TRUTH

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Foreigner

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Foreigner wrote this but can not back it up with which doctrines

-- Neophyte, honestly....
You KNOW better than that.
If you wanted to prove me wrong, you could simply post one or two Catholic belief/dogmas/doctrines based on Oral Tradition from Paul's time.
The simple fact is that you cannot.

It wasn't until 1950 that Pope Pius XII said 'ex cathedra' that Mary was taken bodily into heaven.
That certainly wasn't spoken of as Oral Tradition in Paul's time or in the initial centuries to follow.


In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
http://www.newadvent...then/07674d.htm

-- Excellent example. There was NO Oral Tradition from Paul's time that gave credence to this belief.
And there is still nothing ANYWHERE that even begins to support this idea. Certainly not the Bible.


Name calling doesn't make you correct. Maybe if you read from Catholic sources instead of reading garbage from anti-Catholic web-sites you then would have a better understanding of what those dates represent.They do not mean as you want them to be understood.

-- Nice try. Unfortunately, the dates are not your problem.
Your problem is the topic itself. There is NOTHING that supports the idea that this Catholic belief is supported in any way by the Oral Tradition in the time of Paul.
There are simply no facts to support this claim.

The simple fact is that later on - perhaps centuries later - someone decided that this was something to be believed.
So, without historic record or any facts whatsoever, it became Catholic "truth" and has been dogma ever since

Hardly a way to base your beliefs on truth.
 

Rex

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Lets add the bottom line to that post

Gal 1:8-9

Paul even repeats himself LOL
Apparently he was speaking to some hard of hearing people as well
 

Axehead

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Below is a weblink from Strongs biblical translation of Babylon of the Old and New Testament. I provided the weblink below. As you can see, even your KJV admits that Babylon is the code name for Rome.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G897&t=KJV


Furthermore, the Bible shows that a Church at Rome already existed before St. Paul went there because St. Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. He was writing that letter to Christians in Rome who were being persecuted by the Roman emperor. (See Romans 1-16).

Hi Selene,

Can you tell me what Peter meant by the following "code" names? You said in my "Was Peter ever in Rome" thread, that Babylon was "code" for Rome.

What cities was he really talking about in 1Peter 1:1 if he spoke in code?

Axehead


1 Peter 1:1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

 

epostle1

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What is CLARIFIED does not mean it was INVENTED. This concept completely baffles anti-Catholics, they refuse to learn it.

The BIBLE mandates oral tradition, a BIBLICAL concept that also baffles anti-Catholics.

Oral Tradition is not confined to one apostle, it's all of them, and only 3 of the original 12 wrote. What the other 9 taught orally is no less infallible than the 3 that wrote. God is not confined to just one means of transmitting His Word. That is limiting God. This means or mode of transmission (Tradition) was familiar to the Jews as sacred but it is foreign to anti-Catholics. That's because they won't stomp on Judaism, that would be politically incorrect.
 

Foreigner

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Kepha, you keep taking this round in circles.

The question stands: What specific doctrine/dogma/belief is held by Catholics today based on the Oral Tradition of Paul's time.

You guys keep using Pauls words about it to justify beliefs you hold.

It should be easy enough to support.......if there were any truth to it.
 

Axehead

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What is CLARIFIED does not mean it was INVENTED. This concept completely baffles anti-Catholics, they refuse to learn it.

The BIBLE mandates oral tradition, a BIBLICAL concept that also baffles anti-Catholics.

Oral Tradition is not confined to one apostle, it's all of them, and only 3 of the original 12 wrote. What the other 9 taught orally is no less infallible than the 3 that wrote. God is not confined to just one means of transmitting His Word. That is limiting God. This means or mode of transmission (Tradition) was familiar to the Jews as sacred but it is foreign to anti-Catholics. That's because they won't stomp on Judaism, that would be politically incorrect.

Why do you say anti-Catholics? Why not non-Catholics, since we are not anti-people. That makes people sound like they hate Catholics. Is that by design or just an oversight?
 

