Many saints conflate birth with resurrection

[Zao is life]

Do not conflate birth with resurrection. Do not conflate being born of the Spirit with the resurrection of the body.

None of the many New Testament verses talking about resurrection are talking about anything else other than the resurrection of the body, and none of the Greek words speaking about the resurrection conflate this with being born of the Spirit. Here is the list:

The Resurrection of the Body

According to the New Testament we will be resurrected when Christ returns to take His seat as King of all the kingdoms of the world.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." Revelation 11:15.

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparchḗ), and afterward (épeita) they who are Christ's at His coming; then (eîta) is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power. for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death.

1 Timothy 3:10
"And let these also first (prōton) be proved; then (eîta) let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless."

There's a period of time appointed between the proton and the eita in the above verse.

Mark 4:17
"And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward (eîta), when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended."

There's a period of time between the proton and the eita in the above verse.

Mark 4:28
"For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first (prōton) the blade, then (eîta) the ear, after that (eîta) the full corn in the ear."

There's a period of time between the proton and the first eita, and between the first eita and the second eita in the above verse.

1 Timothy 2:13
"For Adam was first formed, then (eîta) Eve."

There was a period of time between the proton and the eita in the above verse.

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparchḗ), and afterward (épeita) they who are Christ's at His coming; then (eîta) is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power. for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death."

Not only is there a period of time between implied between the first-fruit (aparchḗ) and the afterward (épeita), but there is a period of time not merely implied, but actually declared in Revelation 20 between the afterward (épeita) and the eita (then) in 1 Corinthians 15:24.

Namely, a thousand years between the coming of Christ and the destruction of death.

Sadly however, many who believe in Jesus do not believe everything they read in the Bible, but attempt to interpret many passages in such a way as to force it to comply with another theology they believe in.

"But of this present time [nŷn] we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8

"but of this present time [nŷn] is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36.

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but of this present time [nŷn] is my kingdom not from hence." John 18:36.

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." Revelation 11:15.

The Kingdom of Christ is IN this world until He returns.

And the kingdoms of this world WILL BECOME His kingdoms when He returns.​

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do not conflate birth with resurrection. Do not conflate being born of the Spirit with the resurrection of the body.

None of the many New Testament verses talking about resurrection are talking about anything else other than the resurrection of the body, and none of the Greek words speaking about the resurrection conflate this with being born of the Spirit. Here is the list...​

Well yes, but there is also the metaphorical use of the terminology, being "raised up in new life," referring to the Christian life in the Spirit. Perhaps "metaphorical use" is not as appropriate as some kind of vicarious application of the term, being "raised with Christ," Christ being the one raised for us.

Eph 2.6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

But the point is well taken. Resurrection from the dead means just that. Christ was raised from the dead so that when we die we can also be raised from the dead.

According to the New Testament we will be resurrected when Christ returns to take His seat as King of all the kingdoms of the world.​

Yes.

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparchḗ), and afterward (épeita) they who are Christ's at His coming; then (eîta) is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power. for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet. The last enemy made to cease is death."

Not only is there a period of time between implied between the first-fruit (aparchḗ) and the afterward (épeita), but there is a period of time not merely implied, but actually declared in Revelation 20 between the afterward (épeita) and the eita (then) in 1 Corinthians 15:24.​

The time between the "first-fruit" of resurrection, namely Christ's resurrection, and the general resurrection, to take place at Christ's Return, is the NT period. It does not include the Millennium. Death is defeated at the 2nd Coming on behalf of the saints of the present age. Those who live mortal lives in the Millennium will still have to die and experience a 2nd Resurrection.

Namely, a thousand years between the coming of Christ and the destruction of death.​

The Millennium is not what 1 Cor 15.22-26 was talking about. But I do believe that the same process will take place for them as it will for us at Christ's 2nd Coming.

 

[Zao is life]

The time between the "first-fruit" of resurrection, namely Christ's resurrection, and the general resurrection, to take place at Christ's Return, is the NT period. It does not include the Millennium. Death is defeated at the 2nd Coming on behalf of the saints of the present age.

* Revelation 20:4-6 speaks about the 2nd death having no authority over those who had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name.

* Revelation 7:14-17 makes the same promises to those who came out from great tribulation and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb that Revelation 21:3-4 does to the bride of Christ.

