A small rapture?

[Reddsta]

R. Bruno,

My question was..."from an "eternal" perspective...if God knew the end of the matter of creation from before it even existed...does that mean it is already complete or fulfilled in the mind of God and therefore exists?" Perhaps not a well worded ask.

No. His plan _ in His mind _was complete before the world existed. He is in such control of the story that He guides it through to completion.

It would seem we are saying something very similar...no?

Again...if God knows the outcome of His creation before he creates it...it would then be existent within His mind...and therefore fulfilled in Him...and that sense...in eternity?

But of course, this question is really above my grasp. It just seems logical to me.

Well we are of sufficient pedigree to dive in and explore none the less.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer. 1:5

That doesn't mean Jeremiah existed yet, only in God's mind. His design, everything about Jeremiah, He had a blueprint for as an architect has before he builds anything.

Well I am of the understanding that whatever is in the mind of God...Him being eternal...is the only sure thing there is...and it is available to us who are filled with the Holy Spirit who seek Him out and is referred to as "revelation" and is available to us...at His discretion...because it is in His mind...it is Truth.

In the mind of God...Jeremiah become eternal.

Redd...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

My question was..."from an "eternal" perspective...if God knew the end of the matter of creation from before it even existed...does that mean it is already complete or fulfilled in the mind of God and therefore exists?" Perhaps not a well worded ask.

Let's look at it from John's perspective in Heaven.
In Rev. 5:2-7, you have a scene in heaven that John witnesses that is two different time periods. One is prior to Jesus death and resurrection and one is after.
"Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
[This is prior to Jesus death and resurrection]. So the plan was in place since the beginning, but even in heaven, it hadn't happen yet.]

But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne."

HIS Sovereignty is awesome. Being aware of a mere sparrow if it falls to the ground speaks volumes ... hairs on my too! We can't mess up His plan either, for He factors in our blunders and sin. Good and evil are woven throughout history for His purpose. So He doesn't have to make changes along the way. Don't tell anyone I told you, but when He sent Gabriel to deliver a message to Daniel that there would be 70 weeks.( of years) until Messiah showed up ... that's what He meant. He didn't mean 69 weeks than a 2000 year Gap and then the final week. Sssshhh, let them believe what they want.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Part 2

The eternal exists “outside” of creation…creation exists within eternity…realistically creation exists in Him, He is eternal…and is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God. It is by this understanding that we can know that “nothing in eternity” is dependent upon “anything in creation.” Just think about that for a bit…

Now think Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” So here we have the creation of both the heavens and the earth…at their beginning…so they did not always exist and as such, have an end and thereby cannot be eternal. It was eternity “Himself” who…was before the beginning…who put forth creation within Himself…that seems fairly straightforward to me.

Now…the Lord Yahshua said…”those who believe in Him…have eternal life.” John the Baptist is reported to have said…”He who believes in the Son has eternal life”…that makes sense to me…because it is in Him only…that one can find eternal life…because eternal life is His life and who He is.

In Romans 8 Paul tells us who are called according to His (Yahshua) purpose…that He “foreknew” us and that we were predestined to become conformed to His image. That means that these “whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified”…He gives us His eternal life…

So…if one has “His life” in them…which is “eternal life”…then by virtue of having been filled with the eternal Holy Spirit of God…they are considered by the Lord Yahshua…a spiritual son of God who is partaking in “life eternal…in Christ.”

Now the impact that has on the end of the age, tribulation, or any type of rapture…has got to be considered…which via many years of personal experience, is not really given much thought or discussion. I am trying…however…often times it is due to the immaturity and carnality among the church that keeps this discussion from happening at all.

The predestined “spiritual sons of God” under the Headship of the Lord Yahshua Christ both on the earth and in the heavens constitutes the “spiritual man” known as “Christ” the son of God. The sons of God on the earth will emerge just before the end of this age…as assembled by the Holy Spirit Himself. If you see that…you will notice how it will begin to change your perspective of the end of the age happenings…in many ways. This perspective has the Body of Christ…the now mature sons of God on the earth as Christ until the unveiling of the Lord Himself as He is…and we shall be like He is!

