The Gospel of Reconciliation

[Behold]

I have told you TULIP is the Gospel, you scoff it as calvin, thats on you

I dont just "scoff at Calvin", i expose people who are mentally OWNED by this Devil and his "doctrine of devils"

And thats "on you".

 

[brightfame52]

I dont just "scoff at Calvin", i expose people who are mentally OWNED by this Devil and his "doctrine of devils"

And thats "on you".

You scoff TULIP you scoff the Gospel of Gods Grace

 

[Behold]

You scoff TULIP you scoff the Gospel of Gods Grace

TULIP is not the Gospel.

Tulip is : Galatians 1:8

Calvinism is not Christianity.

 

[brightfame52]

TULIP is not the Gospel.

Tulip is : Galatians 1:8

Calvinism is not Christianity.

Yes it is, unfortunately you have been deceived to think its not.

 

[CadyandZoe]

OK, it seems brightfame52 has someone to assist him. Maybe you can help him find texts in scripture that support limited atonement. He seems unable to find any.

The verses he provided support limited atonement.

 

[Rightglory]

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening[life giving] spirit. That is His Life referred to in Rom 5:10 that they shall be saved by !

And so we know this is not true of all mankind without exception, hence Christ did not die for all mankind without exception , unless we come to embrace the heresy of universalism and make the false claim that all mankind without exception shall be saved by Christs Life ! 12

Rom 5:10 which you cite repeatedly is referencing two distinct events. You assume they are one and the same. The first is the reconcilement of sinners to God (which is all men, since all men are sinners) from death. In other words the opposite of death is life. All men are held under the condemnation of death by the devil Heb 2:15, Rom 5:12.
Because all men have been given life, (death to life, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:21-22,) now mankind can be called by the Holy Spirit. When a person believes and is baptised, a new relationship is born, called regeneration. This relational existence is possible ONLY because Christ died and was resurrected giving life (quickening - means to be given physical life - it never means to regenerate a relational existence, which theology calls spiritual life). That is the life by which we can be saved.
Because you don't understand what Christ accomplished by His Incarnation, you have no understanding what Universalism is either. You don't understand it because you conflate the two aspects which in your opinion means universalism - meaning all go to heaven eventually)

If you read I Cor 15:13-19 is explains that if the dead are not risen then Christ is not risen either. If that be true, then our faith is in vain, then to make the point, he repeats the same contrast in vs 15-17.
Then Paul makes a very succinct summary of Christ redemptive work in correcting the fall of man. I Cor 15:21-22.

Your theology denies this very clear teaching of scripture. When you say that Christ died only for believers, you also believe that Christ failed in His mission to reverse the fall, which resulted in the condemnation of death to ALL MEN, in fact the world as well. Which is what II Cor 5:18-19, I Col 1:20 also state very clearly.
Your view denies Christ's work because you believe He died only for believers, which makes Christ a failure, thus there can be no resurrection, there can be no new heaven and earth in the last day. This is why limited atonement is categorically, absolutely impossible.
Your view of a limited atonement means there is no atonement, we, all of mankind are still in our sins and condemned to death, dust to dust. There is no eternity. Man will die as the animals. We are created beings. We were created from the earth.

 

[Rightglory]

The verses he provided support limited atonement.

Then may I ask you to explain just how they do? Just to make sure you have the same texts, they are Rom 5:10 and II Cor 5:18-19.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Rom 5:10 which you cite repeatedly is referencing two distinct events. You assume they are one and the same. The first is the reconcilement of sinners to God (which is all men, since all men are sinners) from death. In other words the opposite of death is life. All men are held under the condemnation of death by the devil Heb 2:15, Rom 5:12.
Because all men have been given life, (death to life, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:21-22,) now mankind can be called by the Holy Spirit. When a person believes and is baptised, a new relationship is born, called regeneration. This relational existence is possible ONLY because Christ died and was resurrected giving life (quickening - means to be given physical life - it never means to regenerate a relational existence, which theology calls spiritual life). That is the life by which we can be saved.
Because you don't understand what Christ accomplished by His Incarnation, you have no understanding what Universalism is either. You don't understand it because you conflate the two aspects which in your opinion means universalism - meaning all go to heaven eventually)

If you read I Cor 15:13-19 is explains that if the dead are not risen then Christ is not risen either. If that be true, then our faith is in vain, then to make the point, he repeats the same contrast in vs 15-17.
Then Paul makes a very succinct summary of Christ redemptive work in correcting the fall of man. I Cor 15:21-22.

