Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship

[St. SteVen]

What do you say? (topic link below)

Is Revenge a Sin?

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[Big Boy Johnson]

What do you say? (topic link below)

Is Revenge a Sin?

Yes, it IS a sin.... one has to walk in un-forgiveness to take revenge not to mention vengeance belongs to the Lord so those taking revenge on others are taking something from the Lord that He says is His which is dishonoring the Lord and is a slap in His face!

Romans 12:19 (see Deut 32:35)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[BarneyFife]

Big Troll Johnson :

Well you would certainly know about about being wrong again

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Well, he's not you, so it stands to reason that he couldn't possibly be right.
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[BarneyFife]

Well, here's what you wrote:

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But I didn't write it, SS, I merely quoted it from Nichol's book.
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Like Bunyan, they were upholding the 9.
So, by definition then... the moral law of the nine commandments. - LOL
Or less confusingly, God's law of human conscience.

(if I say it often enough, people will eventually believe it) - LOL

God's law of human conscience.
God's law of human conscience.
God's law of human conscience.
God's law of human conscience.

God's law of human conscience.
God's law of human conscience.
God's law of human conscience.

Got it?

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All things, whether physical or spiritual, are ordered by laws.

We cannot do that which we do not know to do.

For every verse produced to support "God's law of conscience," many, many more can be found teaching natural depravity.

Along with the obvious objections to the prevailing doctrine of eternal torment, one of the main reasons atheists hate Christianity is the rampant hypocrisy exhibited by so many believers who try to skirt around the Ten Commandments and justify their selfish ways.

Pick your commandment—it doesn't have to be the 4th.

And the reason so many increasingly tend to whack away at the law is that, as James says, the person who is guilty in one point of law is actually guilty of the whole of law, for he casts his lot with the basic concept of selfishness.

By far, the easiest target today is the Sabbath, and the devil knows if he can eliminate one completely, the spiritual immune system is compromised and selfishness can make great headway.

For arguments sake, what if the LORD is actually sitting on His sapphire throne right now, wishing that He could trade it and all the jewels He owns just for some substantial, regular time in communion with those who claim to love Him supremely?

What if He did set aside just such a recurring appointment in the beginning because He knew that folks were likely to get distracted and simply "wing it," otherwise?

But, alas, jewels will effect no change because Heaven has already been emptied in the offering of His Own Dear Son.
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[BarneyFife]

So it sounds like the Bolivian was lying to you. All of mankind has an innate sense of right and wrong. it's called a conscience. So I suggest that the man was trying to justify his wrong doing by saying he is honoring his parents so his conscience is appeased and he can still feel like he is a good man. Because deep down inside he knows he is doing a wrong by stealing. He wont admit it because he doesnt want to stop because it is an easy life? . But scripture dont lie...the man has no excuse, he knows it is wrong. That's why God gave us a conscience. Man had conscience even before the law.

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I'm not naive enough to think that my own singular testimony cinches my point. But if I've heard this same story from missionaries once, I've heard it a thousand times. People chop each other up to eat with child-like smiles on their faces. "It's called a conscience?" Do you think I've never heard of the concept of conscience before?

"Easy life," is it? The man had a college education, spoke better English as a 2nd language than I do as a first, and couldn't make a dime. Forgive me but you have no idea what you're talking about.

What does "before the law" mean? There is no "before the law" in the sense that it is interpreted by those who are opposed to the law of God as a rule for man.

If we live long enough we're going to see how well conscience works when the 4 angels of Revelation 7:2 cease to hold back the winds of strife which, being interpreted, is when the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from those who finally reject God's last call of mercy to unrepentant sinners. Even then He can't be fully withdrawn or we'd just stop breathing and pumping blood spontaneously.

Really? I own a hardback copy of that book. I love that book! I take it down and re-read the adventures of Pilgrim every now and then.

I didnt know it was unavailable. I must have got lucky with mine. It knocked on my door!
It was a real life door to door Book Salesman, and I like books so I took a look at what he had and one of them was Pilgrims Progress. John Bunyan was in prison and after he had been there for 10 years, he had a dream. The dream is the book, he wrote it down. I thought that sounded interesting so I bought it for $30

I hope you can find a copy. I might be able to give you the isbn number for it if it is on the book?

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I wasn't talking about the wonderful classic, "Pilgrim's Progress"—I was talking about another book he wrote specifically about the Sabbath.
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[St. SteVen]

For every verse produced to support "God's law of conscience," many, many more can be found teaching natural depravity.

The one with the most verses wins?
Is that how this works?

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[St. SteVen]

Pick your commandment—it doesn't have to be the 4th.

