It is a lie. If God sends one a strong delusion to believe a lie, do they have freewill to counter that and believe the truth ? I say NO what say you
CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity
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2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Those to whom God sends a strong delusion were those "who did not believe the truth". That clearly indicates they earlier had a choice to either believe or not and they did not. If that were not the case, then why would he bother sending them a delusion.
Someone under strong delusion by God does not have freewill to believe the Gospel
They don't believe the truth because they were not Christ Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Logikos
Active Member
I suspect, although I cannot be dogmatic about this point, that children are reared to maturity at which time they will be asked to choose whether they wish to remain with God or not. Some might think that no one so raised would ever choose to depart but the discounts the degree to which people are capable of evil.
However, aside from that rather obscure position, I would say, as a general rule that children who die are not condemned to Hell as you clearly believe.
Romans 5
The whole book, really but chapter five in particular.
Children are born spiritually alive and aware of God. This is proven not only by Paul's explicit statements but also by occurrences like when the unborn child who would become John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb at the approach of Jesus who was also an unborn baby at the time.
As per the caveat explain above, it would not be as accurate to say that I believe that children who die "go straight to heaven". Rather, it would be more accurate to say that children who die are not condemned to Hell.
Why would you believe that God sends kids to Hell because their parents are evil? That would be as unjust as can be!
There's a saying, "A father eats sour grapes and his children's teeth as set on edge." Would you say that saying accurately conveys your doctrine, where because Adam sinned, God sends babies to Hell?
Logikos
Active Member
Stupid question!
Of course not!
What sort of stupidity lead you to even ask that?
And you think you are among His sheep? Perhaps, but in Calvinism you can't know that for sure.
Again they dont believe because they were never Sheep, Christ died for His Sheep, so they believe, the non elect will be sent a strong delusion to believe a lie, their freewill cant help them not believe a lie
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you wrote Jesus is the atonement of the sins of the world. Atonement and propitiation are not synonymous and atonement means Jesus transferred ones sin to Himself and transferred His righteousness to them. So you declared Jesus atoned for everyones sins, so I needed to ask.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So when Jesus said unless a person is born again- according to you it excluded babies. What age is that maturity reached?
Well chapter 5 speaks of faith, salvation and grace. You said babies do not need salvation. they are already endowed with "eternal life" or whatever you wish to call it. Then at some point those Hindu babies have to be born again. Same with every baby who reaches your "Maturity".
Call it what you will bu8t they were born "saved" and then lost it at your "maturity" and have to get it back again.
So show that this means they have eternal life. I would love direct references to Pauls "explicit statements " as you said.
So you hold to some kind of purgatory or limbo then????
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never wrote or implied this.
According to Paul,, Yes!!
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
So you have a plan B for babies. Now what about people who never have a chance ot hear the gospel? do you have a plan C??
Logikos
Active Member
I never said this. Who is it that you're arguing against here?
I will not help you, by the way. You seem intent on intentionally misrepresenting my position because.....well....I don't know why. Trying to convince yourself of something, I suppose. I don't really care but I will not clarify what I've said for your benefit. You want to be stupid, be stupid.
Logikos
Active Member
No, I didn't.
He is that but that isn't what I wrote.
Guess what! You don't get to decide what words mean!
atonement /ə-tōn′mənt/
noun
- Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.
- An individual's reconciliation with God by means of repentance and confession of one's transgressions.
- The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.
propitiate /prō-pĭsh′ē-āt″/
transitive verb
- To gain or regain the goodwill or favor of; appease.
"propitiate the gods with a sacrifice." - To appease to render favorable; to make propitious; to conciliate.
- To make propitiation; to atone.
Oops! I guess you don't really know what you're talking about!
And, as with bf52, I will not help you here. Neither of you are interested in having a conversation with anyone you don't already agree with. You two should go behind the bushes and make out or something. Just anything that doesn't involve wasting my time with stupidity that doesn't even try to understand anything. In short, you both bore me to death! You act like I care what you think. I do not!
Logikos
Active Member
Twenty.
I will not explain it to you further. You have no desire to discuss or to understand.
No, I will not call it what YOU will! Babies are not saved because they were never lost!
Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
I will not quote those again. If you can't keep track of the discussion then I won't help you keep up.
Certainly not purgatory! Do you even know what purgatory is?
I wouldn't even be willing to call it any kind of limbo. It's simply that they will be reared to maturity and then asked to choose. Why is that so hard to understand?
Of course you did! What are we even talking about? There are only two options, Ronald!! You deny that children go to heaven or else we wouldn't be having this discussion and so Hell is where you must believe they go! What other option could their be?
