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Why ? Jesus's return trumps everything.We need to deal with the following first. IMO, anyway.
Gog/Magog does not involve all the nations of the world. So all of the military of the world's armies will not be destroyed, nor participateHow about tanks, things of that nature? Wonder why the Jews never bothered to destroy those weapons of war as well during this 7 years leading up to verse 20?
Gog/Magog does not involve all the nations of the world. So all of the military of the world's armies will not be destroyed, nor participate
7 years later, Armageddon involves all nations of the world. Plus, in countries like Russia, there will be a rebuilding effort made of their military.
The prince who shall come, right after Gog/Magog will be the little horn coming from north and west of Israel into the middle east with a strong army - Daniel 8:9. He will occupy the middle east on the premise of being peace keeper, Daniel 8:25, but with underlying reason of gaining control of all the middle east oil. He will be the leader of a ten leader European panel of leaders.
Joe,Dear Zao is life,
I don't teach "religion". Religion is what orthodox Christianity teaches and has been "handing down" since it was established.
Religion is how carnal man approaches God. Scripture calls it the crooked way of "works".
Religion is also what Satan's "another gospel" teaches. When a believer mixes works with faith, they are committing the "sin that leads to death". This is how Satan kills the saints and is what Paul means when a believer "falls away".
Christ is mankind's Savior, and as such, He does 100% of the work of saving us. Mankind contributes nothing because they have nothing they can contribute. As a result, Paul says the Elect have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation. It truly was a gift from God.
When Christ begins His work within a person, He will first come to them (without their asking or permission to come) and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Shortly after they receive the Early Rain, Satan will come to them, too, and plant his seed of the spirit of anti-Christ within them (parable of the wheat and the tares). At this point, a spiritual battle ensues. Since the Early Rain left the new believer spiritually blind and carnal, Satan has no problem deceiving the new believer. They will then readily accept his "another gospel" and fall from grace. With the spirit of anti-Christ now controlling the believer, the believer will become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43:45) and become a "man of sin". The "man of sin" is described as a Seven Headed Beast in Revelation chapter 13. The second beast who controls the first beast represents the spirit of anti-Christ.
With the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling the believer, the Abomination of Desolation occurs within them. For the Elect believers, Christ will come a second time and pour out the Latter Rain upon them. With the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed. They will then "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves. This is also when the man of sin is revealed by the brightness of Christ's appearance to the believer who can now "see". When this occurred, Christ said to flee to the mountains as Lot did because judgment is about to fall (Mat 24:15-16).
If a believer has not seen the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves, they are not converted. They remain spiritually blind and under Satan's influence.
What I have stated above is what God's Word teaches. It is taught in a "mystery" to keep this world and carnally minded believers from understanding this portion of the pathway to salvation.
Joe
If I'm going to be honest here, if it wasn't for Ezekiel 39:9 and Ezekiel 39:12, it appears that Ezekiel 38 and 39 prove Amil, thus disprove Premil. On the surface Ezekiel 38 and 39 appear to be involving 2 different battles. But on closer examination that appears to not be the case.
Dear Zao is life,Joe,
The abomination of desolation that you refer to is this:
1 Corinthians 6
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
You have taken the plain and literal meaning of the Divinely-inspired scripture and twisted and corrupted it - making yourself guilty of being a false prophet/false teacher.
I agree. Another evidence of this is the fact that through the prophets' (all the prophets) repeated use of what scholars recognized in the book of Mark and called "Markhan sandwiches", Ezekiel wraps the battle of Gog-Magog with the opening and closing statements of the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel to God and to their land:
Ezekiel chapter 36 opens the theme of the restoration of the house of Israel to God and to their land, and Ezekiel 39:23-29 closes the same subject; and whereas Ezekiel 36:16-38 & Ezekiel 39:23-39 is one and the same prophecy and is referring to Israel, Ezekiel 38:1 to Ezekiel 39:22 is referring to the Gog/Magog nations.
(Ezekiel 39:23-29 is repeating what was said in Ezekiel 36:16-38, and closing the subject).