Foreigner

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lol No, it was no explanation at all.

What is CLARIFIED does not mean it was INVENTED. This concept completely baffles anti-Catholics, they refuse to learn it.


-- But it WAS invented before it was CLARIFIED.
There is no Oral Tradition from Paul's time that supports many of the Catholic beliefs they say is based on Oral Tradition.



The BIBLE mandates oral tradition, a BIBLICAL concept that also baffles anti-Catholics.


-- But the Bible doesn't mandate the types of unsupported, unsubstantiated claims Catholics make based on Oral Tradition.


Oral Tradition is not confined to one apostle, it's all of them, and only 3 of the original 12 wrote. What the other 9 taught orally is no less infallible than the 3 that wrote.

-- But...that...is...the...whole...point
NONE of the apostles during the time of Paul mentioned or supported any oral tradition that Catholics today base certain beliefs on.

Oh they do? Then it should be easy enough to point out which Apostle said what and how that dovetails in with Catholic dogma.


The danger is when Catholics ignore actual scripture to support a belief they hold.

They claim that Mary is a mediator between God and man even though in Timothy it states: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Tim 2:5

That shows their belief about Mary isn't scripturally supported (sorry Aspen).

So if their support for this idea is based on Oral Tradition, one is left asking.....from whom? from when? based on what? It obviously isn't Scripture.




.
 

mjrhealth

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It intruiges me how topics on truth are so filled with lies.

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


Joh_10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh_10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh_10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh_10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh_10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh_10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh_10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh_10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh_10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

In all His love
 

epostle1

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You actually miss my point. Yes, there are plenty of writings down through history by authors who where Church fathers or studied them. But they are all human, and therefore fallible and liable to bias.

They give a testimony to what was believed and practiced, which you don't accept. Individual Fathers were fallible and liable to bias at times, but the final ruling of the Church was not. And none of them rebelled.

The best way...indeed the only truly factual account about the Apostles, is found only in scripture.

Rejecting everything because it is not in scripture is sticking your head in the sand.

We certainly read the other things, a lot are highly beneficial, but we do not base Church doctrine on these other writings...unless they are directly backed up by scripture...which basically means our doctrine comes from scripture.

Which basically means your doctrine comes from your opinion of scripture, and I see no resemblance of sola scriptura or sola fide in scripture, nor does it exist in the early Church. The 'doctrine' that everything must come from scripture alone is not in scripture.


My point was not that Paul is greater than Peter. I was merely trying to point out that saying the Catholic Church was the only true church because of Peter did not really follow through.In fact I would say that there are quite a few things the RCC say about Peter that don't make sense, especially in line with your claim that Church Tradition holds as much authority as scripture does. Take, for example, the call for Priests to be single, and yet we know Peter, who you claim was your first 'Pope' was married...the bible clearly mentions his mother in law, and then later when Paul is talking about his own singleness, he also mentions Peters married state. Many Catholics believe (even if it is not stated directly) that Peter was single. If such a theory has come about, it's come about from an source outside the Bible...tradition perhaps? And clearly it is wrong...it makes you wonder at what else that comes from tradition is erroneous.
Also (and I feel it helps highlight my point)...at some point someone in the RCC Church has said or proclaimed at one point that Peter was the first 'Pope', and from there on in you feel entitled to claim the rest of us are not the 'true Church'...which is basically relegating us to blasphemous heretics.

Celibacy is not a doctrine, it is a discipline. There are married priests. The Church does not relegate you to blasphemous heretics, I've repeated the official position the Church has towards Protestants too many times. If you feel that inferior to the Truth, then maybe God is calling you to become a Catholic.


You forget all biblical teaching on what 'being the leader' actually means, on how the gospel breaks down walls, not raises them. Peter would not have given himself a throne to sit on, or royal robes and have people bow down and kiss his ring. He knew that to be a Christ like leader, he needed to serve, put himself last. He also knew, as did all the other apostles, that being 'elect' was about receiving Christ as Saviour and having the Holy Spirit come to reside within you. To say that the RCC is the 'only true Church' you are basically saying that no Protestants have the Spirit or follow and love Jesus. All this, from maybe only one man making a statement about Peter that the Bible simply doesn't back. This....this is why making ALL doctrines based only on scripture is essential.


