Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Brakelite]

Fair question. It seems Arius's original writings were largely destroyed. But his contemporary opponents quoted him numerous times in diatribes that have survived. Through this method we have his letter, subscribed by a number of his allies as well, to Bishop Alexander of Alexandria -- as well as Alexander's subsequent letter to other bishops quoting even more of Arius. And we have Arius's letter to his friend Eusebius of Nicodemia, quoted and reproduced by the latter. We also have Arius's Thalia, a poem reproduced by Eusebius of Casearea.

For more, I recommend R.P.C. Hanson’s The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God (1988), and Rowan Williams’ Arius: Heresy and Tradition (rev. ed. 2001).

Three Arian nations were destroyed by papal Rome, if not directly, at least through request and support, in the 6th century. The Goths, the Heruli, and the Vandals. These were the 3 horns spoken of by Daniel that were uprooted by the "little horn". In those days, with a little imagination and some clever PR, it would have been no big deal to invent justification for the destruction of those nations on religious grounds...ala heresy. Posthumous letters to friends, and/or from friends, could readily create a whole paradigm of beliefs that could be used to justify anything. I still clearly remember being taught growing up in Catholic schools the legends surrounding Patrick and his miracles and travels to and in Rome. This was even in the 1960s. How much influence did such fabulous stories generate when they were first promulgated? People were highly superstitious at that time, and relics, icons, etc etc were everywhere promising all manner of power to those who revered them...the Catholic church grew on the foundation of such lies and myths. It still does. I am very cynical of those letters and/ or testimonies regarding any of the early church fathers and saints.
Take for example the 2 manuscripts that became the basis for the Catholic Bible. One found in a monastery on Mt. Sinai, the other in the Vatican archives. They have been used as the foundation for a complete line of modern Bibles, and about as unreliable as the golden plates of Mormon.

 

[Brakelite]

History failure, Brakelite. You get an F for that assignment. You didn't do your homework.

The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained by St. Peter, was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D. (way before the 3rd century!), referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about.

It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf

Note: This question may very well be on your final exam. You can still pass the course, but it will take a lot more effort on your part.

With a capital 'C' as a noun? Nonsense.

 

[Brakelite]

Many examples would be great please, dnaiel

Examples of what in particular?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Proof from primary christian sources please

Primary sources? You mean those whom you approve?

Aunty Jane has the history on all that Pagan stuff.

Just a quick look at the things some “Christians” take for granted….

Christmas is not Christian and never was. …it was adopted and given a new name.
Easter still retains the name of the pagan goddess whose festival is still celebrated with her fertility symbols….rabbits and eggs……again under a false impression…that the word “Easter“ is another name for “Passover”…..not even close.

These two celebrations alone identify false Christianity because they violate what Paul wrote to the Corinthians…there was to be no mixing of Christian teachings with paganism…..the Israelites tried that and God punished them.

1 Cor 6:14-18…
”Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,“I will dwell in them and walk among them;And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.“And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. “And I will be a father to you,And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”Says the Lord Almighty.” (NASB)

Not to mention Halloween and Valentine’s Day……If we are not to “touch” what is spiritually “unclean” (as all false worship comes from the devil) then why is it OK to change the name of something “unclean“ to God, to make it acceptable to the masses? The churches won’t alter their ways because both celebrations bring a truck load of money into the coffers. It’s guilt money for some who don’t go to church at any other time…..how sad.

Now what about the names of the days of the week and the months of the year? All pagan gods. Pope Gregory had an opportunity to change all that with his “new“ calendar (around 400 years ago)…..I wonder why this “Christian” pope chose to offend God rather than change the names?

There is so much more….but the “primary Christian source” is the Bible.

 

[Brakelite]

Primary sources? You mean those whom you approve?

View attachment 43412
Just a quick look at the things some “Christians” take for granted….

Christmas is not Christian and never was. …it was adopted and given a new name.
Easter still retains the name of the pagan goddess whose festival is still celebrated with her fertility symbols….rabbits and eggs……again under a false impression…that the word “Easter“ is another name for “Passover”…..not even close.

These two celebrations alone identify false Christianity because they violate what Paul wrote to the Corinthians…there was to be no mixing of Christian teachings with paganism…..the Israelites tried that and God punished them.