Remember this is in reference to His “foreknowing and predestination” which indicates a “prior too” or “before something”…which in Ephesians 1 Paul will once again talk about those of us chosen in Him from “before” the foundation of the world…that is before creation. Yeh go ahead and look at it…predestined to the adoption as spiritual “sons to God” via the Lord Yahshua Christ.

Further on in Ephesians 1 Paul writes… “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” He tells us that “all things in the heavens and on the earth” will be “summed up in Christ”…of course…it is our “inheritance”…He is eternal and He is eternity itself…so there is the end of all that has been created including the heavens and the earth.

At that point…the end of the age…there will no longer be any purpose for the previously created heavens and earth…their created purpose was to bring forth unto God a spiritual son from every tribe, tongue, people and nation…when that is complete…this creation will be discarded having come to its end in having fulfilled its created purpose…God has no use for that which is not eternal…no…for His purposes…only that which is reconciled to Him which is eternal will exist.

Wow…there is a lot here for us…however I have said enough….this should open door to a further and deeper revelation of Christ…thoughts?

Redd...

You seem to think the Church is absorbed into "Christ," however you're putting it. Your argument is that Christ, who is eternal, must make us eternal as well. Correct me if I don't understand you properly?

We do not in any way, shape, or form become Christ. And we don't become like him in his Deity. We live forever, but we do not live forever in the same way that God does. He is above creation, and we remain forever below and among creation.

I understand that eternity and time are interesting things for us to meditate on. However, We are told that though we become immortal we do not become Christ. Becoming his "Body" is a metaphorical way of describing how he is Lord over us, and we are the instruments of His creation. And it shows our organic connection to Christ through the gift of His Spirit to us and within us.

We are also told that this physical earth and heaven will exist forever. So I believe the problems involved in their transient nature, namely the corruption caused by sin, will be fixed. But being fixed, they will remain, better than they were before.

 

[Reddsta]

You seem to think the Church is absorbed into "Christ," however you're putting it. Your argument is that Christ, who is eternal, must make us eternal as well. Correct me if I don't understand you properly?

Greetings Randy,

Your true lack of interest for whatever reason is obvious…fine. Your inability to understand what I wrote…and this opinion is based upon your subsequent responses…is understandable as well. Your complete ignorance of the subjects you “did” give a comatose type of response to…is on display.

Ultimately…it really is of no consequence to me…we all realize that…and as such no reasons for hard feelings…I will give you a heads up here Randy.

You seem to position yourself as a Christian teacher who can accurately represent Christ, God, the church and most of what is commonly called Christianity…to some degree. Your many written and posted perspectives are incomplete and based upon a mixture of divergent opinions. Again I understand these things since the largest sect of what calls itself Christ is exactly the same.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about from your last response to me…

RK> Post 63 “A Small Rapture”…“So I believe the problems involved in their transient nature, namely the corruption caused by sin, will be fixed. But being fixed, they will remain, better than they were before.”

Is that what you believe? Did you forget that the wages of sin is death? Yet you write something like this…”the corruption caused by sin, will be fixed. But being fixed, they will remain, better than they were before.” Will be fixed and remain better than they were before?

Wow…there is so much about a statement like that that reveals a great misunderstanding in the one who writes this kind of thing…if they believe it themselves. At face value it says the corruption caused by sin…is basically dismissed and will get better.

Regardless of what you meant Randy...there is only one option for sin…death…death is defined as separation from the eternal God…the wages of sin is death…death is diametrically oppositional to…life…and I am referring to the only life there is…eternal life in Christ…Randy.

We are living our lives in different houses with different Fathers…friend. There is really very little that we have between to discuss.

Redd…

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

RK> Post 63 “A Small Rapture”…“So I believe the problems involved in their transient nature, namely the corruption caused by sin, will be fixed. But being fixed, they will remain, better than they were before.”