You are repeating yourself with the same argument about customs and rubrics. You refuse to accept the Church's official peace offering, and want to stoke the dying flames of the reformation to keep division intact. Your divisiveness is counterproductive to the mission of this forum and you are a moderator.


No one said 'exclusive'.

No, but that is hows your read "profitable".

We don't ban everything apart from the bible. It's just that as the Word of God, it is the highest authority.

The Bible says the Church together with Tradition and the Bible is the highest authority. Nowhere in the bible does "Word of God" mean the written word alone. Bible alone theology is a man made tradition manufactured in Switzerland and Germany in the 15th century. Before that your 'infallible' doctrine of sola scriptura, which allows you to form any opinion you wish, did not exist.

We must hold to this, because as God's direct word to us, it is the only thing in the world we can guarantee is true and without fault. No matter how much a person or Church may love Jesus and be true disciples, striving to live as Jesus told them too, there is always the possibility they are mistaken or biased. If you can show me a Church or single person in the world apart from Christ who hasn't made a mistake, then perhaps I may consider your approach. But as I know that no such person exists, I think my case is safe. The bible must be the highest authority.

For the third time, infallibility has nothing to do with impeccability. If anything doesn't make any sense it's a book that testifies to itself.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is "petra", that "Petros" actually means "a small rock", and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha," not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.

Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the "small rock," he would have used "lithos" which means a little pebble in Greek. Also, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church. (You don’t even need Matt. 16:18 to prove Peter is the rock because Jesus renamed Simon “rock” in Mark 3:16 and John 1:42!).

Matt. 16:17 - to further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, Jesus says Simon "Bar-Jona." The use of "Bar-Jona" proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, "Bar" means son, and "Jonah" means John or dove (Holy Spirit). See Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 which give another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of Psalm 22 declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time.

Matt. 16:18 - also, in quoting "on this rock," the Scriptures use the Greek construction "tautee tee" which means on "this" rock; on "this same" rock; or on "this very" rock. "Tautee tee" is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”

Matt. 16:18-19 - in addition, to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter's leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom).

Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.
more here

But as the passions of the Reformation era have cooled, and Protestant scholars have taken a more dispassionate look at this text, they have come to agree more and more that Jesus was referring to Peter himself as the rock. Of course, they disagree with the Catholic interpretation of what this means, but many now agree that the Catholic explanation of the grammar of the text is correct.
The following quotations, all of which are from Protestant Bible scholars, are taken from the book Jesus, Peter & the Keys: a Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy (Scott Butler et al., (Santa Barbara, CA: Queenship Publishing), 1996).

William Hendriksen Member of the Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary says Peter is the Rock

Gerhard Maier Leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian says Peter is the Rock.

Donald A. Carson III Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary says Peter is the Rock

John Peter Lange German, Protestant scholar says Peter is the Rock

John A. Broadus Baptist author says Peter is the Rock

J. Knox Chamblin Presbyterian and New Testament Professor, Reformed Theological Seminary says Peter is the Rock

Craig L. Blomberg Baptist and Professor of New Testament, Denver Seminary says Peter is the Rock

David Hill Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies, University of Sheffield, England says Peter is the Rock

Suzanne de Dietrich Presbyterian theologian says Peter is the Rock

Donald A. Hagner Fuller Theological Seminary says Peter is the Rock
 

Selene

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Same old broken record here, Sure Selene, I remember well, how Jesus spent 3.5 years arguing about a church, that it was going to be established in Rome, be in league with the government and end "outlaw" all other religions. He also said it was going to teach many things He never said. What verse was that.
Here it is Gal 1:8


Hello Brother Rex,

First of all, Jesus never wrote Galatians 1:8. That was St. Paul. So when you say that Jesus spent 3.5 years arguing about a church that was going to be established in Rome and then point a biblical verse in which St. Paul wrote.......that clearly shows you to be in error.

