Many saints conflate birth with resurrection

[Randy Kluth]

I doubt it and I disagree with your reasoning. It looks to me like you have eisegetically inserted a meaning of the words eternal life and immortality into scripture that does not exist.

It should be easy for you to prove me wrong, just by going to Scripture and showing I'm wrong when I say:

1) Eternal Life is what we obtain when we accept our legal justification at the cross. It is not the completion of the process of our entire physical redemption, but it is the beginning of our eternal relationship with Christ.
2) Immortality is when we experience physical redemption, when we are raised from the dead and obtain brand new glorified immortal bodies.

If you doubt this, or if you disagree with this, fine. Just prove I'm wrong from the Scriptures and I'll go your way. This isn't a matter of winning an argument, but rather, a matter of my trying to be in agreement with God's Word, with His Scriptures.

If we're to discuss Scriptures we have to understand how Scriptures are using and defining words. "Immortality" and "glorification" for me mean basically the same thing--our physical resurrection and receiving new glorified bodies. Please prove me wrong?

God created man as body, soul and spirit. Eternal life and immortality, Biblically, is the opposite of the death that came to Adam and his descendants through sin. No more or less than that, despite any added "Christian" theology.

Actually, just stating something and understanding it are two separate things. When God created and encased a human spirit, putting it into a human body, that spirit became a human soul. The soul, therefore, is a spiritual entity designed to be encased in a physical body. It may survive without the body, but it is intended by God to live forever in a body.

Death is the separation of the physical body from the human soul. It was a punishment for sin, to stop physical acts of sin from being committed. New bodies have to be created to prevent this manifestation of sin in bodies originally given freedom to do good or evil.

"Immortality" generally speaks not of all of these new bodies, but only of the glorified bodies of the saints. They will not suffer the "2nd Death," which is a kind of exile of the new bodies of the Rebels.

They are not viewed as "immortal" strictly because they lose connection with spiritual life and blessing in the presence of God. They don't die physically, but they die spiritually, in relationship to God.

I know some of this is speculative. But we're just showing our own individual perspective for purposes of interest, right?

Adam did not possess his own immortality. It was the breath of God breathed into him that caused him to become a living soul. God breathed eternal life into Adam.

Where did you get the part about God "breathing eternal life into Adam?" The Scriptures say God created Man by breathing a human spirit into his physical body. He created Man *by His Word.*

It does not say, however, that this breath of life was "Eternal Life." You've added that part, and so I would question that. "Eternal Life" in the Scriptures refers to what God has given mortal man through the legal work of Christ on the cross. It is the promise and hope of a complete redemption, which begins with our initial faith in Christ.

The creature does not and cannot possess either eternal life or immortality in himself. To say so is to imply that "you will not surely die".

To become "immortal" people must put on new immortal bodies. You are using a single Bible verse out of context to establish your notion that people cannot become "immortal." That verse is only saying that only God is the source of immortality for Man. You have misconstrued that to mean that God cannot give immortality to Man, which is the opposite of what Christian Salvation means!

Man is composed of body, soul and spirit and was not created to die and then go to heaven when he dies.

Death is when the soul loses its physical body. The spirit does not die. "Spiritual Death," or the "2nd Death," is when the Lost souls receive their eternal bodies but are separated from God's blessed presence forever.

The saints do go to heaven to obtain their new glorified bodies. But the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven at some point and we will inherit the earth--not remain in heaven forever. The earth was made to be our eternal home.

But you can believe as you will. Our discussion will hopefully lead us both back not just to the Scriptures but also to the full understanding of what they mean?

 

[Davidpt]

Death is when the soul loses its physical body. The spirit does not die. "Spiritual Death," or the "2nd Death," is when the Lost souls receive their eternal bodies but are separated from God's blessed presence forever.

What Scriptures lead you to believe that they receive eternal bodies? Especially when considering the following?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Obviously, the tree of life is linked with immortality. IOW, humans can't have one without the other. And interestingly enough, the tree of life is still in the picture post the 2nd coming, and that it is in the paradise of God, thus the new Jerusalem. Except the LOF is not the paradise of God, the new Jerusalem. How then do these cast into the LOF partake of the tree of life so that they too can logically live forever?

 

[Zao is life]

The saints do go to heaven to obtain their new glorified bodies.

Randy please note that if I bold or increase the font size below I'm not fighting but only emphasising.

God's creation (man) is comprised of one [ body, soul|mind|life, and spirit ].

You cannot Biblically separate immortality|eternal life one from another because Biblically immortality|eternal life is not "only spiritual", nor is it "only physical", nor is it "only of the soul|mind"life".

You will not receive a glorified body before the return of Christ and the day of the general resurrection of the dead. Such a notion is not biblical.

Biblically immortality|eternal life (zoe) is interwoven with life in a body (zao) that will never die, and is never separated from the eternal life|immortality of the body.