* In Mark 10:28-30 Jesus promised eternal life in the world to come to those who had left all to follow Him.

* In Matthew 19:28 Jesus told those who had left all to follow Him that in the regeneration, when He sits on the throne of His glory, they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

The promises to those who overcome:

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)
(5) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(6) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(7) They will have written on them the name of God, Christ's new name, and the name of the city of God (Revelation 3:12)
(8) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(9) They will reign on the earth (Revelation 5:10)
(10) They will reign with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:6)
(11) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)
(12) They will reign forever and ever (Revelation 22:5)

The theme that runs through the Revelation is that those who overcome will not be hurt by the 2nd death.

@Davidpt @ewq1938 I would like to know what other Premils (including yourselves) think regarding what the word "overcome" means:

Is it referring to all who were in Christ and who fell asleep in Christ but had it easy following Christ during their lives (who as we know will also be resurrected from the dead when Christ returns),

or is it referring only to those who did not have it so easy and had to face a test, and it is these who are promised that they will reign over the rest of the resurrected saints during the millennium, i.e "the twelve tribes of Israel"?

I'm not too sure about who it is who join the Gog-Magog armies at the close of the millennium, because the New Testament tells us that Christ alone is immortal, and He alone has (eternal) life in Himself.

Our immortality after the resurrection will be in Christ, just as Adam's was in the Garden of Eden, where the words that ended with ".. you shall surely die" implied that Adam, though able to eat of the tree of life and live forever, did not have eternal life in himself the way the Word of God does,

and the words "You will not surely die" implied that Adam had eternal life | immortality in himself, and was a lie.

So at the close of a thousand years in "paradise" we are told that Satan will be released again and will go out to deceive the nations again.

Since our immortality is not in ourselves but in Christ, and since the New Testament promises those who overcome, as well as those who left all to follow Christ and those who came out from great tribulation
that the second death will have no power over them and that they will reign over the nations and over the twelve tribes, why would it need to be mortals in that rebellion at the close of the thousand years?

The second death can only occur following the resurrection of those whose fate is the second death, IMO.

It's like Davidpt mentioned, Jesus said that His reward will be with Him when He comes, which seems to leave no mortals alive after He comes - the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years are fulfilled (Revelation 20:5).

Those who live mortal lives in the Millennium will still have to die and experience a 2nd Resurrection.

The Millennium is not what 1 Cor 15.22-26 was talking about.

It's talking about the resurrection of those who are Christ's when He comes (not anyone else's) and makes it obvious that at some point following this, Christ will hand the Kingdom back to God the Father and death will be finally destroyed after the final judgement. Revelation 20 tells us when death will be destroyed - so 1 Cor.15:22-26 is indeed including the millennium period, even if Paul was not aware of any millennium to follow the return of Christ (because the Revelation was given only after Paul had already died).

But I do believe that the same process will take place for them as it will for us at Christ's 2nd Coming.

What if they are judged when Christ returns and do not live again until the thousand years are complete, and it's resurrected saints believing the "You will not surely die" lie that are deceived by Satan, like Adam was in the Garden of Eden?

Who is reigning - all the saints, even those who had fallen asleep in Christ after having lived easy enough lives?

 

[Truth7t7]

The Kingdom of Christ is IN this world until He returns.

And the kingdoms of this world WILL BECOME His kingdoms when He returns.​

This earth will be "dissolved" by "Fire" in final judgment at the Lord's return, you're not going to remove the very clear words below

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Zao is life]

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

When does Revelation 20:9 say the fire will come down - if you quote only the text? At the beginning of, or the close of the thousand years? If you quote only the text?

When does the thousand years commence according to Revelation 20:4-6 - before the beast ascended from the abyss, or after the beast ascended from the abyss - if you quote only the text and not what you think the text "means"?

 

[Truth7t7]

When does Revelation 20:9 say the fire will come down - if you quote only the text? At the beginning of, or the close of the thousand years? If you quote only the text?

When does the thousand years commence according to Revelation 20:4-6 - before the beast ascended from the abyss, or after the beast ascended from the abyss - if you quote only the text and not what you think the text "means"?

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

When does Revelation 20:9 say the fire will come down - if you quote only the text? At the beginning of, or the close of the thousand years? If you quote only the text?

When does the thousand years commence according to Revelation 20:4-6 - before the beast ascended from the abyss, or after the beast ascended from the abyss - if you quote only the text and not what you think the text "means"?