And finally, this is Galatians 1:8, which has nothing to do with what you are stating.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

I don't see anything in that biblical verse about any church being in league with the government. Perhaps, you would care to address the points I have made and try to refute it??
 

Rex

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Apparently you don't see the humor in the ridiculous gospel you stand by and teach.
A gospel than seeks to minimize, take away from, as well as add to the written word "you also claim" as your cannon of scripture.

Now really how ridiculous is that, Out of one side of your mouth you insist and credit your church for preserving the cannon of scripture.
The other side of your mouth spends countless post denying it's message.

There is only one possibility, you promote a different gospel Gal 1:8-9

you seek to enslave everyone under Rome and the history of your church proves this out

As you also pointed out "Babylon" is a codeword for Rome

Below is a weblink from Strongs biblical translation of Babylon of the Old and New Testament. I provided the weblink below. As you can see, even your KJV admits that Babylon is the code name for Rome.


http://www.bluelette...ongs=G897&t=KJV


Furthermore, the Bible shows that a Church at Rome already existed before St. Paul went there because St. Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. He was writing that letter to Christians in Rome who were being persecuted by the Roman emperor. (See Romans 1-16).

Ask yourself what is the only vestige that still survives Rome today?
YOUR CHURCH that's whats left of the First Roman empire

I might add that your eastern leg also still exists though you claim dominion over it.
 

Axehead

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They give a testimony to what was believed and practiced, which you don't accept. Individual Fathers were fallible and liable to bias at times, but the final ruling of the Church was not. And none of them rebelled.


The only "fathers" of the Church are the NT writers for they were the only ones inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other writings are subservient to the New Testament and tested by what the Holy Spirit says through the New Testament writers.


Rejecting everything because it is not in scripture is sticking your head in the sand.


We only reject so-called historical writings if the NT rejects them as contradictory and in error. The Bible is the trump card not men's opinions.


Which basically means your doctrine comes from your opinion of scripture, and I see no resemblance of sola scriptura or sola fide in scripture, nor does it exist in the early Church. The 'doctrine' that everything must come from scripture alone is not in scripture.


Of course you would say that, because RCC doctrine disagrees with even the simple reading of Scripture.

You are repeating yourself with the same argument about customs and rubrics. You refuse to accept the Church's official peace offering, and want to stoke the dying flames of the reformation to keep division intact. Your divisiveness is counterproductive to the mission of this forum and you are a moderator.


Kepha, for some reason you are unable to see that you are the one that is divisive because you are bringing another doctrine into this forum that this forum does not support. You are still engaged in the crusades. You are trying to bring people into submission to Rome by your words. People are just defending themselves with the Truth because they don't want to submit to Rome.
 

neophyte

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Axehead, do you believe that the early Christian community [ first 400 years ] practiced that which was inspired by the Holy Spirit only to that which was written down or for the first 400 years of the Christian community to that Scripture that was taught and transmitted by the voices of the apostles and their future ordained clergy?
How many times must you try and deny that for the approximately15oo years before the completed Word written in the vernacular by the Catholic printing press of Guttenberg that most people regardless if they had access to the written Word unfortunately were illiterate even if they were literate it's a possiblility that they could not have the extra money to purchase the expensive Holy Bible back then. It was taught to those Christians by the spoken words of ordained men or the Gospel stories were on stained -glass windows in the Catholic Churches of Europe and England which many were later stolen by the new religion of Protestantism. Sola Scriptura by itself was foreign to the Christian community before the 1600s.
 

mjrhealth

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For most of the churches history it taught and did services in Latin, that doesnt help an english or any other language speaking person. Even when I was a child in the 70s most of the services where done in latin. Never taught me a thing.
 