The scriptures never mean anything else: God's creation (man) is comprised of one [ body, soul|mind|life, and spirit ].

The word psychḗ is used interchangeably in the New Testament in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual | individuals, while at the same time making a clear distinction which is consistent throughout the New Testament between the body and the soul, and the soul and the spirit.

Neither the soul nor the spirit have another body, OR RECEIVE another body. Spirit is spirit. Your soul and spirit do not have another body now, and your spirit will not "receive another body" when your body dies. This is why the resurrection of the body from the dead is an integral part of the gospel.

The breath of God|Spirit of God being breathed into man is indeed eternal life|immortality. Without it Adam would never have had eternal life|immortality - and Adam's body died and began to slowly die when the breath of God left him.

We inherited this death of the body and separation from the life of God from Adam and if we are not born of the Spirit we will not inherit the resurrection of the body which has come about through the resurrection of the last Adam (Christ):

(1) and (2) below go together and cannot be separated. It is not two gospels, but one:

(1) -- The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. -- John 3:8

(2) --- For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming; --- 1 Corinthians 15:21-23.

1 Corinthians 15:44:
"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

The notion that the spirit that will go to be with Christ when the believer dies "will have a body" is unbiblical and based in gnostic thought. You will be limbless until the resurrection of your body from the dead in the day it is raised a body (soma) spiritual (pneumatokos):

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
"For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive [záō] and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God.

And the dead [νεκρός nekrós] in Christ shall rise [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] first [πρῶτον prōton]. Then we who are alive [záō] and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

In the long list of verses where it's found, the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body. The word záō is never used in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body (therefore to say that the life of Adam or the life of humans is experienced in the body should sound like a ridiculous statement about the obvious to all Christians).

Similarly, the Greek words that talk about the resurrection | rising again from death, i.e:

anástasis, égersis, anístēmi, and egeírō,

are always talking about, and referring to the resurrection of the body (the body that died and became the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we are taught will be raised. There is no "spiritual" resurrection mentioned in the New Testament - only birth by the Spirit, and through birth by the Spirit, being quickened (made alive again body, soul and spirit) with Christ, and bodily resurrected with Christ's bodily resurrection.

Biblically immortality|eternal life is interwoven with life in a body that will never die. It's not "only spiritual", nor is it "only physical", nor is it "only of the soul|mind"life". God's creation (man) is comprised of one [ body, soul|mind|life, and spirit ].

Humans have a soul|mind and a spirit and there is awareness after death of the body, and the spirit of those who are dead in Christ goes to be with Christ - but the Bible tells us that immortality is in Christ alone.

"You will not surely die" is a lie.

Spirit is spirit.

A newer lie is: "Your spirit will receive (another) glorified body separate to the body that God created for Adam - the body that died - even before the resurrection of your body from the dead at the time of Christ's second coming".

Immortality|eternal life cannot be separated from one another as you claim because God's creation (man) is ONE body, soul and spirit.

It should not be news to any believer in Christ that spirit is spirit, and when your body dies, then IF you are in Christ when you die, your spirit will go to be with Christ but you will be limbless and that's the way you will remain until the resurrection of your body from the dead,

It shouldn't be news but unfortunately it is news to all the saints in Western nations who have been fed a gospel mixed with gnostic and unbiblical ideas regarding the separation of the natural and the spiritual.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy please note that if I bold or increase the font size below I'm not fighting but only emphasising.

Okay. It does help to make use of these tools when the motive is pure.

You cannot Biblically separate immortality|eternal life one from another because Biblically immortality|eternal life is not "only spiritual", nor is it "only physical", nor is it "only of the soul|mind"life".

I don't understand this? Obviously, we can conceive of immortality and Eternal Life separately because they are distinct words with their own meanings. Longevity is not necessarily the same as the inability to die!

You will not receive a glorified body before the return of Christ and the day of the general resurrection of the dead. Such a notion is not biblical.

True.

The word psychḗ is used interchangeably in the New Testament in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of an individual...

Yes, I've long believed that the "mind" is a function of the "soul." And the "soul" is distinct from the body, although it was created when God placed a human spirit in a human body. That created the "person."

Neither the soul nor the spirit have another body, OR RECEIVE another body. Spirit is spirit.

The Bible teaches us that when our current mortal bodies pass, we will eventually receive new immortal bodies. But this kind of "immortality" applies only to believers, whose bodies will be both eternal and blessed. We will no longer suffer spiritual separation from the Lord.

The breath of God|Spirit of God being breathed into man is indeed eternal life|immortality. Without it Adam would never have had eternal life|immortality - and Adam's body died and began to slowly die when the breath of God left him.

I don't see that the spirit of life gradually leaves people after the Fall. Their bodies slowly degrade and disintegrate until they die. The spirit of life God breathed into man was not the Holy Spirit, but rather, the creation of a human spirit. These are two very different things.