I KNEW YOU WOULD SAY THIS!!!!!
I can hardly believe it! In thirty years of doing this, I have never attempted this where it worked until you! Congratulations!!!
GOD HATES YOUR DOCTRINE, RONALD!!! And I've got the verbatim proof!
I can't quote this the whole chapter because of the arbitrary length restrictions placed on posts here but the entire chapter is all about how God hates the exact saying that you just endorsed and quoted a whole bunch of out of context scripture to support! What a laugh!
Read it - all of it!......
Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten [a]on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not [b]exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true [c]judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten [a]on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not [b]exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true [c]judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten [d]on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten [d]on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
14 “If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten [e]on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from [f]the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten [e]on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from [f]the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18 “As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” (quoted from the New King James)
The doctrines of original sin and total depravity cannot survive even a cursory reading of this chapter!
None of the above is even the slightest bit relevant to the topic at hand.10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
snip for brevity
By the way, the elder of those two boys never served the younger! Didn't happen!!
OOPS! I guess you don't really know what you're talking about!
God is just!
That's very nearly all we have to go on with regard to those who have not had an opportunity to accept or reject the gospel (with the possible exception of portions of Romans 1 & 2, which I won't go into here).
Suffice it to say that God will deal with mankind, justly. That is all we need know.
No, you are wrong. It is not that they don't believe because they weren't sheep. They weren't sheep because they didn't believe. You Calvinists always get so much wrong, and not just wrong, but actually anti-biblical.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
OOPS! NOw try looking these words up in a greek dictionary.
propitiation: hilasmos:
- an appeasing, propitiating
- the means of appeasing, a propitiation
ἱλασμός hilasmós, hil-as-mos'; atonement, i.e. (concretely) an expiator:—propitiation.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G2434:
ἱλασμός, -οῦ, ὁ, (ἱλάσκομαι);
1. an appeasing, propitiating, Vulg. propitiatio, (Plutarch, de sera num. vind. c. 17; plural joined with καθαρμαι, Plutarch, Sol. 12; with the genitive of the object τῶν θεῶν, the Orphica Arg. 39; Plutarch, Fab. 18; θεῶν μῆνιν ἱλασμοῦ καὶ χαριστηρίων δεομένην, vit. Camill. 7 at the end; ποιεῖσθαι ἱλασμόν, of a priest offering an expiatory sacrifice, 2 Macc. 3:33).
2. in Alex. usage the means of appeasing, a propitiation: Philo, alleg. leg. 3 § 61; προσοίσουσιν ἱλασμόν, for חַטָּאת, Ezekiel 44:27; περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, of Christ, 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10 (κριὸς τοῦ ἱλασμοῦ, Numbers 5:8; [cf. ἡμέρα τ. ἱλασμοῦ, Leviticus 25:9]; also for סְלִיחָה, forgiveness, Psalm 129:4 (Ps. 130:4); Daniel 9:9, Theodotion). [Cf. Trench § 77.]
atonement: katallage:
Transliteration
katallagē (Key)
Pronunciation
kat-al-lag-ay'
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From καταλλάσσω (G2644)
Greek Inflections of καταλλαγή [?]
mGNT
4x in 3 unique form(s) TR
4x in 3 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
καταλλαγὴ — 1x
καταλλαγὴν — 1x
καταλλαγῆς — 2x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:258,40
Trench's Synonyms: lxxvii. ἀπολύτρωσις, καταλλαγή, ἱλασμός.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 4x
The KJV translates Strong's G2643 in the following manner: reconciliation (2x), atonement (1x), reconciling (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- exchange
- of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values
- adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour
- in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ
καταλλαγή katallagḗ, kat-al-lag-ay'; from G2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:—atonement, reconciliation(-ing).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G2643:
καταλλαγή, καταλλαγῆς, ἡ (καταλλάσσω, which see);
1. exchange; of the business of money-changers, exchanging equivalent values ((Aristotle, others)). Hence,
2. adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ: 2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή), Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God, Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)
I do know what I am talking about.
one is a sacrifice and the other is a reconciling. completely different things.
Geesh when you Armeniasts get shown wrong- why is it that you always resort to juvenile practices and just start name calling?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So an 18 year old raping murderer dies- they go to heaven. Okay then.
So until they are 20 they die and go to heaven?
What does this have to do with babies being spiritually alive till they are twenty.
So gods word lied here! Okay we know what you believe.
I never wrote that children go to the lake of fire due to their parents. They are by nature objects of wrath as Paul said in ephesians 2
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