Is that what you believe? Did you forget that the wages of sin is death? Yet you write something like this…”the corruption caused by sin, will be fixed. But being fixed, they will remain, better than they were before.” Will be fixed and remain better than they were before?

I am sure Randy will respond, but Iet me put in my two cents.
Christ did remove sin already, but the damages caused by the sin remain and we still see remnants of that behavior resurface. " Sin still dwells in the members of our flesh. So the penalty, death, has been forgiven.
The " transient nature" is where we are now, in the "already but not yet" redeemed state, still having to deal with the flesh. Then finally the " will be fixed" part is when we die and are separate from the flesh or resurrected - whichever comes first.
I think that is what he meant?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

He is eternal…and is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God.

Hold on, there is a problem in that statement. Jesus is not held together by the Holy Spirit. See, I did suspect something odd about your previous theological assessments.

Now think Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” So here we have the creation of both the heavens and the earth…at their beginning…so they did not always exist and as such, have an end and thereby cannot be eternal. It was eternity “Himself” who…was before the beginning…who put forth creation within Himself…that seems fairly straightforward to me.

Okay, you are delving very close to a barrier of knowledge beyond what we can know.
However, let me just say that there are two physical heavens and one spiritual heaven ( which is eternal). It is God's domain.
1st heaven is our physical atmosphere, separating the waters and the earth from outer space.
2nd heaven - the physical Universe
3rd heaven - God's spiritual domain

The predestined “spiritual sons of God” under the Headship of the Lord Yahshua Christ both on the earth and in the heavens constitutes the “spiritual man” known as “Christ” the son of God. The sons of God on the earth will emerge just before the end of this age…as assembled by the Holy Spirit Himself

We are adopted sons of God. JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. We are not Jesus, we are individual beings that will be like Jesus. Henis God, we are not.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Greetings Randy,

Your true lack of interest for whatever reason is obvious…fine. Your inability to understand what I wrote…and this opinion is based upon your subsequent responses…is understandable as well. Your complete ignorance of the subjects you “did” give a comatose type of response to…is on display.

Sorry you feel that way. I wouldn't call it "disinterest." I would all it "my honest feelings," which unfortunately you wish to scandalize. Perhaps you have a personal agenda? Perhaps you cannot handle disagreement? Whatever, if you don't wish to hear honest assessments, don't ask for them.

Ultimately…it really is of no consequence to me…we all realize that…and as such no reasons for hard feelings…I will give you a heads up here Randy.

You seem to position yourself as a Christian teacher who can accurately represent Christ, God, the church and most of what is commonly called Christianity…to some degree. Your many written and posted perspectives are incomplete and based upon a mixture of divergent opinions. Again I understand these things since the largest sect of what calls itself Christ is exactly the same.

I have a mix of different views because I *honestly* listen to opposing positions and sometimes agree with them, converting to them in the process. I'm not flaky, however, and accept correction only with substantial evidence.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about from your last response to me…

RK> Post 63 “A Small Rapture”…“So I believe the problems involved in their transient nature, namely the corruption caused by sin, will be fixed. But being fixed, they will remain, better than they were before.”

Is that what you believe? Did you forget that the wages of sin is death? Yet you write something like this…”the corruption caused by sin, will be fixed. But being fixed, they will remain, better than they were before.” Will be fixed and remain better than they were before?

Yes, that is a standard approach--not the material world will be absorbed by the spiritual, eternal world, or anything like that. I'm not saying that is your position--I was asking for clarification. Instead of getting clarification, I get insults?

Wow…there is so much about a statement like that that reveals a great misunderstanding in the one who writes this kind of thing…if they believe it themselves. At face value it says the corruption caused by sin…is basically dismissed and will get better.

Now you resort to mischaracterizing what I said in order to disprove anything that may challenge your position? Where did I say that "corruption gets better?"

Regardless of what you meant Randy...there is only one option for sin…death…death is defined as separation from the eternal God…the wages of sin is death…death is diametrically oppositional to…life…and I am referring to the only life there is…eternal life in Christ…Randy.