The fact God "breathed" this life into man, and not merely "created" his spirit, indicates that our spiritual virtues are designed to come directly from God Himself. We are not God, but His virtues must originate with Him, and not separately from ourselves.

We inherited this death of the body and separation from the life of God from Adam and if we are not born of the Spirit we will not inherit the resurrection of the body which has come about through the resurrection of the last Adam (Christ)...

We don't "inherit" the "death of the body," whatever that means? We do, however, inherit corrupted human nature. We inherit a fallen spiritual nature that results in the gradual disintegration of the body.

Neither do we "inherit" the "resurrection of the body," whatever that means? In choosing Christ over ourselves we obtain legal rights to his spiritual enablement.

That guarantees us the right to experience physical resurrection at Christ's Coming. We not only have this right to physical resurrection, but we also have the right to enjoy his righteousness now as we choose to live in his Spirit.

The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. -- John 3:8

This is different from breathing the spirit of life into Man, thus creating him. The Spirit of Christ comes to regenerate us after we have inherited a fallen nature.

(2) --- For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man...

God sent Christ, a man, to us because He is renewing men. To restore fallen men God has determined to send a proper man to infuse them with needed repairs to return to what man was made to be.

There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

A "spiritual body" does not refer to a "spirit," but only to a body that is dominated by God's Spirit. Man's Fall resulted in the domination of man by his own carnal interests, as opposed to the spiritual interests of God.

Christ came with his Holy Spirit to restore us to being dominant over our Flesh by the Holy Spirit. We return to being led by God as opposed to leading ourselves in rebellion against God's lordship over His creation.

The notion that the spirit that will go to be with Christ when the believer dies "will have a body" is unbiblical and based in gnostic thought...

When we die our *soul* goes to be with the Lord. It will, at that time, be a bodiless soul. Later, we are physically resurrected and given brand new immortal bodies.

The word záō is never used in reference to anyone who has died...

Obviously, people who have died are not, by definition, *physically alive!* This doesn't mean that their spirits are dead, because death, by definition, refers not to the death of the soul, but rather, to the separation of the soul from the body.

There is no "spiritual" resurrection mentioned in the New Testament - only birth by the Spirit, and through birth by the Spirit, being quickened (made alive again body, soul and spirit) with Christ, and bodily resurrected with Christ's bodily resurrection.

I agree. We are to be *physically resurrected*--not *spiritually resurrected,* or resurrected as spirits. Our souls are resurrected when they receive new bodies.

...the Bible tells us that immortality is in Christ alone.

You base that on a single verse that is being taken out of context. If it was true, as you're applying it, it would be stated repeatedly. The fact you draw upon only one verse indicates you are taking its meaning out of context.

Again, only God is the *source* of immortality. His origins are in "unapproachable light," being the infinite Creator. Nobody but God can reach that state of reality.

But God does give us "immortal bodies." This is stated repeatedly in the Bible in different ways. We receive "glorified bodies," we receive "eternal blessedness on an eternal earth," etc. etc. There is a reason the Jewish Hope is often expressed as "never again!"

We not only have eternal longevity established in a physical resurrection but we can, as saints, receive Eternal Life in new immortal bodies. This is not just "eternal longevity" in physical existence, but it is much more--an eternal *blessed* existence!

A newer lie is: "Your spirit will receive (another) glorified body separate to the body that God created for Adam - the body that died - even before the resurrection of your body from the dead at the time of Christ's second coming".

Right, nobody receives a new glorified body, apart from Christ, before the 2nd Coming.

Immortality|eternal life cannot be separated from one another as you claim because God's creation (man) is ONE body, soul and spirit.

As I said, Eternal Life by definition refers to eternal longevity, which can apply to wicked human souls who have eternal longevity and yet suffer the "2nd Death." By contrast, "immortality" in the NT refers to the reward of the righteous who obtain not just eternal longevity, but also eternal blessedness in the blessed life of Christ.

We are "immortal" precisely because we are immune from the 2nd Death. There is a clear distinction here between the "eternal existence" of wicked souls and the "eternal blessedness" of those infused with the life of Christ.

... IF you are in Christ when you die, your spirit will go to be with Christ but you will be limbless and that's the way you will remain until the resurrection of your body from the dead,

I wasn't aware that this was in dispute? The general resurrection of the body takes place at the 2nd Coming and not before. Any prior resurrection is a resurrection of the mortal body which must give way to either eternal longevity or eternal immortality.

It shouldn't be news but unfortunately it is news to all the saints in Western nations who have been fed a gospel mixed with gnostic and unbiblical ideas regarding the separation of the natural and the spiritual.

I have no idea what you're trying to portray as "Gnosticism" in the Church? To be frank, you seem to be arguing past me, assuming I believe things that I don't believe.

 

[Zao is life]

​

I don't understand this? Obviously, we can conceive of immortality and Eternal Life separately because they are distinct words with their own meanings. Longevity is not necessarily the same as the inability to die!