Many falsely believe and teach the book of Revelation is in Chronological order "Wrong"

The book of Revelation is in parallel teachings of same events, chapter 16, 19, 20 same final battle in gathering the Nation's, parallel teachings, same event

Parallel Teachings Od (The End) Below

When the 7th angel sounds in verse 15 below it's (The End)

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Below when the 7th vial is poured out its (The End)

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Parallel Teachings Of The Final Judgement Below

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their
Works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Zao is life]

Many falsely believe and teach the book of Revelation is in Chronological order "Wrong"

The above began a commentary based on an interpretation of the text. Not answering the question:

When does Revelation 20:9 say the fire will come down - if you quote only the text? At the beginning of, or the close of the thousand years? If you quote only the text?

When does the thousand years commence according to Revelation 20:4-6 - before the beast ascended from the abyss, or after the beast ascended from the abyss - if you quote only the text and not what you think the text "means"?

 

[Truth7t7]

The above began a commentary based on an interpretation of the text. Not answering the question:

You didn't answer the fact that the book of Revelation is in Parallel teachings of same events, not chronological as you believe and teach

The book of Revelation is in parallel teachings of same events, chapter 16, 19, 20 same final battle in gathering the Nation's, parallel teachings, same event

Parallel Teachings Of (The End) Below

When the 7th angel sounds in verse 15 below it's (The End)

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Below when the 7th vial is poured out its (The End)

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Parallel Teachings Of The Final Judgement Below

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their
Works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Zao is life]

You didn't answer the fact that the book of Revelation is in Parallel teachings of same events, not chronological as you believe and teach

The book of Revelation is in parallel teachings of same events, chapter 16, 19, 20 same final battle in gathering the Nation's, parallel teachings, same event

Parallel Teachings Of (The End) Below

When the 7th angel sounds in verse 15 below it's (The End)

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Below when the 7th vial is poured out its (The End)

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Parallel Teachings Of The Final Judgement Below

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their
Works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You never answered the question again. You gave a commentary based on your interpretation of what the text says again. Here's the question again:

When does Revelation 20:9 say the fire will come down - if you quote only the text? At the beginning of, or the close of the thousand years? If you quote only the text?

When does the thousand years commence according to Revelation 20:4-6 - before the beast ascended from the abyss, or after the beast ascended from the abyss - if you quote only the text and not what you think the text "means"?

I want you to tell me what the text says. Not what you think it "means".

 

[PinSeeker]

...there is also the metaphorical use of the terminology, being "raised up in new life," referring to the Christian life in the Spirit. Perhaps "metaphorical use" is not as appropriate as some kind of vicarious application of the term, being "raised with Christ," Christ being the one raised for us.

Eph 2.6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

But the point is well taken. Resurrection from the dead means just that. Christ was raised from the dead so that when we die we can also be raised from the dead.

Undoubtedly true. Our bodily resurrection at the end of the age, at Christ's return, will be just as His was. Yes, this resurrection of Ephesians 2:6 is a real thing, not of the physical body, but of the spirit. We were dead in our sin/trespasses and have been raised and are seated in spirit with Christ in heaven. This is the first resurrection John speaks of in Revelation 20. This is also, to speak of the reverse, the way Christ is with us now ~ in the Spirit ~ just as He said He would be at the end of Matthew (28:19).

The time between the "first-fruit" of resurrection, namely Christ's resurrection, and the general resurrection, to take place at Christ's Return, is the NT period.

Actually, Randy, I would clarify that the end of the current age is when God's Israel has been brought to completion, when all of God's elect have been saved/born again of the Spirit/resurrected in Christ... when all God chose before the foundation of the world have been placed in Christ.

It does not include the Millennium.

No, it is God's millennium, the period symbolized in Revelation 20 by "the thousand years" ~ the time God has allotted for the above to happen.

Those who live mortal lives in the Millennium will still have to die and experience a 2nd Resurrection.

Absolutely not. All will be bodily/physically resurrected at Christ's return. The second resurrection will actually not be experienced by those elect of God who are still alive at the time of Christ's return; there will be no need, as they never experienced the first death. Nevertheless, having already been converted to Christ, having experienced the first resurrection and therefore being in Christ, they will not be subject to the second death.

The Millennium is not what 1 Cor 15.22-26 was talking about.

Agreed.