The existence of the 4th tells me the TCs weren't written for gentiles.
That's WHY God's law of human conscience is so important.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s
secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

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[BarneyFife]

The one with the most verses wins?
Is that how this works?

LOL - ARE YOU NEW HERE?!! OF COURSE, THAT'S HOW THIS WORKS!!!

Actually, I don't know 'how this works.' It was just a anecdotal remark. If I were interested in a scorekeeping contest, I would've gone ahead and listed a bunch of verses.

But we're pals, so I'd just as soon pass on that nonsense in your case.

The existence of the 4th tells me the TCs weren't written for gentiles.

What about for Jewish converts? And what's a "gentile?"

That's WHY God's law of human conscience is so important.

(if I say it often enough, people will eventually believe it) - LOL

There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."
There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."
There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."
There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."
There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."
There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."
There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s
secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Hmm. Since you're recycling verses, maybe I should've taken you up on the contest thing.

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[St. SteVen]

But we're pals, so I'd just as soon pass on that nonsense in your case.

Agree. No need. Counter-productive.

What about for Jewish converts? And what's a "gentile?"

Say what? - LOL
So... what exactly were Jewish converts converted from?

There are plenty of places in the world that have no such luxury as "God's law of human conscience."

Um... I think everyone is born with a conscience. (God's law on their heart)
Didn't you get the memo?

Hmm. Since you're recycling verses, maybe I should've taken you up on the contest thing.

Is that how this works? (oh wait...)
I only get to use a verse once? How am I supposed to remember that?
Not like the Bible is a limitless resource. Some scriptures are handier than others.
And only so many in memory.

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[BarneyFife]

So... what exactly were Jewish converts converted from?

Evil hearts of unbelief?

Um... I think everyone is born with a conscience. (God's law on their heart)
Didn't you get the memo?

And I think everyone is born selfish and slowly develop consciences—some better than others, I think.

And you're just wrong.

Is that how this works? (oh wait...)
I only get to use a verse once? How am I supposed to remember that?
Not like the Bible is a limitless resource. Some scriptures are handier than others.
And only so many in memory.

It's a joke, Son, I'm too fast for ya!

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[Brakelite]

Question: Does the Sabbath point to creation, or does creation point to the Sabbath?

(the word Sabbath does not appear until Exodus chapter 16)

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Genesis 2:7 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested ,(see below)on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.‭

‭07673 תבַשָׁ shabath shaw-bath’
‭
‭a primitive root; v; [BDB-991b, BDB-992b] {See TWOT on 2323} {See TWOT on 2323 @@ "2323c"}
‭
‭AV-cease 47, rest 11, away 3, fail 2, celebrate 1, misc 7; 71
‭
‭1) to cease, desist, rest
‭ 1a) (Qal)
‭ 1a1) to cease
‭ 1a2) to rest, desist (from labour)
‭ 1b) (Niphal) to cease
‭ 1c) (Hiphil)
‭ 1c1) to cause to cease, put an end to
‭ 1c2) to exterminate, destroy
‭ 1c3) to cause to desist from
‭ 1c4) to remove
‭ 1c5) to cause to fail
‭2) (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath

 

[St. SteVen]

It's a joke, Son, I'm too fast for ya!

"I say, I say. I say...
... that kid is SO dumb, he thinks a pigpen is somethin' to write with." - LOL



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[Brakelite]

A little bit. But it's who I am. I test everything for rationality. Children believe in all sorts of irrational things pushed on them by authority figures. They don't or can’t question in the same way adults do. Maybe Matt. 18:3 is an insidious verse inserted by the author to cut off the type of intellectual struggling with the Scriptures that I engage in. Or maybe it really is the Word of the Boss explaining how we must ascend that mountain, blind hand-hold to blind hand-hold. Perhaps we just have to let go of the “safe” knobs of reason if we are to get any higher.

At times I have a fondness for that view. It would be a relief to drop all these heavy ropes and pitons I brought for the ascent. But when I look down and see the abyss, I get self-reliant again, and just shift my tools to the other shoulder. Having found them useful at various levels, I suspect I’ll never let them go entirely.

I don't see any harm in reasoning with the scriptures, so long as you include the Author of them in the conversation. "Come now, let us reason together says the Lord"...

 

[Brakelite]

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This is one of the best posts I've ever read.

In my mind, at least, I don't rate posts so much on to what extent I agree with them as how honest they seem to be.
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Indeed. A degree of transparency goes a long way toward enjoyable and amicable discussion.