Immortal does not mean "longevity". You have ascribed your own meaning to the words mortal and immortal. Let's look at what the Bible says when it uses the words mortal and immortal, the Greek words, and the dictionary definition of those words.

[Strongs Greek 02288] θάνατος thánatos, than'-at-os
from 2348;
(properly, an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively):--X deadly, (be…) death.

[Strongs Greek 02349] θνητός thnētós, thnay-tos'
from 2348;
liable to die:--mortal(-ity).

[Strongs Greek 00110] ἀθανασία athanasía, ath-an-as-ee'-ah
from a compound of 1 (as a negative particle) and 2288;
deathlessness:--immortality.

--- "But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal [02349 thnētós] shall put on immortality [00110 athanasía], then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory". --- 1 Cor.15:54.
​

I don't see that the spirit of life gradually leaves people after the Fall.

The above is not what I said or implied.
​

Their bodies slowly degrade and disintegrate until they die.

That's what I said. What I said was not ambiguous.
​

The spirit of life God breathed into man was not the Holy Spirit, but rather, the creation of a human spirit. These are two very different things.

This is false and unbiblical. Only God has everlasting life in Himself. In the Word was life, and the life was the light of men.

Only the Son has life in Himself, and only the Son is immortal.

The Spirit of God breathed eternal life into Adam. That life was not "put into Adam to have life in himself by his own spirit".

The life God breathed into Adam was the eternal life possessed by God Himself and by God alone, and so Adam became a LIVING soul.

And there is no Biblical basis for your claim that Adam's spirit was only created after Adam was created. Where does it state that in Genesis?. You have made one creation of mankind + 1 more after the first creation of man. Spirit is BORN of Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh.
​

The fact God "breathed" this life into man, and not merely "created" his spirit, indicates that our spiritual virtues are designed to come directly from God Himself. We are not God, but His virtues must originate with Him, and not separately from ourselves.

The Bible teaches that unbelief of the Word of God caused the first sin that led to the loss of being united with the Spirit of (eternal) Life/God, and hence to death - the opposite of immortality.

"Spiritual virtues" are not eternal life, or the tree of life. They are THE FRUIT of eternal life. THE FRUIT of the Spirit, as Jesus has told you.
​

We don't "inherit" the "death of the body," whatever that means? We do, however, inherit corrupted human nature. We inherit a fallen spiritual nature that results in the gradual disintegration of the body.

The seed for the human genes you have come from your parents, who got theirs from their parents, who got theirs from their parents, who ............. got theirs from Adam and Eve. And the woman comes from the man.

I don't know if you think there is more than one human species on this planet?

--- "Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned" --- Romans 5:12

--- "But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life because of (Christ's) righteousness.
Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you." --- Romans 8:10-11.

If you did not inherit your body from Adam you would not be the same human species as the rest of us.

(Jesus is the same human species but He is the Son of God, born of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit, not of any son of Adam).
​

Neither do we "inherit" the "resurrection of the body," whatever that means? In choosing Christ over ourselves we obtain legal rights to his spiritual enablement.

The only way you will ever be resurrected from the dead with a body that is a spiritual body, is through the resurrection from the dead of the last Adam (Jesus).

You show that you do not fully understand the gospel by the things you say, because you do not understand why Christ is called the second man and the last Adam in 1 Corinthians 15.

If you do not understand the above, then you also cannot fully understand why it is that unless we are united with Christ through His Spirit in us - receiving eternal life by His Spirit - we cannot inherit His resurrection from the dead and His bodily immortality:

--- "Sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned" --- Romans 5:12

--- "But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life because of (Christ's) righteousness.
Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you." --- Romans 8:10-11.

You should not add gnostic ideas to the Word of God.
​

In choosing Christ over ourselves we obtain legal rights to his spiritual enablement. That guarantees us the right to experience physical resurrection at Christ's Coming. We not only have this right to physical resurrection ..

The above word you chose betrays yet another corruption of the truth and the only gospel.

We do not ourselves obtain legal rights to anything. It is ONLY through our faith in Christ's righteousness, the power of HIS resurrection and HIS Spirit quickening our mortal bodies through the power of HIS resurrection that we RECEIVE (inherit) Christ's - the last Adam's - resurrection and immortality: eternal life.
​

The Bible does not lie when it says that only Christ - the last Adam - is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16), and it does not lie when it says only the Son has (eternal) life IN HIMSELF (John 5:26), and it does not lie when it says IN THE WORD was (eternal) life (John 1:4) and Jesus did not lie when He told us that IN THE WORD IS (eternal) LIFE (John 6:63).

--- "He is the one who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began,but now made visible through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus.

He has broken the power of death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!" --- 1 Timothy 1:9-10
​

-- The above is the only gospel which you have corrupted with your own gnostic mixture by falsely claiming that we have "obtained legal right" to that which only the Son of God has obtained.