But I do believe that the same process will take place for them as it will for us at Christ's 2nd Coming.

Well, yes, but there will be no need for them to be physically resurrected (experience the second resurrection), because, again, they will still be alive and have never experienced the first death. This is what Paul is telling the Thessalonian believers in 1 Thessalonians 4, that if they ~ and by extension we ~ are still alive at the time of Christ's return, they will not be excluded from glorification. And also, when He returns, He will bring with Him all believers who have previously died; they too will not be excluded from glorification.

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Truth7t7]

You never answered the question again. You gave a commentary based on your interpretation of what the text says again. Here's the question again:


I want you to tell me what the text says. Not what you think it "means".

Once Again

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Randy Kluth]

* Revelation 20:4-6 speaks about the 2nd death having no authority over those who had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name.

* Revelation 7:14-17 makes the same promises to those who came out from great tribulation and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb that Revelation 21:3-4 does to the bride of Christ.

* In Mark 10:28-30 Jesus promised eternal life in the world to come to those who had left all to follow Him.

* In Matthew 19:28 Jesus told those who had left all to follow Him that in the regeneration, when He sits on the throne of His glory, they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Not sure why you're stating these bullet points?

The promises to those who overcome:

Not sure why you're stating these promises to "overcomers?"

The theme that runs through the Revelation is that those who overcome will not be hurt by the 2nd death.

Yes, those who are Saved will not suffer eternal judgment, being cast into the Lake of Fire. That is a removal from God's paradisical Kingdom on earth in fellowship with the Lord. This is standard Christian teaching.

@Davidpt @ewq1938 I would like to know what other Premils (including yourselves) think regarding what the word "overcome" means:

Is it referring to all who were in Christ and who fell asleep in Christ but had it easy following Christ during their lives (who as we know will also be resurrected from the dead when Christ returns),

or is it referring only to those who did not have it so easy and had to face a test, and it is these who are promised that they will reign over the rest of the resurrected saints during the millennium, i.e "the twelve tribes of Israel"?

I know that some think that the 1st Resurrection is focused only on those who were beheaded by the Beast. However, I think that is just the immediate focus, which is the more immediate history out of which the 1st Resurrection takes place.

The 1st Resurrection takes place, I believe, for *all Christians,* and not just for those beheaded by the Beast. The martyrs are simply an outstanding example of who Christians are, having turned away from the world system and are persecuted and rejected by it.

All Christians who are living truly for Christ suffer this rejection in one form or another. Nobody escapes with an "easy life."

Living in the Spirit is the absolute opposite of living for Self, the World, and the Devil. There are, however, varying degrees of opposition, from ourselves, the World, and Satan. But clearly, we can be attacked on all fronts, socially, health-wise, and politically.

I'm not too sure about who it is who join the Gog-Magog armies at the close of the millennium, because the New Testament tells us that Christ alone is immortal, and He alone has (eternal) life in Himself.

Immortality has to do, I think, with receiving glorified bodies. Only Christ has that presently. The dead saints are presently bodiless spirits who have to await Christ's 2nd Coming for us before receiving glorified, immortal bodies.

Gog and Magog are a mystery to me, though I have thoughts and opinions. It appears to be a large body of nations who in the East rebel against Christianity. This may happen twice, as far as I know?

It may happen directly preceding the Lord's Return, as part of the conflict at Armageddon. And it may happen again at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ. Who they are, and whether this is so, I'm not sure?

Our immortality after the resurrection will be in Christ, just as Adam's was in the Garden of Eden, where the words that ended with ".. you shall surely die" implied that Adam, though able to eat of the tree of life and live forever, did not have eternal life in himself the way the Word of God does,

and the words "You will not surely die" implied that Adam had eternal life | immortality in himself, and was a lie.

I think Adam had a different kind of immortality in the beginning, being sinless and capable of obtaining a lock on that immortality with access to the Tree of Life. But the Tree of Life indicated, for me, that unless Adam availed himself of its fruit he could obtain a knowledge that leads to mortality and death.

NT immortality is different inasmuch as we are mortal, unlike Adam in his original pristine condition. Our spirits will live eternally, and we may obtain resurrection bodies, but in our present mortal bodies we must die. We must cast off these corrupted husks of human flesh because it is polluted with the desire to live independent of God's Word.

So at the close of a thousand years in "paradise" we are told that Satan will be released again and will go out to deceive the nations again.