1 Cor 6:14-18…
”Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,“I will dwell in them and walk among them;And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.“And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. “And I will be a father to you,And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”Says the Lord Almighty.” (NASB)

Not to mention Halloween and Valentine’s Day……If we are not to “touch” what is spiritually “unclean” (as all false worship comes from the devil) then why is it OK to change the name of something “unclean“ to God, to make it acceptable to the masses? The churches won’t alter their ways because both celebrations bring a truck load of money into the coffers. It’s guilt money for some who don’t go to church at any other time…..how sad.

Now what about the names of the days of the week and the months of the year? All pagan gods. Pope Gregory had an opportunity to change all that with his “new“ calendar (around 400 years ago)…..I wonder why this “Christian” pope chose to offend God rather than change the names?

There is so much more….but the “primary Christian source” is the Bible.

I could I think, justifiably enquire as to why JWs honour the Sunday rather than the Sabbath, seeing they are so exacting with regards pagan origins for Christian holy days?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I could I think, justifiably enquire as to why JWs honour the Sunday rather than the Sabbath, seeing they are so exacting with regards pagan origins for Christian holy days?

That’s easy…we don’t have holy days to worship God…we do that every day. Our meetings are held on days that are most convenient to the majority in the congregation…sometimes a weekend, or an evening of a week day….sometimes we share a Kingdom Hall with other congregations and have to organize meeting times to suit everyone. There is no special day of the week for Christians.
We are under no obligation to observe a Sabbath. That was mandated to the Jews…..I am not Jewish.

Exodus 31:16-17…“The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite [“a perpetual covenant,” RS]. Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.”

No one outside of Israel was told to observe a Sabbath.

Col 2:16-17…
”Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17 Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.”

Jews who became Christians could still observe a Sabbath rest day if they wanted to, but it was no longer a requirement…..The Law was no longer binding under the new covenant.

 

[Hobie]

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

And all the pagan rites, rituals, and doctrines it brought in, don't forget that part..

 

[Peterlag]

And all the pagan rites, rituals, and doctrines it brought in, don't forget that part..

I could have wrote a number of books on all the pagan rites, rituals, and doctrines the Catholics brought with them. I wanted to stay away from all of that and just focus on the attributes and Characteristics of the resurrected Christ. You can see that when you look at my writings from my website.

 

[Peterlag]

I could I think, justifiably enquire as to why JWs honour the Sunday rather than the Sabbath, seeing they are so exacting with regards pagan origins for Christian holy days?

I don't care what day of the week you call Monday. But I do care that people know who Jesus is. And it's pagan to think he has 3 heads.

 

[The Learner]

Examples of what in particular?

VIEWS OF TRINITY

 

[The Learner]

Primary sources? You mean those whom you approve?

View attachment 43412
Just a quick look at the things some “Christians” take for granted….

Christmas is not Christian and never was. …it was adopted and given a new name.
Easter still retains the name of the pagan goddess whose festival is still celebrated with her fertility symbols….rabbits and eggs……again under a false impression…that the word “Easter“ is another name for “Passover”…..not even close.

These two celebrations alone identify false Christianity because they violate what Paul wrote to the Corinthians…there was to be no mixing of Christian teachings with paganism…..the Israelites tried that and God punished them.

1 Cor 6:14-18…
”Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,“I will dwell in them and walk among them;And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.“And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. “And I will be a father to you,And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”Says the Lord Almighty.” (NASB)

Not to mention Halloween and Valentine’s Day……If we are not to “touch” what is spiritually “unclean” (as all false worship comes from the devil) then why is it OK to change the name of something “unclean“ to God, to make it acceptable to the masses? The churches won’t alter their ways because both celebrations bring a truck load of money into the coffers. It’s guilt money for some who don’t go to church at any other time…..how sad.

Now what about the names of the days of the week and the months of the year? All pagan gods. Pope Gregory had an opportunity to change all that with his “new“ calendar (around 400 years ago)…..I wonder why this “Christian” pope chose to offend God rather than change the names?

There is so much more….but the “primary Christian source” is the Bible.

The old Hyslop nonsense.