​

This is different from breathing the spirit of life into Man, thus creating him.

Man was already created before God breathed His eternal life|Spirit of life into Adam and Adam then became a LIVING soul.

What are you talking about? Which Bible are you quoting from?
​

The Spirit of Christ comes to regenerate us after we have inherited a fallen nature.

.. and after we inherited the dead and dying body from Adam.

And before the Spirit of Christ could come, Jesus - the second man and the last Adam - came to die for our sins and rise again BODILY from the dead,

so that through His death for our sins and BODILY resurrection of the dead, through the power of His resurrection, the Spirit of Christ given to those who believe in Him comes to dwell in those who believe in Him, EVEN IN OUR BODIES THAT ARE DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN, and He (the Spirit of life) will quicken our dead bodies so that in Christ and through Christ and through His resurrection - the last Adam's death and resurrection - WE will rise again BODILY in and through the (eternal) life OF CHRIST and through the power of HIS resurrection.​

 

[Zao is life]

When we die our *soul* goes to be with the Lord. It will, at that time, be a bodiless soul. Later, we are physically resurrected and given brand new immortal bodies.

We will be bodily resurrected with what 1 Corinthians 15:44 calls "a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]":

1 Corinthians 15:44:
"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

I agree. We are to be *physically resurrected*--not *spiritually resurrected,* or resurrected as spirits. Our souls are resurrected when they receive new bodies.

Where in the Bible does it SAY that after the death of the body, the human soul of the one who died believing in Christ, will not be with the person's spirit, which will be with Christ?

Your theory is that the soul|mind|life (psychḗ) will remain as dead as the body until the resurrection of the body - but where in the Bible does it SAY that, or which scriptures (plural) are you drawing your theory from?

You base that on a single verse that is being taken out of context. If it was true, as you're applying it, it would be stated repeatedly.

It's not taken out of context at all, and your words above betray the fact that the person making such a statement does not believe what is written unless it gets repeated more than once. Yet is IS repeated more than once, in various ways:

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

"The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men." (John 1:2 & 4).

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63).

John 1:4 states that life [zōḗ] is in the Word of God. John 1:14 states that the Word became a human being and lived among us. This is Christ.

-- He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- 1 Timothy 6:15-16, NETfree version.

-- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

-- "I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." -- Revelation 1:17-18.

The fact you draw upon only one verse indicates you are taking its meaning out of context.

The fact that you don't believe it even though it were only one verse betrays the fact that you do not believe what is written. You do not believe the Word of God if the Word of God disagrees with your theories.

Again, only God is the *source* of immortality. His origins are in "unapproachable light," being the infinite Creator. Nobody but God can reach that state of reality.

God did not "reach" immortality. He IS, WAS AND IS TO COME. He is the Creator, the Almighty. He has always been immortal and immortality exists only in God who - yes - is the source of man's immortality through His Spirit giving (breathing) eternal life into the creature.

But it DOES NOT BECOME man's (own) immortality. Only the Man, Jesus Christ is immortal|has immortality in Himself. THOSE WHO DO NOT ABIDE IN THE WORD IN WHOM IS LIFE WILL PERISH, JUST AS ADAM DID.

One would think that those who have been delivered from Adam's death through the death and resurrection of Christ would learn from Adam's fault and will refuse the lie "You will NOT surely die", which Adam BELIEVED

and which implied that Adam, into whose soul God breathed HIS eternal life, had immortality in himself.

Those who will believe the words "You will not surely die" (implying that the creature has been given immortality in himself) fail to see that God's Word,

which ends with ".. you will surely die" is telling the creature - Adam and the sons of Adam - that we do not have eternal life|immortality in ourselves.

Only Christ, the Word in Whom is life, does.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:5.

Eternal life (zoe), which is always associated with life in the body in the New Testament (i.e immortality), is not in ourselves - it is in Christ:

--- "And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." --- 1 John 5:10-11.

He IS the everlasting life:

--- "And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and the everlasting life." --- 1 John 5:20

 

[Randy Kluth]

We will be bodily resurrected with what 1 Corinthians 15:44 calls "a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]"

What in 1 Cor 15 refers to as the resurrection body is indeed a "spiritual body," but not a "spirit." The physical body will be completely aligned with Christian spirituality. Since it is a "body," it is a physical body, and not a "spirit."

Where in the Bible does it SAY that after the death of the body, the human soul of the one who died believing in Christ, will not be with the person's spirit, which will be with Christ?

Who is saying a human soul, after death, will be with a person's spirit? That is a contradiction. A human soul *is* a spirit--it is not *with* its own spirit.

Your theory is that the soul|mind|life (psychḗ) will remain as dead as the body until the resurrection of the body - but where in the Bible does it SAY that, or which scriptures (plural) are you drawing your theory from?

I did *not* say the soul will remain dead at all. The soul, or person, "dies" by separating from its body. The soul itself never dies in the sense of annihilation.