Since our immortality is not in ourselves but in Christ, and since the New Testament promises those who overcome, as well as those who left all to follow Christ and those who came out from great tribulation

This is confusing for me because when talking about Satan's release at the end of the Millennium you seem to be suggesting that we, Christians, do not yet have immortality in ourselves? Obviously, that cannot be true if at his 2nd Coming Christ gave to his Church (of the present age) immortality in themselves!

We are to be given new indestructible bodies, which suggests that *they have it,* and not just Christ. But it doesn't mean that they live independant of Christ himself.

that the second death will have no power over them and that they will reign over the nations and over the twelve tribes, why would it need to be mortals in that rebellion at the close of the thousand years?

Those who will judge the 12 tribes of Israel are Messianic/Christian Jews who I think will cast judgment upon their own time, which at that time only had a residual remnant of 12 distinct tribes. The tribal distinctions had largely disappeared at that time, and the terminology only suggests that they were the original group that had been destroyed following the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.

In other words, these Messianic Jews were to judge those who had persecuted them in their own lifetime. And they could also bring pardon for those they saw had converted to Christ.

Christians in other countries will do the same for their own countries, based on their own experiences. We judge what we experience today. We are not going to be judges over countries as though dictators--many of us don't even have a single country!

The second death can only occur following the resurrection of those whose fate is the second death, IMO.

I understand the point. The 1st Resurrection for believers, and the 2nd Resurrection for unbelievers, right?

It's like Davidpt mentioned, Jesus said that His reward will be with Him when He comes, which seems to leave no mortals alive after He comes - the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years are fulfilled (Revelation 20:5).

I suppose you can read my response to David?

It's talking about the resurrection of those who are Christ's when He comes (not anyone else's) and makes it obvious that at some point following this, Christ will hand the Kingdom back to God the Father and death will be finally destroyed after the final judgement. Revelation 20 tells us when death will be destroyed - so 1 Cor.15:22-26 is indeed including the millennium period, even if Paul was not aware of any millennium to follow the return of Christ (because the Revelation was given only after Paul had already died).

If Death is defeated at Christ's 2nd Coming, then this cannot take place at the end of the Millennium. David is Premill, which separates the 2nd Coming and the end of the Millennial Age. I believe Death is defeated at Christ's 2nd Coming.

What if they are judged when Christ returns and do not live again until the thousand years are complete, and it's resurrected saints believing the "You will not surely die" lie that are deceived by Satan, like Adam was in the Garden of Eden?

Resurrected saints are glorified and will never again suffer corruption, being given "immortal bodies." Sin is completely removed from our mind and heart.

Who is reigning - all the saints, even those who had fallen asleep in Christ after having lived easy enough lives?

The Kingdom of God begins to rule the Mortal World at Christ's 2nd Coming. This means that the whole world is exposed to the Christian idea that all must be subject to God.

But the forced submission of the world to the Christian Kingdom does not mean that it is a completely willful submission. Many submit only of necessity, only to rebel later.

 

[ewq1938]

@Davidpt @ewq1938 I would like to know what other Premils (including yourselves) think regarding what the word "overcome" means:

Is it referring to all who were in Christ and who fell asleep in Christ but had it easy following Christ during their lives (who as we know will also be resurrected from the dead when Christ returns),

or is it referring only to those who did not have it so easy and had to face a test, and it is these who are promised that they will reign over the rest of the resurrected saints during the millennium, i.e "the twelve tribes of Israel"?

“To him that gains the victory, or is a conqueror” is an overcomer. It's anyone who is saved and makes it to the resurrection and judgement of immortal life.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Undoubtedly true. Our bodily resurrection at the end of the age, at Christ's return, will be just as His was. Yes, this resurrection of Ephesians 2:6 is a real thing, not of the physical body, but of the spirit. We were dead in our sin/trespasses and have been raised and are seated in spirit with Christ in heaven. This is the first resurrection John speaks of in Revelation 20. This is also, to speak of the reverse, the way Christ is with us now ~ in the Spirit ~ just as He said He would be at the end of Matthew (28:19).


Actually, Randy, I would clarify that the end of the current age is when God's Israel has been brought to completion, when all of God's elect have been saved/born again of the Spirit/resurrected in Christ... when all God chose before the foundation of the world have been placed in Christ.