Axehead

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Axehead, do you believe that the early Christian community [ first 400 years ] practiced that which was inspired by the Holy Spirit only to that which was written down or for the first 400 years of the Christian community to that Scripture that was taught and transmitted by the voices of the apostles and their future ordained clergy?
How many times must you try and deny that for the approximately15oo years before the completed Word written in the vernacular by the Catholic printing press of Guttenberg that most people regardless if they had access to the written Word unfortunately were illiterate even if they were literate it's a possiblility that they could not have the extra money to purchase the expensive Holy Bible back then. It was taught to those Christians by the spoken words of ordained men or the Gospel stories were on stained -glass windows in the Catholic Churches of Europe and England which many were later stolen by the new religion of Protestantism. Sola Scriptura by itself was foreign to the Christian community before the 1600s.

Neo, the problem of illiteracy was solved very nicely and with much love.

Col_4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

The epistles were read to everyone that could not read and then they were responsible for what was read. Unlike the RCC which kept the word of God from people for centuries and just "told them" what was in it. Once the common people got the word of God into their hands they realized the Catholic church was perpetuating a hoax upon them. The RCC has been trying to recover from being exposed by the mass production of Bibles ever since. Did you know that the Gospels and Epistles were copied over and over and distributed? I posted somewhere that the early church was using most of the 27 books of the New Testament. They knew which ones had God's stamp of approval on them. I'll find that post for you. :D

You know Neo, this is really not an intellectual exercise as you and your friends are trying to make it. You can come up with every explanation in the book to satisfy those that walk by sight. The RCC even claims it found Peter's bones in Rome to try to establish his presence in Rome. And there are 2 Catholic monasteries that say they both have John the Baptist's head. Though the Bible is silent about that, we appreciate that the Catholic church found out something we never knew about. That John the Baptist had two brains. :blink:

But, a spirit-filled Christian recognizes the Lord's voice behind real truth and does not recognize the Lord's voice behind purported "truth". The Spirit of God is indispensable for those who love God and want to be led by Him.


1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Axehead
 

Selene

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Apparently you don't see the humor in the ridiculous gospel you stand by and teach.
A gospel than seeks to minimize, take away from, as well as add to the written word "you also claim" as your cannon of scripture.

Now really how ridiculous is that, Out of one side of your mouth you insist and credit your church for preserving the cannon of scripture.
The other side of your mouth spends countless post denying it's message.

There is only one possibility, you promote a different gospel Gal 1:8-9

you seek to enslave everyone under Rome and the history of your church proves this out

As you also pointed out "Babylon" is a codeword for Rome



Ask yourself what is the only vestige that still survives Rome today?
YOUR CHURCH that's whats left of the First Roman empire

I might add that your eastern leg also still exists though you claim dominion over it.

Brother Rex,

As you can see in the Bible, the Church at Rome existed because St. Paul wrote to the Romans. He was writing to the Church at Rome and introducing himself because he hasn't been to Rome at the time he wrote his letter. St. Paul was writing to the Church at Rome. He was not writing to the Roman empire or to the Roman emperor. So, again, as anyone can see, those are two separate things.

It was not us who sought to enslave anyone. That was clearly the Roman emperor. The Roman Church was clearly persecuted by the Roman emperor. And it is clear in the Bible that St. Paul was writing to a Christian Church at Rome. So after 2000 years, we are still standing.

Brother Rex, how little you know about us. We never claimed dominion over our sister. In fact, the late Pope John Paul II stated that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the left lung of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Catholics, on the other hand, are still in communion with Rome. The Eastern Catholics follow the same liturgies as the Eastern Orthodox Church, which has always been accepted in Rome. Instead of throwing insults, why not spew out some facts??

Neo, the problem of illiteracy was solved very nicely and with much love.