Your theology denies this very clear teaching of scripture. When you say that Christ died only for believers, you also believe that Christ failed in His mission to reverse the fall, which resulted in the condemnation of death to ALL MEN, in fact the world as well. Which is what II Cor 5:18-19, I Col 1:20 also state very clearly.
Your view denies Christ's work because you believe He died only for believers, which makes Christ a failure, thus there can be no resurrection, there can be no new heaven and earth in the last day. This is why limited atonement is categorically, absolutely impossible.
Your view of a limited atonement means there is no atonement, we, all of mankind are still in our sins and condemned to death, dust to dust. There is no eternity. Man will die as the animals. We are created beings. We were created from the earth.

You are forcing the texts to say what they don't mean.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then may I ask you to explain just how they do? Just to make sure you have the same texts, they are Rom 5:10 and II Cor 5:18-19.

Will you review my post with an open mind?

 

[Rightglory]

You are forcing the texts to say what they don't mean.

Will you review my post with an open mind?

absolutely

 

[brightfame52]

Men and Women whom Christ died for, they partake of His Saving Benefits, because Hes their Saviour, while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers. They, unlike the rest of mankind whom He did not die for, are reconciled to God, and abide in His acceptance and favor Rom 5:10, while others are under His Wrath and Condemnation while they are being enemies and unbelievers Jn 3:18,36 ! So thats how we know that some have taken part of Christ's Saving Death when enemies and unbelievers, and some have not while enemies and unbelievers, so how do you explain that ?

 

[CadyandZoe]

absolutely

If I understand you correctly, you believe that the cross brought life to all men. (If I don't, please feel free to correct me.)

I disagree with your statement that Jesus's propitiation brought life to all men. Your argument seems based on passages such as Romans 5:18.

Romans 5:17-19 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.​

​

Those who receive the abundance of grace . . .
Here, the apostle has limited the atonement to a subset of humanity. The atonement has brought reconciliation exclusively to "those who receive the abundance of grace." It does not apply to those who have not received the abundance of grace.

all men . . .
Paul was not referring to individuals here. His point is to emphasize that the Gentiles, as a people, have the same access to the means of reconciliation as do the Jews. Jesus is not only the savior of the Jews, he is also the savior of other people groups.

Earlier in his letter the Apostle emphasized this idea using the phrase "to the Jew first but also the Greek."

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9
There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek . . .

Romans 2:10
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The phrase "all men" doesn't indicate "every person who ever lived." It means that no people group will be excluded from the category "those who receive the abundance of grace." The gospel is the power of God toward "all those who believe."

Let's turn our attention to 1Corinthians 15.

1Corinthians 15:20-24 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

in Adam -- in Christ
Here the apostle compares two groups of people: 1) those "in Adam" and 2) those "in Christ". Not all of those "in Adam" will be made alive. Only those who are "in Christ will be made alive."

those who are Christ's
This is an exclusive group of people. Every human being is "in Adam" but not every human being is "Christ's" Jesus spoke about "those whom the Father has given me", which is not every person on earth, but only those whom the Father has selected.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”​

all will be made alive
this group of people are limited to those Jesus' "sheep", who hear his voice and follow him. He gives eternal life to them and they will never perish.

Contrary to UR teaching, reconciliation is limited to a select group of individuals and is not offered to every human being.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then may I ask you to explain just how they do? Just to make sure you have the same texts, they are Rom 5:10 and II Cor 5:18-19.

Our understanding of Romans 5:10 is informed by the context where it is found. The opening line of Romans 5 limits the discussion to those who have been justified by faith. Concerning those who have been justified by faith he says, "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." In this context the "we" in verse 10 refers to those who have been justified by faith.

Here Paul argues from the greater to the lesser. If we accept the fact that it took great magnanimity for God to reconcile with us while we were his enemies, how difficult with it be for God to save us when we become his friends?

Is this true for all human beings? Reconciliation is available to all human beings but only if an individual is justified by faith.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.​

in Christ . . .
Here, Paul limits his word to those who are "in Christ." Only those who are "in Christ" are new creatures.

reconciling the world . . .
The Apostle is not talking about individuals here. His reference to "the world" indicates the extent of his missionary efforts. His ministry was not limited to Judah, Israel or Antioch. Paul and others spread the message of reconciliation to the whole world.

 

[brightfame52]

@CadyandZoe

in Christ . . .
Here, Paul limits his word to those who are "in Christ." Only those who are "in Christ" are new creatures.

reconciling the world . . .
The Apostle is not talking about individuals here. His reference to "the world" indicates the extent of his missionary efforts. His ministry was not limited to Judah, Israel or Antioch. Paul and others spread the message of reconciliation to the whole world.