No, it is God's millennium, the period symbolized in Revelation 20 by "the thousand years" ~ the time God has allotted for the above to happen.


Absolutely not. All will be bodily/physically resurrected at Christ's return. The second resurrection will actually not be experienced by those elect of God who are still alive at the time of Christ's return; there will be no need, as they never experienced the first death. Nevertheless, having already been converted to Christ, having experienced the first resurrection and therefore being in Christ, they will not be subject to the second death.


Agreed.


Well, yes, but there will be no need for them to be physically resurrected (experience the second resurrection), because, again, they will still be alive and have never experienced the first death. This is what Paul is telling the Thessalonian believers in 1 Thessalonians 4, that if they ~ and by extension we ~ are still alive at the time of Christ's return, they will not be excluded from glorification. And also, when He returns, He will bring with Him all believers who have previously died; they too will not be excluded from glorification.

Grace and peace to you, Randy.

Grace and peace to you.

I hear and understand your viewpoint, and respect it. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Zao is life]

This is confusing for me because when talking about Satan's release at the end of the Millennium you seem to be suggesting that we, Christians, do not yet have immortality in ourselves?

Only God has immortality in Himself. God is our Creator. We are creature.

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

John 1:4 states that life [zōḗ] is in the Word of God. John 1:14 states that the Word became a human being and lived among us. This is Christ.

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see.
To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16,

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

Both Genesis 2:7 and John 3:8 speak of the Spirit of God breathing His (eternal) life into man, and God alone is immortal, God alone has life in Himself. It follows that eternal zōḗ (eternal life | immortality) is in Christ alone.

Therefore to say that Christians are "given immortality" is a statement that expresses only half the truth. The other (most important) half is what you see underlined in the quote below:

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Only in the Word is life. (John 1:4).

Our immortality is in Christ, the Creator, who alone is immortal according to the scriptures, and who alone has life in Himself, according to the scriptures. (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26).

God said to Adam:

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." (Genesis 2:17, literal translation from the Hebrew).

It implies that Adam (the creature) did not have immortality in himself, and this therefore gives us the knowledge that we do not have - and can never have - immortality | eternal life in ourselves.

If we do not abide in the Word of God, then we will die. "You will not surely die" is a lie from the beginning.

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Our immortality is not, and never will be in ourselves, any more than Adam's was when he believed the words "You shall not surely die." The immortality that we put on, which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, is Christ's immortality that we share in through His Spirit (the breath of God).

By emphasizing only half the truth, we will feed our own minds with a false narrative of "forever immortal because we (the creature) have been given immortality" (as in "you will not surely die").

The idea implies (falsely) that in the resurrection, our (the creature, the sons of Adam's) immortality is going to exist in ourselves, i.e in the creature, rather than alone in Christ, the Word in whom is life, through whom all things were created, and in whom all things consist.

The resurrection of the body which we live in hope (blessed assurance) of, does not change this - and every single verse in the New Testament talking about 'resurrection' is talking about the resurrection of the body. It's the resurrection from Adam's death (which is the first death, and which came via Adam to all men, because all sinned), but it is the breath of God (the Spirit of God) that gives life.

Immortality is in God alone. We are given immortality by His Spirit in us (the breath of God), and our immortality is in Christ who alone has life in Himself, who alone is immortal.

It's always been about the Word we abide in:

".. you will surely die".
"You will not surely die."

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.

Being alive in our resurrected bodies is not going to change this.

 

[Davidpt]

@Davidpt @ewq1938 I would like to know what other Premils (including yourselves) think regarding what the word "overcome" means:

Is it referring to all who were in Christ and who fell asleep in Christ but had it easy following Christ during their lives (who as we know will also be resurrected from the dead when Christ returns),

or is it referring only to those who did not have it so easy and had to face a test, and it is these who are promised that they will reign over the rest of the resurrected saints during the millennium, i.e "the twelve tribes of Israel"?

One way to maybe determine this is by looking at some other examples. Such as...

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Obviously, if this happens to anybody instead, regardless whether they had it easier in life as opposed to another saint where life was not so easy---I will blot out his name out of the book of life---this means they get cast into the LOF, obviously.

But the text doesn't say He actually blots anyone's name out of the book of life, many will argue, mainly meaning those in the Once Saved Always Saved camp. Except they are not using good common sense here since there has to be an opposite of this---he that overcometh, the opposite of that being this, he that overcometh not.