 

[Brakelite]

A little bit. But it's who I am. I test everything for rationality. Children believe in all sorts of irrational things pushed on them by authority figures. They don't or can’t question in the same way adults do. Maybe Matt. 18:3 is an insidious verse inserted by the author to cut off the type of intellectual struggling with the Scriptures that I engage in. Or maybe it really is the Word of the Boss explaining how we must ascend that mountain, blind hand-hold to blind hand-hold. Perhaps we just have to let go of the “safe” knobs of reason if we are to get any higher.

At times I have a fondness for that view. It would be a relief to drop all these heavy ropes and pitons I brought for the ascent. But when I look down and see the abyss, I get self-reliant again, and just shift my tools to the other shoulder. Having found them useful at various levels, I suspect I’ll never let them go entirely.

Becoming childlike as an adult doesn't mean you leave your intellectual capabilities at the door. If you view those climbing tools as the easy light yoke shared with your Saviour, you'll make it. Man-made contraptions built to make life easier, or even assist in accomplishing great feats in extreme sports, are still man made and to be treated with much suspicion. I was never an extreme sports enthusiast, unless one would call surfing an extreme sport (anything over 15 foot to me was extreme), but hang gliding, mountaineering, sky diving... In other words giving oneself a clearer more intense view of the abyss you are trying to avoid, never made much sense to me.

 

[Brakelite]

Who is YOU? The children of Israel.

We are all children of Israel. Do you realise the church of the old testament...see Acts 7... And the church of the new testament, are all one church? In Revelation 12 the pure woman depicted there is a metaphor for the church. In the old testament she carried the Messiah in her womb, and brought forth Jesus who lived, died, and arose to His throne with His Father. After that, the woman, in the NT, fled into the wilderness under intense persecution for over 1000 years. Same woman. Same plan of salvation...through the blood of the Lamb...and therefore in gratitude and love it's recipients being obliged to serve and obey the same God, whose commandments reflect the righteousness of Christ.

And remember that YOU were a slave in the land of Egypt

Egypt a type of sin to which we were all enslaved. Do you look upon the commandments as a bondage to Israel? I know many believe they are a bondage to Christians. Yet read again exodus 20:1. "I am the Lord your God Who brought you out of the house of bondage..." God was setting them free from bondage, in order to bring them under further bondage by giving them His laws?

Sabbath keeping with all its rules and regulations,

What rules and regulations? The Sabbath Commandment as given in the law simply says to keep it holy. How? By stopping. How hard is that?

 

[Brakelite]

If you are keeping the Old Testament sabbath you have got some rules to hold up to!

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. - Numbers 15

Yeah. Interesting that isn't it. It's almost as if the wages of sin is no longer death.

 

[Brakelite]

Is there historical evidence of
anyone loving as Jesus loved us? If so, show me. Thanks.

Moses. Was willing to die himself in order to avert God's judgement on Israel.

Did not Yeshua say that the sabbath was made for man and not man made for the sabbath?

Indeed He did. So why throw it back in His face?

 

[Brakelite]

Thanks for your posts @BarneyFife

The title and OP of this topic reflects the problem I am pointing to.
The title is part A and the parenthetical inference is part B

Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship​

The inferred part B would state, "If you aren't keeping the Sabbath,
it isn't the God of the Bible that you are worshiping." Meaning what exactly?

The topic starter can correct me if I am misunderstanding. But... it seems fairly obvious.

/ cc: @Hobie

Or, the inferred part suggests that if you don't observe the 7th day Sabbath, then whoever you do worship may not be the Creator. There are innumerable Christian denominations, individuals, and churches that no longer believe Genesis. They teach evolution. Maybe theistic evolution, but still they deny God's testimony of creation in 6 literal days. None of those churches, denominations or individuals would be observing the Sabbath, a memorial of the literal 7 day creation week.

 

[Brakelite]

Hebrews 10:16
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;.../KJV

Romans 1:20
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:.../KJV

So it sounds like the Bolivian was lying to you. All of mankind has an innate sense of right and wrong. it's called a conscience. So I suggest that the man was trying to justify his wrong doing by saying he is honoring his parents so his conscience is appeased and he can still feel like he is a good man. Because deep down inside he knows he is doing a wrong by stealing. He wont admit it because he doesnt want to stop because it is an easy life? . But scripture dont lie...the man has no excuse, he knows it is wrong. That's why God gave us a conscience. Man had conscience even before the law.

Take a read through some of the latest encyclicals from the current Pope. He advocates a system of church and state government on a global scale that would enforce the removal of "abundance" from some in order to appease the demands of the less fortunate. He summarises the concept as appealing to the command good. Klaus Schwab endorses the same concept... You will own nothing and be happy. It's called fascist socialism.