God did not "reach" immortality. He IS, WAS AND IS TO COME. He is the Creator, the Almighty. He has always been immortal and immortality exists only in God who - yes - is the source of man's immortality through His Spirit giving (breathing) eternal life into the creature.

I never said God "reaches immortality." Christ, who is divine, obtained an immortal body when he ascended into heaven. He had been living in a mortal body, even though he originated, as a revelation, from the immortal God. This is Trinitarian Theology.

God promises to give immortal bodies to His saints in the resurrection. Your denial of this is not biblical. God alone is the exclusive source of immortality, but He does grant it to men in the form of immortal bodies in the resurrection.

Eternal life (zoe), which is always associated with life in the body in the New Testament (i.e immortality), is not in ourselves - it is in Christ...

Eternal Life is given to men. That is, it is not the exclusive domain of God. He gives it to His people.

--- "And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." --- 1 John 5:10-11.

Yes, we derive our Eternal Life from Christ. In this we get to have it in ourselves. Our connection with Christ is made permanent. To say that we must have an essential connection to Christ to have Eternal Life is true. But to say this means we do not have it in ourselves is false. We have it in ourselves because we are connected to Christ forever.

Sounds like we're having semantics issues? To have it "in ourselves" means to you that we don't need Christ. Never have I implied such a thing!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Immortal does not mean "longevity". You have ascribed your own meaning to the words mortal and immortal. Let's look at what the Bible says when it uses the words mortal and immortal, the Greek words, and the dictionary definition of those words.

I'm using the biblical definition of "immortality." The dictionary definition does not present only the biblical definition. To conflate the two can misconstrue things.

--- "But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal [02349 thnētós] shall put on immortality [00110 athanasía], then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory". --- 1 Cor.15:54.​

Yes, no argument here.

The above is not what I said or implied. ​

You said this: "Adam's body died and began to slowly die when the breath of God left him." I denied this "slow death." You did indeed say that, which did imply that!

Only God has everlasting life in Himself. In the Word was life, and the life was the light of men.

I argued this in another post.

And there is no Biblical basis for your claim that Adam's spirit was only created after Adam was created. ​

Please quote me saying that? I did *not* say that! Adam was created when God created his spirit. He did this when He gave human life to his lifeless body, creating a human soul in the process. Making Adam a spirit was synonymous with giving him life. They are two distinct things that happened simultaneously.

The Bible teaches that unbelief of the Word of God caused the first sin that led to the loss of being united with the Spirit of (eternal) Life/God, and hence to death - the opposite of immortality.​

Where does the Bible say this? Violating God's Word caused Man to be sentenced to death. And it did result in a measured separation between God and Man, though not a complete separation. The Law of Moses was predicated on the idea that a limited relationship between God and Israel was still possible.

Israel was not separated from the Holy Spirit, though they did indeed lose any guarantee of Eternal Life. The guarantee of Eternal Life took place at the cross, and bears fruit when men accept that new covenant.

 

[Zao is life]

I never said God "reaches immortality." Christ, who is divine, obtained an immortal body when he ascended into heaven. He had been living in a mortal body, even though he originated, as a revelation, from the immortal God. This is Trinitarian Theology.

It is not Trinitarian theology to state He "obtained immortality when He ascended". That's your own theology again. Jesus was immortal from the moment He rose again from the dead. 40 days before He ascended.

It is Trinitarian theology that Jesus is God in human form, and it is not biblical to claim that God gave to anyone except Christ to have eternal life in himself.

Eternal life for God is spiritual, because God is Spirit. Eternal life for man (zoe) is always linked to eternal life in a human body a.k.a immortality. The purpose of God when He created Adam.

Our eternal life is in the Son of God and immortality - eternal life in the body - is linked to that.

Adam died. Proving the creature does not have eternal life in himself - because only God has eternal life in Himself, and the Son of God alone has immortality in Himself, and eternal life in Himself.

You cannot get away from that. It's not against Trinitarian doctrine, but what you have changed it into when you falsely claim that man will be given immortality in himself is a lie, and your denial of this truth is not biblical.

Adam's death was the first death.

Christ - the last Adam - IS the resurrection and the life. The eternal life (in the body, a.k.a immortality) of the creature is IN THE SON who alone is immortal and who alone has eternal life in Himself. This is what the scriptures say and you cannot get away from that either, no matter how much you claim the scriptures mean something else.

"You will not surely die" is a lie and it brought about Adam's death when Adam believed the lie. He believed the lie before he sinned. He stopped abiding in the Word of God.

Adam's death was the first death. And there will be a second death. You cannot get away from that either.

Best you stop believing the lie. The truth is that Christ alone has immortality in Himself. Christ alone has eternal life in Himself. Without the breath of God in us we will die a second death, even if we have been resurrected bodily through the power of Christ's resurrection.
​

Eternal Life is given to men.