I've not said otherwise. You've gone out on a tangent to infer I believe in things I'm diametrically opposed to. Why should I listen to your criticisms?

We are living our lives in different houses with different Fathers…friend. There is really very little that we have between to discuss.

Redd…

Yes, if you don't want honest criticism, go find a place where you can protect it from all honest discussion.

 

[Reddsta]

Christ did remove sin already, but the damages caused by the sin remain and we still see remnants of that behavior resurface.

“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive”…”all” men are dead in Adam because of sin…those “in Christ” have eternal life…which is the life of Christ…and what it means to be alive “in Christ”…and dead to sin…”for he who has died…is free from sin…right?

Is that how you see Ronald? What does it mean…to be “in Christ?”

Sin still dwells in the members of our flesh. So the penalty, death, has been forgiven.

Paul in Romans 6 wrote this about the body of sin…“May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”…”knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (7) for he who has died is freed from sin.”

Is that what you mean…Ronald?

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

The " transient nature" is where we are now, in the "already but not yet" redeemed state, still having to deal with the flesh.

“Already but not yet redeemed” I have heard this for years…”already but not yet”…”already” what? “Not yet” what? Paul wrote to the Roman that we are “no longer slaves to sin…he who has died is freed from sin”

Then finally the " will be fixed" part is when we die and are separate from the flesh or resurrected - whichever comes first. I think that is what he meant?

Is this what you believe Ronald?

Redd...

 

[Behold]

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!*

When Jesus comes back to take vengeance on "those who obey not the Gospel".

(They have not believed it)....

So, why would the BELIEVERS need to be here for that?

A.) They aren't.

Why would God want the BRIDE to suffer the WRATH of God that is poured out during the Grt Trib, when the born again are "not appointed to Wrath".

If you actually study Paul, and not one verse and the rest a heretics commentaries, then you'll notice that Paul was also looking for the Rapture, and never the wrath of God.

See, the Believers are predestined for HEAVEN, not for God's Judgment, that is the Great Trib.

 

[Reddsta]

Hold on, there is a problem in that statement. Jesus is not held together by the Holy Spirit. See, I did suspect something odd about your previous theological assessments.

Well thank you for at least reading my post Ronald…to some degree anyway. Again…I certainly did not say what you suggest…haven’t we done this before Bruno? “Suspect” from “suspicious”…are you “assuming” things again Ronald? Like you did before…”suspicion” may be a gift…but it’s not from the Holy Spirit friend…it cannot be confused with Holy Spirit born discernment.

Here is the entire paragraph from which you seemed to have “cherry picked” to support your “suspicion” of my “theological assessments” and subsequently put words in my mouth...that's not a good practice.

“The eternal exists “outside” of creation…creation exists within eternity…realistically creation exists in Him, He is eternal…and is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God. It is by this understanding that we can know that “nothing in eternity” is dependent upon “anything in creation.” Just think about that for a bit…”

Nowhere did I say as you surmise Mr. Bruno…that “Jesus is held together by the Holy Spirit”…Why must you persist in this behavior? Are you completely closed to learning? Do you already have all knowledge of things spiritual?

Again Mr. R.D. Bruno here is exactly what I said…"realistically creation exists in Him, He is eternal…and is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God."

Perhaps I should have written it this way…”creation exists in God…He is eternal…creation is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God.” I will endeavor to be more concise in my posting...sorry.

Never the less its the same thing…depends on your spirit of discernment.

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Okay, you are delving very close to a barrier of knowledge beyond what we can know.

<Appreciative smile> Interesting statement Ronald…question…if I know a thing…how can it be beyond my knowing? If I am granted knowledge from God…how could it ever be beyond my knowing? Beside in this case…God told Moses to write the following…you were given the same “knowledge” as I am.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” The use of the term “beginning” indicates that it has a “starting point”…here referring to the creation of the “heavens and earth.” Ok…so if it has a “starting point”…how can it be eternal...which has no beginning or ending? If it is not eternal…then just as sure as it has a “beginning…it has an ending”...agree?