THE BABYLON CONNECTION?
128 pages | 60 illustrations | 400 footnotes | Price: $8
THE BABYLON CONNECTION? shows that claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection, takes a closer look at the oft-quoted THE TWO BABYLONS by Alexander Hislop, and provides some much needed clarification on this subject. In a scholarly and understandable style, this book explains why Woodrow removed his very popular book BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION from publication.

According to the teaching made popular by Alexander Hislop, if we went back to the days of ancient Babylon, we would find people attending mass, partaking of a little round wafer, worshipping a cross, going to confession, being baptized with water for the remission of sins, burning wax candles, and bowing before a divine Mother and Child. We would notice that places of worship featured a tower. Priests, wearing a circular tonsure, dressed in black garments, would give those who died the last rites. With monks and nuns in abundance, the Babylonians would be practicing essentially all the rites that are known today in the Roman Catholic Church!

According to Hislop, it all started with Nimrod and his wife Semiramis, thus the subtitle of THE TWO BABYLONS: “The Papal Worship Proved to Be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife.” But, any historical information about Nimrod and Semiramis is sketchy, at best. One can check the articles on “Nimrod” and “Semiramis” in recognized reference works. Not one says anything about Nimrod and Semiramis being husband and wife! They did not even live in the same century!

THE BABYLON CONNECTION? shows that claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection. Was Nimrod a deformed, ugly black man, and Semiramis a beautiful white woman with blue eyes and blond hair? Was She the originator of soprano singing and priestly celibacy? Was she the mother of Tammuz? Is the cross a symbol of Tammuz, the initial letter of his name? Are round communion wafers sun-symbols? Are candles, black clergy garments, the letters I.H.S., the fish symbol, halos, and church steeples of pagan origin? Does the Pope wear a crown with 666 on it? Was the papal mitre copied from the fish head of Dagon?

Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association

Sharing Neglected Truth, Speaking the Truth in Love

www.ralphwoodrow.org

Message from Ralph Woodrow regarding the former book, BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION.

 

[The Learner]

The Babylon connection? : Woodrow, Ralph : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

121 p. : 22 cm

archive.org

Amazon.com

Was Jesus Christ just a CopyCat Savior Myth?--Methodology

Copycat Savior Figures​

Figures claimed to be sources for the life of Jesus. Named entities in alphabetical order.

Adonis -- The Greek deity: A source for the life of Jesus?

Alcides (Or Hercules) --The Greek strongman/demigod.

Alexander of Abonuteichos -- A charismatic figure who started a quasi-religious movement; this is more of a claim of a social parallel.

Apollonius of Tyana -- Pagan performer of miracles and traveller.

Attis -- Phrygian and later Greco-Roman demigod. Also discusses the ritual of the "tauribolium".

Baal -- Ancient Near Eastern deity.

Balder -- Norse deity. Also discusses Frey.

Beddru of Japan -- As it happens -- a non-existent entity.

Buddha -- Two entries on this figure; one here and another here.

Chu Chulainn -- Celtic hero.

Crite -- As far as I can find, another non-existent figure.

Dazhdbog -- Russian heroic figure.

Deva Tat -- Heroic figure from Siam.

Dionysus -- Greek god of wine.

Hesus -- Deity associated with druids.

Horus -- Egyptian deity. Also covers Osiris.

Krishna -- Hindu deity. Two essays, one here on moral teachings and one here on life story.

Mithra -- Persian deity.

Osiris -- Egyptian deity.

Prometheus -- Greek demigod.

Quetzalcoatl -- Mesoamerican deity.

Salivahana -- Indian teacher.

Serapis -- Mediterranean deity.

Tammuz -- Sumerian shepherd-god.

Zamloxis -- Thracian hero.

Zoar -- Unknown figure.

Zoroaster -- Religious founder.

Critical Reviews​

Essays and book reviews on persons who promote "copycat" theories.

Acharya S -- Preserves the work of 19th century freethinkers.

Atwill, Joseph -- author of Caesar's Messiah.

ben-Jochanon, Yosef -- from the school that says it was all borrowed from Africa.

Campbell, Joseph -- General proponent of copying of ideas via Jungian archaetypes.