IOW, He that overcometh not, the same shall not be clothed in white raiment; and I will blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will not confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Compared with.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It is plain silly to insist that if one fails to overcome, it still equals the same thing as, if one does overcome.

What now is the argument? That it is impossible to not overcome, thus everyone overcomes, regardless? IOW, let's just try and find another way to twist the truth some more in order to make it agree with our doctrines that we place above the truth.

To answer your question then, to overcome is equally applicable to the saints that had it it easier in life while other saints that had it harder in life. The difference probably being that the latter receives more rewards than the former.

BTW, what I mainly mean by having it easier in life as opposed to another saint where life was not as easy, would be a scenario such as the following. Depending where one is living in the world at the time, it can literally get you hunted down and even killed for professing to be a Christian. While here in the USA, for example, it has never gotten to that point, at least not yet anyway. Therefore, it wouldn't be fair for God to decide that one doesn't fit one that has overcome unless that one fits the former. IOW, there's numerous other ways that one has to overcome that doesn't involve having to be hunted down and even killed for professing to be a Christian.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Only God has immortality in Himself. God is our Creator. We are creature.

I understand that that is how *you're* defining "immortality." But I do not believe that that is how the *Bible* is defining "immortality!" If you are using the word wrong, applying the wrong sense of the word, you will not properly understand and communicate what the Bible is saying about the subject.

As I said, the Bible defines "immortality" as our receiving new glorified bodies that are sinless and unable to experience either physical death or the "2nd Death." *We* are the ones who receive these new bodies. Hence, it is not something only God has "in Himself."

Rather, it is a gift of God to us, His creatures, when we have chosen to live in His presence, embracing Him as our eternal Lord. We are outfitted for living in His presence by being given these new bodies, sharing in God's holiness.

Yes, the immortality comes from God. But it is necessarily given to us so that we can share in both His holiness and His longevity. We must not make up definitions for words used in the Bible. We must get our definitions for those words *from the Bible.*

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

John 1:4 states that life [zōḗ] is in the Word of God. John 1:14 states that the Word became a human being and lived among us. This is Christ.

Yes, spiritual life that God shares with Man comes from His Word. But it is a fact that what God has in His Word He is also able to share with us. He not only shares His spiritual life with us, but He has promised us new bodies capable of exhibiting that life constantly.

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see.
To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16,

So I see where you get your definition, from a single verse that is being seen in isolation. You need to compare Scripture with Scripture to understand the nuances of a single, isolated statement. We are being told here that Christ is the exclusive source of our own immortality, and not that he will have it alone and never give us immortality. Being that he is the exclusive source of immortality we must get our own immortality from him.

Do you think that because this verse says that Christ lives in "unapproachable light" that nobody could have ever met him, or that nobody will ever be able to meet him again? If so, that is not what the verse is saying. Obviously, Jesus' Disciples met him and knew him, and they will meet him again.

What this verse is saying is that Christ's divine root is in something transcendent and in fact, infinite. As such, that is a part of Christ that we can never meet or expect to attain to. We would have to be Deity to meet Deity in the realm of infinity.

But we can experience Christ's immortality--just not in the realm of infinity. We obtain a finite immortality, and not an infinite, divine immortality. I hope you can see the difference? We do not *become God,* but we partake of His divine nature as finite, human beings who are able to become like Him in His image.

God said to Adam:

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." (Genesis 2:17, literal translation from the Hebrew).

It implies that Adam (the creature) did not have immortality in himself, and this therefore gives us the knowledge that we do not have - and can never have - immortality | eternal life in ourselves.

You are here defining "immortality" as the inability to die. And that part is true, though it does not mean that mortal Man cannot receive it. Since Man could die, he is not "immortal," or like God who cannot cease to exist.

But this is not saying that Man cannot *become immortal.* Even if Man has died, he can obtain immortality from God, who as you say alone possesses it. The only people who cannot become immortal are those who have rejected it from God and are to be consigned to the 2nd Death. They are raised back up in mortal bodies that cannot die again physically, but do die a 2nd Death of sorts.

Our immortality is not, and never will be in ourselves...

The argument, for me, is not whether immortality comes from God, but whether we can receive it in ourselves. It always comes from God but is shared with us, just as spiritual life comes from Him and is shared with us. We can be righteous as He is righteous because Christ has legally and actually enabled that for us.