Col_4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

The epistles were read to everyone that could not read and then they were responsible for what was read. Unlike the RCC which kept the word of God from people for centuries and just "told them" what was in it. Once the common people got the word of God into their hands they realized the Catholic church was perpetuating a hoax upon them. The RCC has been trying to recover from being exposed by the mass production of Bibles ever since. Did you know that the Gospels and Epistles were copied over and over and distributed? I posted somewhere that the early church was using most of the 27 books of the New Testament. They knew which ones had God's stamp of approval on them. I'll find that post for you. :D

You know Neo, this is really not an intellectual exercise as you and your friends are trying to make it. You can come up with every explanation in the book to satisfy those that walk by sight. The RCC even claims it found Peter's bones in Rome to try to establish his presence in Rome. And there are 2 Catholic monasteries that say they both have John the Baptist's head. Though the Bible is silent about that, we appreciate that the Catholic church found out something we never knew about. That John the Baptist had two brains. :blink:

But, a spirit-filled Christian recognizes the Lord's voice behind real truth and does not recognize the Lord's voice behind purported "truth". The Spirit of God is indispensable for those who love God and want to be led by Him.


1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Axehead

Brother Axehead,

Not every single person was illiterate at that time. There were some who could read and write. As a matter of fact, it was the Roman Catholic Church who promoted literacy and the mass production of literature. Johannes Gutenberg was the inventor of the printing press, and he was Catholic. Before the invention of the printing press, the Holy Bible was being handwritten by Catholic monks.

When Gutenberg finally invented the printing press, the Pope had him print many Bibles. The first Bible that Gutenberg printed was the Latin Vulgate. After that many other books of literature were being printed. Gutenberg died about 50 years before the Reformation. Before the Reformation, about 10-12 million books were already printed all over Europe. So, thanks to a Catholic who invented the printing press, and thanks to the Catholics for promoting literacy and the mass production of books.

Furthermore, the Church at Jerusalem still exist, and they will tell you that they can trace their lineage to the Apostle James......so what do you have to say about that?? As for the Church in Alexandria (which is another one of the five patriarchs), they also have a Pope. As a matter of fact, the Church in Alexandria was actually the first one to use the title "Pope." Rome later copied the Church in Alexandria. The Churches that were established by Christ through the Apostles still exist today and all of them can trace their lineage to the Apostle that established them. That is the TRUTH.
 

Rex

New Member
Oct 17, 2012
2,060
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Kingman AZ
Brother Rex,

As you can see in the Bible, the Church at Rome existed because St. Paul wrote to the Romans. He was writing to the Church at Rome and introducing himself because he hasn't been to Rome at the time he wrote his letter. St. Paul was writing to the Church at Rome. He was not writing to the Roman empire or to the Roman emperor. So, again, as anyone can see, those are two separate things.

It was not us who sought to enslave anyone. That was clearly the Roman emperor. The Roman Church was clearly persecuted by the Roman emperor. And it is clear in the Bible that St. Paul was writing to a Christian Church at Rome. So after 2000 years, we are still standing.

Brother Rex, how little you know about us. We never claimed dominion over our sister. In fact, the late Pope John Paul II stated that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the left lung of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Catholics, on the other hand, are still in communion with Rome. The Eastern Catholics follow the same liturgies as the Eastern Orthodox Church, which has always been accepted in Rome. Instead of throwing insults, why not spew out some facts??

You can dance around my points and pretend to not understand, all of that will never change the bottom line, that you teach and follow a different gospel. Because Paul wrote the letter to the Roman church doesn't mean he wrote it to yours. Beside I nor you or anyone else need to argue about the history, lets simply look at what you teach today and your fruits. BTW Daniel describers you as two legs not lungs.


You and your catholic friends never tire of repeating the same story so allow me to repeat myself because nothing more can be said about the matter.
.
A gospel than seeks to minimize, take away from, as well as add to the written word "you also claim" as your cannon of scripture.

Now really how ridiculous is that, Out of one side of your mouth you insist and credit your church for preserving the cannon of scripture.
The other side of your mouth spends countless post denying it's message.