Freke, Timothy and Peter Gandy -- review of The Jesus Mysteries

Graham, Lloyd M. -- author of Deceptions and Myths of the Bible

Greenberg, Gary -- author of 101 Myths of the Bible

Harpur, Tom -- author of The Pagan Christ

Helms, Randel --Author of Gospel Fictions, which proposes that the NT borrowed content from the OT.

Higgins, Godfrey -- early proponent of the copycat thesis.

Kalopoulus, Michael -- review of Biblical Religion: The Great Lie

Kuhn, Alvin Boyd -- a proponent early last century. Sample items commenting on his works Mary Magdalene and Her Seven Devils and Who Is This King of Glory?

MacDonald, Dennis -- Author of The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark

Massey, Gerald -- another early proponent.

Price, Robert -- Review of Deconstructing Jesus.

Lord Raglan by "Justin Martyr" -- Raglan was an early proponent of the "copycat" thesis.

Thompson, Thomas -- review of The Messiah Myth

Amazon.com

Teaching Resources​

Shattering the Christ Myth -- my own book, with several chapters on the subject; hub page for the book here and see new website here featuring updated versions

Recommended Books -- a bibliography of books on the historical Jesus

Deeper Waters interview with Joe Mulvilhill

 

[The Learner]

The Contextual Abuse of the Watchtower Society
By Brian Orr

Note the other subjects this source the WTBS uses: https://books.googleusercontent.com...E6nv1emHqlCzmt79vuQc0TXO7ILCGPBGUWmVk068xQG3Q

 

[The Learner]

That’s easy…we don’t have holy days to worship God…we do that every day. Our meetings are held on days that are most convenient to the majority in the congregation…sometimes a weekend, or an evening of a week day….sometimes we share a Kingdom Hall with other congregations and have to organize meeting times to suit everyone. There is no special day of the week for Christians.
We are under no obligation to observe a Sabbath. That was mandated to the Jews…..I am not Jewish.

Exodus 31:16-17…“The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite [“a perpetual covenant,” RS]. Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.”

No one outside of Israel was told to observe a Sabbath.

Col 2:16-17…
”Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17 Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.”

Jews who became Christians could still observe a Sabbath rest day if they wanted to, but it was no longer a requirement…..The Law was no longer binding under the new covenant.

Winner

 

[The Learner]

I don't care what day of the week you call Monday. But I do care that people know who Jesus is. And it's pagan to think he has 3 heads.

rom 14

 

[Brakelite]

VIEWS OF TRINITY

Aaaaah. Am I allowed to do that?

 

[Aunty Jane]

The old Hyslop nonsense.

No…simple Bible truth…..why do you think the great harlot is called “the greater Babylon”….or “Babylon the Great”? (Rev 18:4-5) There is the Babylon connection….and we are commanded to “get out of her my people” because all humanity were imprisoned by her until Christ came to free them. Just as the disobedient Jews were confined to ancient Babylon, the faithful were confined with them. (Daniel and his three companions) When the 70 years of their punishment was up, they were released by a new king who had conquered Babylon….and a remnant got to go “home”…even though they were born in a foreign land.

All false religion finds its roots in ancient Babylon, being spread all over the world by the confusion of the language at the Tower of Babel. A common thread runs through all “Babylonian” based religion…..a multiplicity of gods, often in triads…..belief in an immortal soul that has only two destinations…..and a hell of fiery torment for the wicked…..none of these beliefs are of Christian origin.

“The old Hyslop nonsense”? or clear Bible truth?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

From the Roman Catholic Religious Corporation as it's "CEO", of course.

 

[Phoneman777]

As at best he only has a claim to be a bishop elected by a city as nowhere does Scripture state that the authority the Pope claims was passed on to him. Well, the authority of the Pope is not from scripture, but can be shown to be from another origin and authority. The College of Cardinals, with the Pope given authority at its head, is just the counterpart of the Pagan College of Pontiffs, with its "Pontifex Maximus," or "Sovereign Pontiff," which had existed in Rome from the earliest times, and which is known to have been framed on the model of the grand original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon.

The College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) came from the religion of the original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon, was then established in ancient Rome and the Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff") again established as the high priest of the pagan religion. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion as it had been in Babylon.