Not eternal life in themselves. Eternal life IN CHRIST.

That is, it is not the exclusive domain of God.

This is blasphemy. You will never be like the Most High, possessing eternal life in yourself. Having eternal life in Himself is the exclusive domain of God.

He gives it to His people.

He gives it to His people IN HIS SON AND through the life of the Son. Why don't you believe scripture?

"And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Only in the Word is life. (John 1:4).

Our immortality is in Christ, the Creator, who alone is immortal according to the scriptures, and who alone has life in Himself, according to the scriptures. (1 Timothy 6:16; John 5:26).

God said to Adam:

"Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof dying you will die." (Genesis 2:17, literal translation from the Hebrew).

It implies that Adam (the creature) did not have immortality in himself, and this therefore gives us the knowledge that we do not have - and can never have - immortality | eternal life in ourselves.

If we do not abide in the Word of God, then we will die. "You will not surely die" is a lie from the beginning:

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." -- John 15:6-7.​

Yes, we derive our Eternal Life from Christ.

IN CHRIST. Not "from Christ". Do you think God is going to take away Christ's eternal life from Him and give it to you? Well THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE IMPLYING. Our eternal life is IN Christ. Stop twisting scripture.

It's not semantic issues. It's a "DO NOT twist the Word of God to mean something other than what it is saying" issue.

But you no doubt will continue to deny the scriptures and uphold your own doctrine, falsely claiming it's "Trinitarian" doctrine,

so I'm done with debating the issue with you. I placed this up for the sake of all the readers who have ears to hear and eyes to see. I don't necessarily place it up for those who I know will merely continue to deny scripture, claiming OSAS and falsely claiming that because God our Creator has eternal life in Himself and the Son of God alone has immortality and eternal life in Himself, so does the creature.

It's a lie from the beginning. The first lie.

Adam's life was in Christ, the Word of God through Whom and by Whom he was created.

The moment Adam believed the lie of Satan, he sinned, and he died. We will not ever possess eternal life or immortality in ourselves, like the Most High does.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is not Trinitarian theology to state He "obtained immortality when He ascended". That's your own theology again. Jesus was immortal from the moment He rose again from the dead. 40 days before He ascended.​

We've reached a point of adamant disagreement. I'll have to let you go with your stated beliefs. I don't believe Jesus had an immortal body when he rose from the dead, but instead, rose in his healed former body. He ascended to put on his new immortal body, setting an example for us in our hope of our own resurrection and immortality.

I don't agree with your definition of Eternal Life. I don't agree that it is synonymous with immortality in all cases, though in some cases it is. For example, I presently have Eternal Life, but I am still in a mortal body. I am not yet immortal.

You think Eternal Life and Immortality is not in ourselves, but strictly our attachment to God. I don't. I do agree with need to be attached to God but in being as such we do obtain Eternal Life and Immortality in ourselves. We have Eternal Life, and not just God. We have immortality, and not just God. We get immortal bodies, and not just Christ.

There is no need to pursue this conversation any further. I see no new material to discuss or debate. We are covering the same old territory, firm in our own convictions.

 

[ewq1938]

We've reached a point of adamant disagreement. I'll have to let you go with your stated beliefs. I don't believe Jesus had an immortal body when he rose from the dead, but instead, rose in his healed former body.

Luk_20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

When the saved are resurrected, they cannot die anymore.


Rom_6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Our resurrection will be the same or like the resurrection of Jesus. If we resurrect as immortals, so did Christ.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Christ could not die again because his resurrection was to physical immortality.


We all know there are two resurrections.

1. to immortality and eternal life
2. a return to mortality.

Jesus and the dead in Him experience the first one.


1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


The saved dead (includes Jesus) will rise in incorruption and power which is another way to say "immortal".


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Immortality comes to all who are saved, the dead and the living.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

"this corruptible shall have put on incorruption" and "death swallowed up in victory" is another way to say "immortal".


Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

A glorious or glorified body is another way to say the body is immortal.


Jesus rose in an immortal glorified body and so shall the saved.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Luk_20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

When the saved are resurrected, they cannot die anymore.

That is a mistaken conclusion. The "children of the resurrection" refers to a class of people who after the general resurrection assume immortality. This certainly does not mean that all who have ever been raised from the dead are "children of the resurrection" in the sense that they were raised in immortal bodies.

Elisha raised a boy to life in a mortal body. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead in a mortal body. They were each raised in their old mortal body, and as such were not so identified as "children of the resurrection." They may very well be children of the resurrection, but that does not mean that when they were raised from the dead they had become "unable to die."

 

[ewq1938]

That is a mistaken conclusion.

No, it isn't. The children of the resurrection who are raised immortal are those of the first resurrection. No other resurrection of the dead in Christ applies such as Lazarus. The rest of the post also proved my point that Jesus did resurrect as an immortal just as the dead in Christ shall.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, it isn't. The children of the resurrection who are raised immortal are those of the first resurrection. No other resurrection of the dead in Christ applies such as Lazarus. The rest of the post also proved my point that Jesus did resurrect as an immortal just as the dead in Christ shall.