There is only one possibility, you promote a different gospel Gal 1:8-9

you seek to enslave everyone under Rome and the history of your church proves this out

As you also pointed out "Babylon" is a codeword for Rome

Below is a weblink from Strongs biblical translation of Babylon of the Old and New Testament. I provided the weblink below. As you can see, even your KJV admits that Babylon is the code name for Rome.


http://www.bluelette...ongs=G897&t=KJV


Furthermore, the Bible shows that a Church at Rome already existed before St. Paul went there because St. Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. He was writing that letter to Christians in Rome who were being persecuted by the Roman emperor. (See Romans 1-16).


Ask yourself what is the only vestige that still survives Rome today?
YOUR CHURCH that's whats left of the First Roman empire

I might add that your eastern leg also still exists though you claim dominion over it.
 

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
2,073
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In my house
You can dance around my points and pretend to not understand, all of that will never change the bottom line, that you teach and follow a different gospel.

[font=lucida sans unicode']Surely, you are not saying that St. Paul did not write his letter to the Romans?? The Bible reveals that it was not St. Paul who established that Christian Church in Rome. It was the Apostle Peter. It is already obvious from the Bible that there was already a Christian Church in Rome at the time of the Apostles. And who else could that Christian Church in Rome be? Do you know of any OTHER ancient Church in Rome today that could have existed besides the Roman Catholic Church?? Afterall, even the Jerusalem Church still exists today.....and even the Jerusalem Church can trace her lineage to the Apostle James. Do you know of any OTHER ancient Jerusalem Church besides the one in Jerusalem that was established?? [/font]
 

Rex

New Member
Oct 17, 2012
2,060
122
0
Kingman AZ
Brother Rex,

As you can see in the Bible, the Church at Rome existed because St. Paul wrote to the Romans. He was writing to the Church at Rome and introducing himself because he hasn't been to Rome at the time he wrote his letter. St. Paul was writing to the Church at Rome. He was not writing to the Roman empire or to the Roman emperor. So, again, as anyone can see, those are two separate things.

It was not us who sought to enslave anyone. That was clearly the Roman emperor. The Roman Church was clearly persecuted by the Roman emperor. And it is clear in the Bible that St. Paul was writing to a Christian Church at Rome. So after 2000 years, we are still standing.

Brother Rex, how little you know about us. We never claimed dominion over our sister. In fact, the late Pope John Paul II stated that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the left lung of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Catholics, on the other hand, are still in communion with Rome. The Eastern Catholics follow the same liturgies as the Eastern Orthodox Church, which has always been accepted in Rome. Instead of throwing insults, why not spew out some facts??

You can dance around my points and pretend to not understand, all of that will never change the bottom line, that you teach and follow a different gospel. Because Paul wrote the letter to the Roman church doesn't mean he wrote it to yours. Beside I nor you or anyone else need to argue about the history, lets simply look at what you teach today and your fruits. BTW Daniel describers you as two legs not lungs.


You and your catholic friends never tire of repeating the same story so allow me to repeat myself because nothing more can be said about the matter.
.
A gospel than seeks to minimize, take away from, as well as add to the written word "you also claim" as your cannon of scripture.

Now really how ridiculous is that, Out of one side of your mouth you insist and credit your church for preserving the cannon of scripture.
The other side of your mouth spends countless post denying it's message.

There is only one possibility, you promote a different gospel Gal 1:8-9

you seek to enslave everyone under Rome and the history of your church proves this out

As you also pointed out "Babylon" is a codeword for Rome

Below is a weblink from Strongs biblical translation of Babylon of the Old and New Testament. I provided the weblink below. As you can see, even your KJV admits that Babylon is the code name for Rome.


http://www.bluelette...ongs=G897&t=KJV


Furthermore, the Bible shows that a Church at Rome already existed before St. Paul went there because St. Paul wrote his letter to the Romans. He was writing that letter to Christians in Rome who were being persecuted by the Roman emperor. (See Romans 1-16).


Ask yourself what is the only vestige that still survives Rome today?
YOUR CHURCH that's whats left of the First Roman empire

I might add that your eastern leg also still exists though you claim dominion over it.