The "Markan Sandwich" employed in Ezekiel chapters 36-39 separates (a) the Gog-Magog war against the above people after they have been restored, from (b) the time of their restoration.
Also compare Hosea 1:11a and Ezekiel 37:15-28. The two passages are one and the same promise.
1. Ezekiel Chapters 36-39 promise the whole house of Israel that the tabernacle of God will be in their midst forevermore. Ezekiel Chapters 40-48 describe a new city and a new temple. Revelation Chapters 7 & 21 describes a new city, and the tabernacle of God dwelling among those who came out of great tribulation, and those who overcame.
2. In Revelation Chapters 11 and 21, the tabernacle of God and the holy city are measured. Ezekiel Chapters 40-48 give detailed dimensions of a new city and tabernacle.
3. The river of Life and trees growing on either side of its banks producing fruit which is for the healing of the nations is seen running out from the temple in both Ezekiel and in the Revelation (Ezekiel 47:1-12; Revelation 22:1-2).
4. Revelation Chapter 20's thousand years closes with the armies of Gog / Magog coming against "the camp of the saints". In Ezekiel Chapters 38 & 39, Gog & Magog's war is against the people who had already been gathered back into the land of their fathers (Ezekiel 36:16-18 and Ezekiel 39:23-29).
This Gog-Magog prophecy seems to be talking about a time after the house of Israel and the house of Judah had been joined again into one nation (see Ezekiel 37:15-28; Hosea 1:11; Galatians 3:28).
But that does not explain how the same metaphor being used in Revelation 19 regarding the judgment of the beast before all the above takes place seems to point to the Gog-Magog battle taking place before it takes place.
As @Randy Kluth says, it's confusing. And the only thing that makes it confusing, IMO, is the fact that the same metaphor regarding the destruction of Gog of Magog's armies in Ezekiel appears in Revelation 19.
All of which has already made me wonder if the ascending of the beast from the pit isn't the same as the Gog-Magog rebellion at the close of Revelation 20 (which Amils of course, do not have a problem with) - but the resurrection of the dead has to take place 1,000 years before this, and that occurs when the beast's armies are destroyed, so cannot occur at the close of a literal millennium that follows the return of Christ.
This thread is an Amillennialist's paradise.
But unlike Amillennialists who ignore all the facts that negate Amil, we do not ignore scripture which negates or seems to negate our point of view. And this thread proves it.
The seven years that follows the destruction of Gog's armies is another prophecy that I don't fully understand.
After many days thou shalt be visited is maybe key here then? As far as I can tell, there are only two places in the OT where we are told something like this. Ezekiel 38 being one, Isaiah 24 being the other.
Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited : in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
It is then a matter of, when is Isaiah 24:21 meaning? What ever period of time it is involving, it is at the end of that that they are then shut up in prison, what ever that might look like.
A lot of interpreters, including some Amils, conclude that the period of time Isaiah 24:21 is involving is the period of time that Revelation 19:11-21 is involving, and that the period of time that Revelation 19:11-21 is involving are events pertaining to His 2nd coming in the end of this age.
Obviously then, per this scenario, it is then ludicrous to insist that those in Isaiah 24:21, meaning the kings of the earth upon the earth in this case, that they are sent to the LOF at the time if they are shut up in the prison instead, and then after many days they shall be visited. Where it appears to me that when they are visited, it is maybe meaning what is recorded in Ezekiel 38-39.
If there is a connection here between Isaiah 24:21-22, Revelation 19:11-21, and Ezekiel 38-39, what then explains them being shut up in the prison during the era of time Revelation 19:11-21 is involving? If we say the thousand years after the 2nd coming explains it, but then compare some of Ezekiel 38:19-22 with that of some of Zechariah 14, and with some of Revelation 16, who would take any of those things to be meaning a thousand years post the 2nd coming, in particular, what is recorded in Revelation 16?
One might argue, nothing pertaining to Ezekiel 38:19-22 is involving any of the vials of wrath in Revelation 16 though, it is involving after the thousand years after the 2nd coming, and that none of that is involving the vials of wrath since the vials of wrath are prior to the thousand years, not after.
