely dissolved. No resurrection of the body from the dead for you. Your theology forbids it. Maybe you won't be created in the new creation at all!!!

Have you ever wondered why the scriptures call it a new heavens and earth and not a new creation? The only new creation scripture talks about is the one that has already come:
​

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." (Galatians 6:15).

"So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Why would you have become a new creation in Christ already, only so that you can be dissolved by fire later with all creation?​

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with

-- But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the 1. elements [stoicheîon] shall be 2. dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the 3. works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up. -- 2 Peter 3:10.

1. stoicheîon refers to the rudiments of the world in every New Testament verse the word appears in;

2. lýō refers to something that was bound, being loosed;

3. érgon refers in some verses to the works of God, and in a very long list of verses, to the works of men or of Satan.

fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Amen. All things made new again. Regenerated when Jesus returns and the sons of God are revealed.

You should stop repeating your mantra about what you think scripture means and go back to studying scripture so as to ascertain from scripture what it means.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

When you speak of "age of Aquarius" and falsely imply that it's what all Premils believe in, it shows you up for what your arguments are: lies like the above lie that you just told, falsely asserting Premils have been "misled into believing THE coming millennium is some sort of Aquarius".

Agree! I remember that song long ago - when I was a hippie. But why conflate Astrology with the Bible? Just added prevarications. Actually it appears the Amills view of the last 2000 years to be in an Age of Aquarious - with Satan locked up: peace on earth, harmony, no more falsehoods ... Yah, sure.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

They will resurrect back to their original bodies and will be mortal again so they can die the second death. Their bodies are never eternal in any sense.

Which is: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. MATT. 10:28
I submit that this event is parallel with
2 Peter 3:10 and one in the same.

 

[Truth7t7]

Agree! I remember that song long ago - when I was a hippie. But why conflate Astrology with the Bible? Just added prevarications. Actually it appears the Amills view of the last 2000 years to be in an Age of Aquarious - with Satan locked up: peace on earth, harmony, no more falsehoods ... Yah, sure.

"You Response Is Diversion"

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire as you have been shown several times Ron

When Jesus returns the resurrection of all takes place, believers are changed, this earth is dissolved, Final Judgement is complete, this takes place in the twinkling of an eye "eternity begins"

 

[Truth7t7]

They will resurrect back to their original bodies and will be mortal again so they can die the second death. Their bodies are never eternal in any sense.

Sounds like the JW,S and 7th Day Adventist false doctrine of "Annihilation" the wicked die and never suffer eternal torment?

 

[Truth7t7]

No resurrection of the body from the dead for you. Your theology forbids it.​

Your claim is "False" I will be resurrected or changed at the return of Jesus Christ, just as scripture teaches below

The complete chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is dedicated to the second coming and resurrection, at this time the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When Jesus Christ returns as seen in verse 23 above, the resurrection takes place, in verse 52 below it gives a "Detailed" description of how long this takes place (In The Twinkling Of An Eye) in verse 54 below in "Detail" it shows the (Last Enemy Death) is destroyed (The End)

When Jesus returns the resurrection takes place in the twinkling of an eye, when the last enemy death is destroyed (The End) its that simple, why do you resist the simple words of God's truth before your eyes?

1 Corinthians 15:51-54KJV
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The soul doesn't "put on" a spirit. It *is* a spirit. When a human spirit is joined to a body, that spirit becomes a "soul." That soul is a human spirit indwelling a human body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 means "all of us." When Paul prays, "may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless," he means, "your whole being." So we are composed of body, soul and spirit.
Our spiritual part was dead and now is alive. So we functioned up until that point with just a soul and body. I always thought of the soul as thr mind, will and emotions, along with any talents, thr invisible you. Unbelievers have a soul. Animals have a soul, but not a spirt. The spirit is our unique part of us that communes with God or is disabled.
Hebrews 4:12 tells us the soul and spirit are not the same - especially when they can be divided: For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of
soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
We are wonderfully made, intricately woven - highly integrated.
Soul - self consciousness (psuch)
Spirit - God consciousness ( pneuma)

Stephen said, Lord "receive my spirit" when he was stoned to death.

I do think the soul is part of the flesh and hence, that part of us must die and at death we are separated. The spirit part of us (new creature) is all that is good about us and goes to heaven.

Btw, this is not to go off topic brother, and I am almost always in agreement with you. It is just a common confusion amongst Christians, even among teachers when asked, they can't give a straight answer.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The new heavens and new earth coming at the time of the return of Christ does not mean that the cycles of days, weeks, months, seasons and years cease to exist in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture negates any such fallacy

Enjoy your posts. I am just curious, with the first heavens (atmosphere and the sun, moon, stars) being destroyed in a fervent heat ( 2 Peter 3:10) and being replaced by the New Jerusalem (which has no nights, moon or sun), how then are the "days, weeks or years" calculated?

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 means "all of us." When Paul prays, "may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless," he means, "your whole being." So we are composed of body, soul and spirit.
Our spiritual part was dead and now is alive. So we functioned up until that point with just a soul and body. I always thought of the soul as thr mind, will and emotions, along with any talents, thr invisible you. Unbelievers have a soul. Animals have a soul, but not a spirt. The spirit is our unique part of us that communes with God or is disabled.
Hebrews 4:12 tells us the soul and spirit are not the same - especially when they can be divided: For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of
soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
We are wonderfully made, intricately woven - highly integrated.
Soul - self consciousness (psuch)
Spirit - God consciousness ( pneuma)

Stephen said, Lord "receive my spirit" when he was stoned to death.