In addition to what you have been saying, the imperative in 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Is to regenerated new creatures Vs 17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And the imperative is in the passive voice, its the word bringing them to Faith in what Christ has already done for them

 

[Rightglory]

If I understand you correctly, you believe that the cross brought life to all men. (If I don't, please feel free to correct me.)

Correct.

I disagree with your statement that Jesus's propitiation brought life to all men. Your argument seems based on passages such as Romans 5:18.

So do I. Propitiation refers to Christ's sacrifice for sin. It is not being referenced in Rom 5:18.

Romans 5:17-19 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.​

​

Those who receive the abundance of grace . . .
Here, the apostle has limited the atonement to a subset of humanity. The atonement has brought reconciliation exclusively to "those who receive the abundance of grace." It does not apply to those who have not received the abundance of grace.

There is not subset implied or stated in this text. The whole context of Rom 5 is about that the condemnation of death through Adam was universal, as was the resurrection of Christ to give life to all men. You cannot lift texts out of context, nor can you change the meaning of words, such as all men to mean only some men.
In Rom 5:6 you have Christ dying for the ungodly If you hold to a subset here it would mean that all other people would be godly. So you end up with an opposite meaning.
Rom 5:12 states clearly that the condemnation of death, dust to dust Gen 3:19, spread to all men through Adam.

all men . . .
Paul was not referring to individuals here. His point is to emphasize that the Gentiles, as a people, have the same access to the means of reconciliation as do the Jews. Jesus is not only the savior of the Jews, he is also the savior of other people groups.

All men is all men. It does not matter if there are subsets. Through the Incarnation of Christ and His resurrection there is no difference, as to access. Every human being will be raised in the last day, will give an account for themselves, and by their choice in the life on earth will either go to heaven or hell. Life was imposed on the world, not just human beings. This is what I Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19 state. As well as I Cor 15:53-54.

Earlier in his letter the Apostle emphasized this idea using the phrase "to the Jew first but also the Greek."

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9
There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek . . .

Romans 2:10
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

None of this would be possible if Christ did not rise from the dead and give life to our mortal natures. If Christ did not give life, there is no resurrection, there is no new heaven and new earth which is why He needed to reconcile the world, the physical matter as well as mankind who was made from this physical matter. The created earth, mankind, and Christ in His human nature are consubstantial. If a change is made in one, a change is made in all.

The phrase "all men" doesn't indicate "every person who ever lived." It means that no people group will be excluded from the category "those who receive the abundance of grace." The gospel is the power of God toward "all those who believe."

All men means all men. As I stated, if Christ did not give life to all men, He gave life no one. How can Christ, if He assumed our human nature, died and was resurrected with that same human nature, not give life to all men. Heb 9:14-16.

Let's turn our attention to 1Corinthians 15.

1Corinthians 15:20-24 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

in Adam -- in Christ
Here the apostle compares two groups of people: 1) those "in Adam" and 2) those "in Christ". Not all of those "in Adam" will be made alive. Only those who are "in Christ will be made alive."

I must assume then that you don't believe all men actually die. Where are all those humans that did not die because of the condemnation of death through Adam. Rom 5:12, Heb 2:9,

those who are Christ's
This is an exclusive group of people. Every human being is "in Adam" but not every human being is "Christ's" Jesus spoke about "those whom the Father has given me", which is not every person on earth, but only those whom the Father has selected.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”​

all will be made alive
this group of people are limited to those Jesus' "sheep", who hear his voice and follow him. He gives eternal life to them and they will never perish.

Contrary to UR teaching, reconciliation is limited to a select group of individuals and is not offered to every human being.

you last sentence is correct. However, what you say above in you post is not even in the context of either Rom 5 or I Cor 15. The word "life" in the context of all of this is not referring to our spiritual relationship with Christ. A relationship that is impossible if Christ first did not give us physical life. Change our mortal human nature to immortal, I Cor 15:53-54.
The context of Rom 5 and I Cor 15, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19, II Tim 1:10, Heb 92, Heb 9:14-16, I John 2:2, John 1:29, John 4:42, I John 4:14, is all Incarnational. It is dealing with the consequences of the fall and Christ correcting the fall, so that man could not just have a relationship with God in this life, but for an eternity.

 

[brightfame52]

Correct.

So do I. Propitiation refers to Christ's sacrifice for sin. It is not being referenced in Rom 5:18.

There is not subset implied or stated in this text. The whole context of Rom 5 is about that the condemnation of death through Adam was universal, as was the resurrection of Christ to give life to all men. You cannot lift texts out of context, nor can you change the meaning of words, such as all men to mean only some men.
In Rom 5:6 you have Christ dying for the ungodly If you hold to a subset here it would mean that all other people would be godly. So you end up with an opposite meaning.
Rom 5:12 states clearly that the condemnation of death, dust to dust Gen 3:19, spread to all men through Adam.