But then one needs to explain how the following verse makes sense per that scenario if Christ has been bodily present on the earth for the past 1000 years, yet somehow many nations didn't even know that until after the thousand years.
Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
As can be seen, these things involving this subject pertaining to the OP tend to raise more questions than they provide answers to.
Joe,Dear Zao is life,
You must be lumping my understanding in with others because there are things in your comments that I have never said nor do I believe.
Christ does not keep His truth hidden and this is not what He taught.Why does Christ keep His truth hidden? So that the unconverted church (the many) will become apostate ("fall backward, and be broken, and snared and taken") shortly after they are called out from the world.
You have twisted the teaching of Christ in your own carnal human mind and are teaching a false doctrine based on your own carnal thoughts and not on the Word of God, showing that you have no spiritual understanding.So that the unconverted church (the many) will become apostate ("fall backward, and be broken, and snared and taken") shortly after they are called out from the world.
What lies you preach, friend. God does not cause the apostasy of any part of His elect, the church. He never has, and He never will. Your claim is tantamount to saying that God caused Adam's apostasy. What you assert is a blasphemous insult to God. God is not responsible for the apostasy of Israel or of the church. The human heart is - and the proof already lies in the fact that your own doctrine is apostate, and antichrist.The apostasy of the church happened because God caused it to happen to satisfy His plan and purpose for saving mankind.
No believer was on a pathway "up to their conversion". Christ condescended to come and die for our sins and rose again from the dead. Salvation is all His work and the work of the Holy Spirit calling those to faith in Christ who are born of His Spirit when they receive Him.When God's Word is properly understood, a converted believer will see that nearly all scripture teaches about the pathway to salvation which leads a person up to their conversion.
I suggest Joe, that you earnestly need to do what you are calling those who Christ knows because they belong to Him, to do - because your posts are FULL of false doctrines NOT taught by Jesus or by His apostles, or by any of the prophets of God (I have not even listed them all).a blood thirty monster who destroys most of mankind.
Dear Zao is life,Joe,
No I'm lumping you in with the one who teaches what Christ did not teach, nor did His apostles teach, thus exposing the fact that He has no spiritual understanding but only the understanding of what has been produced in his own carnal human imagination:
Dear Zao is life,
You are ignoring all the scriptures that I have posted. The few scriptures that you have posted in no way contradict what I have stated.
Dear Zao is life,There is no point in quoting scriptures and then completely twisting their meaning the way you have done.
The seven years that follows the destruction of Gog's armies is another prophecy that I don't fully understand.
I don't fully understand it, either. The main thing I'm trying to figure out for now though, where does it logically fit? Does it fit before the 2nd coming, or after the 2nd coming?
What happens if we factor in the following?
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
If all men of war have been basically wiped out according to Ezekiel 39:20--Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war---followed by burning weapons for 7 years, whatever that might look like, couldn't that then result in what Isaiah 2:4 records--and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more?
Of course though, some interpreters, mainly Amil, apply Isaiah 2:4 to the here and now, and apply it in a spiritual sense rather than in a literal sense. But if we factor in Ezekiel 39:20, and the fact that hasn't even been fulfilled yet unless someone can undeniably prove otherwise, Isaiah 2:4 appears to maybe make better sense post that of Ezekiel 39:20 rather than prior to it, the fact Isaiah 2:4 involves nations no longer warring with nations. Not to mention, Isaiah 2:4 appears to contradict what Jesus said per the verses below if Isaiah 2:4 is applicable when the following verses are applicable.
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars : see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom : and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Versus what Isaiah 2:4 records.
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more
And since this thread is in regards to how many great suppers of God are there, maybe a key to determining this, is what is recorded in Ezekiel 39:20--Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war
And if we then consider Revelation 19 below, do any of those fit all men of war, is what we should maybe ask ourselves? If no? Why not? If yes, how then does it make sense, that if He already wiped out all men of war 7 years earlier, keeping in mind that burning weapons for 7 years has to follow this, why then does He need to wipe out all men of war yet again, not a long time down the road though, but maybe 7 years later?
Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Here's another thought: Isn't the prophecy against the nations talking of the nations generically?Once again, do these recorded here fit all men of war?