By emphasizing only half the truth, we will feed our own minds with a false narrative of "forever immortal because we (the creature) have been given immortality" (as in "you will not surely die")....

Being alive in our resurrected bodies is not going to change this.

We are resurrected and put on immortal bodies, which we do receive from Christ. This is our immortality. It does not mean that it did not come from Christ nor stops being from him. You need to use your words properly, and not from a single, isolated verse. It has caused you to miss the import of Bible teaching on this subject.

 

[Zao is life]

One way to maybe determine this is by looking at some other examples. Such as...

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Obviously, if this happens to anybody instead, regardless whether they had it easier in life as opposed to another saint where life was not so easy---I will blot out his name out of the book of life---this means they get cast into the LOF, obviously.

But the text doesn't say He actually blots anyone's name out of the book of life, many will argue, mainly meaning those in the Once Saved Always Saved camp. Except they are not using good common sense here since there has to be an opposite of this---he that overcometh, the opposite of that being this, he that overcometh not.

IOW, He that overcometh not, the same shall not be clothed in white raiment; and I will blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will not confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Compared with.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It is plain silly to insist that if one fails to overcome, it still equals the same thing as, if one does overcome.

What now is the argument? That it is impossible to not overcome, thus everyone overcomes, regardless? IOW, let's just try and find another way to twist the truth some more in order to make it agree with our doctrines that we place above the truth.

To answer your question then, to overcome is equally applicable to the saints that had it it easier in life while other saints that had it harder in life. The difference probably being that the latter receives more rewards than the former.

BTW, what I mainly mean by having it easier in life as opposed to another saint where life was not as easy, would be a scenario such as the following. Depending where one is living in the world at the time, it can literally get you hunted down and even killed for professing to be a Christian. While here in the USA, for example, it has never gotten to that point, at least not yet anyway. Therefore, it wouldn't be fair for God to decide that one doesn't fit one that has overcome unless that one fits the former. IOW, there's numerous other ways that one has to overcome that doesn't involve having to be hunted down and even killed for professing to be a Christian.

Thank you. Solid answer. Very thoroughly thought about, and I agree with everything you say in your post - but believe it or not, it still doesn't 100% answer my question.

Let me put it this way then: Is it possible that there will be only "nations of those who are saved" during the millennium but there will be a hierarchy of authority where some resurrected saints will be ruling over many others? i.e "ruling over "the twelve tribes of Israel" / the (saved) nations?

Why would "the nations" have to be mortals?

 

[Zao is life]

We are resurrected and put on immortal bodies, which we do receive from Christ. This is our immortality. It does not mean that it did not come from Christ nor stops being from him. You need to use your words properly, and not from a single, isolated verse. It has caused you to miss the import of Bible teaching on this subject.

I doubt it and I disagree with your reasoning. It looks to me like you have eisegetically inserted a meaning of the words eternal life and immortality into scripture that does not exist.

God created man as body, soul and spirit. Eternal life and immortality, Biblically, is the opposite of the death that came to Adam and his descendants through sin. No more or less than that, despite any added "Christian" theology.

Western Christianity and Greek Orthodox Christianity have been good at adding gnostic values to scripture (in this case the equation 1-1+1=1). It has caused you to add another value exported from ancient Greek and Roman gnostic religious thought into the Biblical meaning of eternal life and immortality, and importing the values you've added to the meaning of immortality and of eternal life.

--- In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ---

After bring order to the earth and creating life on the earth God the Father, the Spirit and the Logos of God purposed in Himself,

--- Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth. --- (Genesis 1:1-2, 26 & 28).

Adam did not possess his own immortality. It was the breath of God breathed into him that caused him to become a living soul. God breathed eternal life into Adam. The creature does not and cannot possess either eternal life or immortality in himself. To say so is to imply that "you will not surely die".

Man is composed of body, soul and spirit and was not created to die and then go to heaven when he dies.

Immortality | eternal life on the earth minus Immortality | eternal life on the earth (when Adam fell) plus Immortality | eternal on the earth = Immortality | eternal life on the earth.

1 - 1 + 1 = 1.

The creature does not and cannot possess either eternal life or immortality in himself. To say so is to imply that "you will not surely die".

Any additional to the above meaning of immortality | eternal life is alien to the Hebrew faith of Abraham and the only Biblical meaning of the words.