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

However, let me just say that there are two physical heavens and one spiritual heaven ( which is eternal). It is God's domain.
1st heaven is our physical atmosphere, separating the waters and the earth from outer space.
2nd heaven - the physical Universe
3rd heaven - God's spiritual domain

Ok, so I can see what you are “saying” here Ronald and I do not totally agree. Please consider a couple of scripture references that are directly attributable to the Lord Yahshua Christ in regards to His eternal relationship to the “created heavens.”

”For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens”… Hebrews 7:26 NASB

“He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)” Ephesians 4:10 NASB

We really don’t have to make this more difficult than it is…the revelation has been given…in scripture no less…let’s not turn it once again into a mystery. That is like turning the “wine back into water” Ronald.

Aren’t these verses speaking of Yahshua (Jesus) being exulted “above all” the heavens? Isn’t that eternity? Wouldn’t that be “outside” of the created “heavens and earth?” Isn't He the one who created it all?

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

We are adopted sons of God. JESUSBIS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. We are not Jesus, we are individual beings that will be like Jesus. Henis God, we are not.

I have never said to you or anyone I know…that we are “Jesus” as it would seem you are insinuating Ronald…is that you’re regularly encountered gift of “suspicion” at work again? You really need to look at that…who has told you to be suspicious of your brothers Bruno? Consistent accusations that are incorrect…what’s up with that?

Here is a quote of that entire paragraph that you question.

"The predestined “spiritual sons of God” under the Headship of the Lord Yahshua Christ both on the earth and in the heavens constitutes the “spiritual man” known as “Christ” the son of God. The sons of God on the earth will emerge just before the end of this age…as assembled by the Holy Spirit Himself. If you see that…you will notice how it will begin to change your perspective of the end of the age happenings…in many ways. This perspective has the Body of Christ…the now mature sons of God on the earth as Christ until the unveiling of the Lord Himself as He is…and we shall be like He is!"

Do you or anyone you know actually have any idea what I meant by that paragraph? Why not deal with the “subject matter” Ronald? As opposed to continually driving at me with the thing "you wrongly" discern and then append to "me as being wrong?”

Clearly as observed over and over in my recent interactions with you Bruno…you seem to be more interested in “proving me wrong” rather than actually working with what I have posted…you need to look at what is motivating that…is it the love of God for a brother? Or is it enmity?

Redd...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Is that how you see Ronald? What does it mean…to be “in Christ?”

May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”…”knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (7) for he who has died is freed from sin.”

Is that what you mean…Ronald?

That is partially it. That concept is not as outwardly, behaviorally, mindfully realized when we become Christians. God sanctifies us spiritually in an instant, but gradually in our minds and behavior. We grow spiritually and we don't walk in the Spirit.
But listen, a teaching about "sarx" and how it wars against our spirit is an advanced study that I cannot simply describe in a few sentences. "Sin dwells in the members of our flesh" is a reality and scriptural. We are no longer slaves to it and have been forgiven, but itndoesn't mean we don't backslide into our old ways. This is why we are encouraged over and over again because our behavior doesn't all of a sudden become perfect. Paul wrestled with this in Romans 7. "I do the things I do not want to do ... it is not me but sin that dwells in me. It is conflicting to begin with but then be ones more manageable ... but decades later, and I still think selfishly sometimes, still impatient, and sometimes when I am called to love my neighbor, I say no, not today. I don't feel like the
Good Samaitan ALL THE TIME. So that is a mild war that goes on, to love or not to love.

Already but not yet redeemed” I have heard this for years…”already but not yet”…”already” what? “Not yet” what? Paul wrote to the Roman that we are “no longer slaves to sin…he who has died is freed from sin”

Lol. Already saved but not yet fully redeemed and not yet glorified. We haven't been resurrected like Christ yet. Do you have your new eternal body yet? NO.
We are freed from the bondage of sin. We don't practice it. But we often do the same things non- believers do. Is it sin for them and not for us?

 

[St. SteVen]

Your thoughts?