You were arguing that Jesus, in being raised from the dead, was a "child of the resurrection" and so had to be raised immortal. As I said, that is not true and was not true in the case of Lazarus, who was raised and healed in his old, mortal body.

In the same way I believe Jesus was raised and healed in his old, mortal body. He had scars, which would not suggest a new, glorified body that had not been crucified.

Nothing you said in your post proves to me that Jesus was raised immortal. The 1st Resurrection, in context, refers not to Jesus' resurrection from the dead, but rather, to those who are raised immortal at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

You were arguing that Jesus, in begin raised from the dead, was a "child of the resurrection" and so had to be raised immortal.

No, I did not argue that since it is incorrect. I'm pretty certain I said something similar to, " The children of the resurrection who are raised immortal are those of the first resurrection. "

As I said, that is not true and was not true in the case of Lazarus, who was raised and healed in his old, mortal body.

I also addressed that when I said, "No other resurrection of the dead in Christ applies such as Lazarus." Would you care to repeat the strawman again though?

In the same way I believe Jesus was raised and healed in his old, mortal body. He had scars, which would not suggest a new, glorified body that had not been crucified.

The scars were needed to prove his identity. He was in a changed immortal body, the old changed into the immortal but retaining flaws like scars.

The 1st Resurrection, in context, refers not to Jesus' resurrection from the dead, but rather, to those who are raised immortal at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

I already made that clear but I guess saying it like it's new information is important somehow.

 

[Phil .]

You’re already apparently the center of the universe.
A better seat is available?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, I did not argue that since it is incorrect. I'm pretty certain I said something similar to, " The children of the resurrection who are raised immortal are those of the first resurrection. "

So you're saying that the children of the resurrection who are raised immortal, who are of the 1st resurrection, have nothing to do with Jesus' resurrection? In that case, you've not argued that Jesus was of the 1st resurrection and thus raised immortal. Why should Jesus have been raised immortal if he was not part of the 1st resurrection?

My view is that Jesus put on immortality *after* he was raised in his old body. I see no evidence that Jesus rose up in a new immortal body?

I also addressed that when I said, "No other resurrection of the dead in Christ applies such as Lazarus." Would you care to repeat the strawman again though?

Not trying to give you a strawman--just trying to understand your logic. So far, you don't appear to have proven why Jesus had to have been raised immortal? I can understand that the children of the resurrection at the 1st resurrection were raised immortal. But what does this have to do with Christ's own resurrection?

The scars were needed to prove his identity. He was in a changed immortal body, the old changed into the immortal but retaining flaws like scars.

Sounds like rationalization to me? He could establish his identity as the person who was crucified by showing the same old body healed.

If he had received a new immortal body, he would have to have proven who he was by some other method. He wanted to show his old body healed, prior to his immortalization, in my opinion.

Could Jesus have proven who he was in a completely different, immortal body? Could he have identified who he was without scars? Yes.

You further argued this: "When the saved are resurrected, they cannot die anymore."

But this is obviously false. People in the NT era could be raised from the dead in their old bodies, and would have to die again. So what further arguments are you arguing for Jesus being raised immortal?

 

[Gottservant]

I think its fair to say "saints are tempted to conflate resurrection with birth" because the seed of the new birth is at the resurrection.

If the seed was not there, there would be no connection between the two, by which the Spirit may live all the more.

It's like a set of keys: the key is not the car, but without the key you can't start the car.

 

[ewq1938]

But this is obviously false. People in the NT era could be raised from the dead in their old bodies, and would have to die again.

Strawman fallacy


A straw man is a common form of a fallacious argument based upon presenting the impression of refuting a person's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not promoted or held by that person.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Strawman fallacy


A straw man is a common form of a fallacious argument based upon presenting the impression of refuting a person's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not promoted or held by that person.

That is your response to my point, to disregard it by defining what a "straw man argument" is? I guess you have no answer? You said, ""When the saved are resurrected, they cannot die anymore."

I quoted what you said, and proved it wrong. You said, in effect, that Christians can only die once. But obviously, a resurrected Christian who comes back in his mortal body proves this wrong.

And no--this is not a straw man argument. You're arguing that no Christians have died and have been raised from the dead in history. And you base this on your preconceived doctrine? Yes, your claim is very weak, particularly when Jesus showed that believers like Lazarus could be raised from the dead. How can you prove that the Saved have never been raised back up in their old bodies in history?

I quoted you exactly. If that's not what you meant, or if I misunderstood the context, explain that. But don't call it a "straw ma argument," because it's not. It directly challenges your claim, that Christians only die once.

Matt 10.5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “...8 Heal the sick, raise the dead.

Acts 20.9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!”