I do think the soul is part of the flesh and hence, that part of us must die and at death we are separated. The spirit part of us (new creature) is all that is good about us and goes to heaven.

Btw, this is not to go off topic brother, and I am almost always in agreement with you. It is just a common confusion amongst Christians, even among teachers when asked, they can't give a straight answer.

No, we're good on the important things. Nothing wrong with disagreeing on matters that aren't clear doctrinally. I do have a different view, but I also respect your view.

I think I've held your view for a long time until for some reason it got changed. I'll try to clarify what these changes are and why I changed them. It's okay if you don't agree.

I think the spirit, soul, and body are, as you say, parts of the whole being. I got much of my view on the "soul" from Watchman Nee, who taught that the Scriptures viewed the soul of man as the invisible part of man that has mind, will, and emotions.

He wrote a long book called "The Spiritual Man" that treated these things, but he was only 25 years old at the time he wrote this. Still, it was a very good book.

It is very difficult to see the mind of the soul as distinct from the human brain. What would you "think" without a brain? And yet, we are depicted as a person even with the body dead and gone. If we are still a person without the brain, we must still have reason, and we must therefore think even without a brain.

I began to believe that we, as former pagans, were dead in our spirits because, quite frankly, that is what I was taught. Being alienated from Christ, and not knowing the "mind of Christ," I figured they were right--we had to be spiritually dead. (To be honest, I've never been truly a "pagan," but have lived like a pagan for awhile.)

But over time I realized that in the pagan world there is a conscience and a sense of God. Though they are not redeemed and regenerated, they are able to make use of God's power and Spirit to do certain good works. This may take place without their even being conscious of it. And in the Bible we see this as well, with certain pagans doing some good things.

I cannot say, then, that pagans have no spirit or even a dead spirit. We've all been sentenced to death, eventually, but we are not technically dead until our bodies leave our souls.

So I now see our spirit as the element that gives our bodies existence, whether it is regenerated or not. It is not dead--just limited without relying on Jesus regularly for our good works.

What is the value in looking at things this way? I don't know--it's just an interesting subject. Carry on....

I might add this.

Nee saw the functions of the spirit as communion, intuition, and conscience. These are elements that he might have agreed with you were dead before we came to know Christ.

I think that the spirit, in giving us life and animating our bodies, still functions even without fully resorting to God's Word and Spirit. As long as we live our spirits are alive--they are just not "alive" in the Spirit, so to speak.

Until our spirits submit to God's Word and Spirit we cannot do anything of lasting value in God's Kingdom. But we can do a certain amount of good when we even unconsciously cooperate with God's Word.

And so, I do see our spirits as less "dead" and more "limited in functionality" when we are pagans. The fact the Word of God can "awaken" our spirits indicate our spirits are still alive and capable of receiving input from God.

The most important thing is not just enabling our spirits to respond to God's Spirit and Word. Even more important is that we *commit* to it by making a covenant relationship with God, accepting Him as Lord and Savior.

In this way we commit to living in the light, and our spirits are fully regenerated, equipped to serve God at any notice. We don't just do good works regularly--we emit Christ and reveal Him in our lives. His character becomes our character...hopefully.

 

[ewq1938]

Sounds like the JW,S and 7th Day Adventist false doctrine of "Annihilation" the wicked die and never suffer eternal torment?

Annihilation is an invention of the RCC.

In the first five centuries there were six known theological schools. Four of them taught that all men would eventually be rescued from Hell: these being the theological schools at Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa/Nisbis. One school, Ephesus, taught Annihilationism (that sinners are totally incinerated into nothingness in Hell). Only one theological school, Rome/Carthage taught eternal punishment. (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Universalism entry, p. 96, Baker Book House.)

Jehovah's witnesses did not exist at the time that Christians in Ephesus were teaching Annihilationism so what Jw's teach now is irrelevant to part of the Early church's belief in Annihilationism. Jw's are just copying something that was believed to be true by most of the Earth church. They are only trying to imitate a true early Church.

1/6 of the Early churches' theological schools taught eternal torment, ROME, where the birth of the Catholic church and Jesuits originated from. Rome is well known for paganism, perversions and heresies and the labeling of true doctrines as heresies. They are responsible for a massive number of Christian murders and torturing (no wonder they like doctrines that teach about torture). Most people consider that denomination to be antichrist and where the actual Antichrist will come from. Why believe in their doctrine??

4/6 of the Early churches' theological schools taught Universalism, Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa/Nisbis. Universalism is widely considered a heresy.


1/6 of the Early churches' theological schools taught eternal Annihilation, Ephesus. Not much can be said negatively of them. No group is sinless or perfect but I'd side with them over the other 5 theological schools.

 

[ewq1938]

Enjoy your posts. I am just curious, with the first heavens (atmosphere and the sun, moon, stars) being destroyed in a fervent heat ( 2 Peter 3:10) and being replaced by the New Jerusalem (which has no nights, moon or sun), how then are the "days, weeks or years" calculated?

NJ has no need of the sun but the sun (and moon) still exist plus the tree of life will bear a new fruit each month.