One of the things history show about the ascendancy of the papacy is that the church of Rome promotes the pope as the "Pontifex Maximus" or, Supreme Pontiff. The title Pontifex Maximus is mentioned numerous times by the early church fathers (particularly by Tertullian), but it was not applied to a Christian bishop. The early church fathers say that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom", the high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. The Pontifex Maximus was an imperial office, usually held by the Emperor himself, which made one the "chief priest" of the Roman "state cult."

In 63 B.C., Julius Caesar had himself elected Supreme Pontiff and became emperor of Rome and vested the office of Roman emperor with the priestly powers and functions of the Babylonian Pontiff (Babylon Mystery Religion, p. 80). Augustus kept the tradition of the combined offices, and the title Pontifex Maximus was used by the Roman Caesars as illustrated on a Roman coin depicting the image of Augustus Caesar (27 B.C.-14 A.D.) with his title "Pont. Max.," which is an abbreviation of Pontifex Maximus. It is well known that Domitian required himself to be addressed as dominus et deus [';Lord and God']. (Hemer, The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia in Their Local Setting, 85-86.) The Roman title "Pontifex Maximus" was rendered in Greek inscriptions and literature of the time as "#7936;#961;#967;#953;#949;#961;#949;#973;#962;". literally, "high priest or by a more literal translation and order of words as "#7936;#961;#967;#953;#949;#961;#949;#8058;#962; #956;#941;#947;#953;#963;#964;#959;#962;", literally, "greatest high priest".

Thus, the Roman emperors, like the preceding Babylonian emperors, now served as priests of Babylonian paganism, and bore the title Pontifex Maximus. One of the prominent features we find in Revelation is a prophetic picture of the revival of ancient Babylonian system of worship, and here we see a form which came into the center of the Empire. When Rome conquered the world, the sun worship of Mirthism and the Mystery Religions of ancient Babylon that had spread and developed in various nations, was merged into the religious system of Rome. The Roman emperors (including Constantine) continued to hold the office of Pontifex Maximus during this time. Constantine through he claimed to have been a Christian remained the pagan high priest the Supreme Pontiff, paid homage to the sun god on the official coinage and sought the support of the pagan masses and aristocracy of Rome. This signified a real claim to control the church as well as the state, and Constantine chaired the critical Church Council of Nicaea in 325. It was not until the Empire split in two, with the Western Empire going to Emperor Gratian in 360 AD, that he was persuaded to give up the position of the pagan high priest and return it to the bishop of Rome who was given the title Pontifex Maximus. Thus the title Pontifex Maximus can be traced in an unbroken line all the way to Babylon and its system of worship.

I find it absolutely hysterical the papacy claims it's authority OVER the Bible is granted BY the Bible.

The only authority the papacy has is derived from the "Roman dunghill of decretals" - yet, our "Protestant" friends who are no longer protesting are scrambling to get back to "mother church" as fast as their Biblically illiterate legs can carry them.

 

[Phoneman777]

A non-reply to post #15 because it has you stumped. Who killed the first 27+ popes? You run every time I bring this historical FACT up. You inject into the discussion a false history invented by cults. They have no credibility. You latch on to their lies because it meets some sick need.
Again, who killed the first 27+ popes? You won't answer because the truth shatters your stupid myth making about the early church.

The catholic church today is not God's end times church because the Bible describes it as a "remnant".

Was the primitive church Jesus established characterized by:

• the confessional? No, Scripture says we approach God's throne boldly and directly - not by a priest.
• transubstantiation? No, Scriptural evidence points to "body" and "blood" symbolism alond.
• infant baptism? No, not a single infant was baptized in Scripture.
• priesthood primacy? No, Acts 15 places "the apostles and elders and brethren" on equal ground.
• Sunday sacredness? Your own church boasts to have "changed" the Sabbath to Sunday.

See, by the papacy's own admission that "the pope has the power to change times, abrogate laws, and dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ" - and boasts that it has repeatedly done just that - catholicism disqualifies herself as God's "remnant" church because she doesn't even resemble the primitive church, let alone match identically to it.

The only question is: why do catholics who find out about this continue to align themselves with a false church? The only answer is this: their allegiance is not to Jesus Christ and His true primitive/remnant church, but to the Antichrist system located in Satan's Vatican ("divining serpent") headquarters in Rome.