Good topic, thanks.
I had a similar experience to yours.
I was surprised to find Pre-Trib "debunked" when I arrived here.

/

 

[Reddsta]

When Jesus comes back to take vengeance on "those who obey not the Gospel".

(They have not believed it)....

So, why would the BELIEVERS need to be here for that?

For those who have "not believed"...they are destined for the wrath of God...I agree.

However...surely you realize that there is more to "Christ" than simply Yahshua...that may be a reason why...Behold?

A.) They aren't.

Why would God want the BRIDE to suffer the WRATH of God that is poured out during the Grt Trib, when the born again are "not appointed to Wrath".

A.) Don't be too sure friend...

I agree with you that it is impossible for the "wrath of God" to poured out upon the "bride, house, temple, kingdom or son of God"...right? However to come to the conclusion that it is for that reason...that the Lord must take His body out of the earth...is highly questionable.

The only reason I say that is because the scriptural record reveals that He has done it before...God did not spare His wrath upon Egypt "while" Israel was yet in Egypt.

Egypt being a type of the "world" Pharaoh being a type of "Satan" and Israel being a type of the "bride." Egypt in its entirety...its military, economy, and first born were completely and utterly destroyed by the wrath of God...while Israel was there physically in Egypt with the Egyptians.

That said...clearly...it was the blood of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world that protected "Israel" who was a type of "Christ."

The question is...who is Christ? If that is understood...then the idea that God has given all judgment to His son...carries significant weight...no? If the son of God is the judge...the question is how would he ever pour out His Father's wrath upon Himself...like I said earlier...that is impossible.

I know that competes with traditional "rapture" belief structure...however the plausibility is undeniable...the text speaks for God.

Redd...

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

He is eternal…and is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God.

I am a stickler with how things are worded and that threw me. Not just me, but most people, English professors as well would comprehend this statement to mean that you are claiming that Jeaus is held together in and by the Holy Spirit.
So be careful how you word things.

Perhaps I should have written it this way…”creation exists in God…He is eternal…creation is held together, in place and functioning…in and by the Spirit of God.” I will endeavor to be more concise in my posting...sorry.

Perhaps.

 

[Behold]

However to come to the conclusion that it is for that reason...that the Lord must take His body out of the earth...is highly questionable.

Its "questionable" to you, you mean,

According to your opinion.

But, if you realize that God's wrath is on UNBELIEVERS..

JOHN 3:36

NOT the Bride.
Not the Body of Christ
Not the Born again.

See, God poured out the "cup" on Jesus, who said..>"if possible let this CUP, pass from ME".

See that Cup?
That is God's Judgment against Sin.. And If fell on Jesus, never will it fall on the Born again.

The Born again will never be Judged by God's Wrath........not on earth and not in eternity.

God does not pour out His Wrath on those who are "IN Christ"... "one with God" and already """seated in Heavenly places in Christ".

Who is that?

All the born again.

Are you one?

So, the WRATH to come, is not going to fall on The Sons/Daughter's of God, who were born again before the Trib started.

 

[Randy Kluth]

When Jesus comes back to take vengeance on "those who obey not the Gospel".

(They have not believed it)....

So, why would the BELIEVERS need to be here for that?

A.) They aren't.

Why would God want the BRIDE to suffer the WRATH of God that is poured out during the Grt Trib, when the born again are "not appointed to Wrath".

If you actually study Paul, and not one verse and the rest a heretics commentaries, then you'll notice that Paul was also looking for the Rapture, and never the wrath of God.

See, the Believers are predestined for HEAVEN, not for God's Judgment, that is the Great Trib.

Pre-Wrath has that down in a Postrib context. I'm not Pre-Wrath, though in agreement with you and them that Christians are not looking forward to being punished by God.

So what is the "Wrath" we are to avoid? I think it refers to anything that kills us and sends us to Hell. Though God sends judgments upon the world like COVID, it is not for us.

We may get COVID, but that's due to our proximity to the wicked, and perhaps just the cost of being a human. But God is not punishing us. If anything He is just correcting us. That's how I see it.