All men is all men. It does not matter if there are subsets. Through the Incarnation of Christ and His resurrection there is no difference, as to access. Every human being will be raised in the last day, will give an account for themselves, and by their choice in the life on earth will either go to heaven or hell. Life was imposed on the world, not just human beings. This is what I Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19 state. As well as I Cor 15:53-54.

None of this would be possible if Christ did not rise from the dead and give life to our mortal natures. If Christ did not give life, there is no resurrection, there is no new heaven and new earth which is why He needed to reconcile the world, the physical matter as well as mankind who was made from this physical matter. The created earth, mankind, and Christ in His human nature are consubstantial. If a change is made in one, a change is made in all.

All men means all men. As I stated, if Christ did not give life to all men, He gave life no one. How can Christ, if He assumed our human nature, died and was resurrected with that same human nature, not give life to all men. Heb 9:14-16.

I must assume then that you don't believe all men actually die. Where are all those humans that did not die because of the condemnation of death through Adam. Rom 5:12, Heb 2:9,

you last sentence is correct. However, what you say above in you post is not even in the context of either Rom 5 or I Cor 15. The word "life" in the context of all of this is not referring to our spiritual relationship with Christ. A relationship that is impossible if Christ first did not give us physical life. Change our mortal human nature to immortal, I Cor 15:53-54.
The context of Rom 5 and I Cor 15, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19, II Tim 1:10, Heb 92, Heb 9:14-16, I John 2:2, John 1:29, John 4:42, I John 4:14, is all Incarnational. It is dealing with the consequences of the fall and Christ correcting the fall, so that man could not just have a relationship with God in this life, but for an eternity.

Atlas, you still dont get it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Correct.

So do I. Propitiation refers to Christ's sacrifice for sin. It is not being referenced in Rom 5:18.

There is not subset implied or stated in this text.

Did you miss it?

The whole context of Rom 5 is about that the condemnation of death through Adam was universal, as was the resurrection of Christ to give life to all men.

Negative. Paul qualifies his statement -- those justified by faith. You seem to have missed that too.

You cannot lift texts out of context, nor can you change the meaning of words,

I didn't. You did.

such as all men to mean only some men.

Paul doesn't merely say "all men" he says "all men in Christ", which is another qualifier you missed.

In Rom 5:6 you have Christ dying for the ungodly If you hold to a subset here it would mean that all other people would be godly.

No, that doesn't follow.

All men is all men.

Again, Paul doesn't merely say "all men" he says "all men in Christ."

It does not matter if there are subsets.

It matters because Paul said it matters.

 

[Rightglory]

Did you miss it?

I'm not sure to what you are referring.

Negative. Paul qualifies his statement -- those justified by faith. You seem to have missed that too.

The entire Bible is written to and for Christians. The first 6 vs is about Christians, but from vs 6 to the end Paul is referencing why we have the hope he speaks about in the first 6 verses.

I didn't. You did.

You just implied that the whole of Chapter 5 is about Christians. It is about mankind, who Christ gave life through His resurrection so that we can even speak about believers. Read very carefully I Cor 15:16-13. Paul thinks it is so important that he repeats the contrast again in vs17-19. if the dead are not risen, then Christ is not risen and any faith is futile, in vain, worthless. Then you have the succenct summary in vs 21-22.

Paul doesn't merely say "all men" he says "all men in Christ", which is another qualifier you missed.

But the context is not relational, in other words what we call spiritual relationship. It is speaking about the Incarnation of Christ by which Christ assumed our human nature. Thus all men, every single human being, including the world because we were made of this earth, was in Christ.

You do not have an understanding of the Incarnation at all. You conflate everything into a spiritual relationship and that is not the context.

No, that doesn't follow.

It of necessity does. If is was ONLY believers would it not say He died for the godly? If He died for the ungodly, then those thar are godly are those He did not die for.

Again, Paul doesn't merely say "all men" he says "all men in Christ."

It matters because Paul said it matters.

Context matters. That is also why the word "world" is used because He also gave life to this world. This is why we can speak of a new heaven and new earth. Death and sin will not dwell there.
I notice you did not address the universal texts at all. I Cor 15:53-54, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19, II Tim 1:10, Heb 92, Heb 9:14-16, I John 2:2, John 1:29, John 4:42, I John 4:14.
For whatever reason neither you nor Brightfame52 have any knowledge about the Incarnation. You treat texts as if they are all about the believers existence when it is about correcting the fall so we can actually speak of having believers.
You totally deny his resurrection which accomplished giving life to the world. One of the translations uses the word, "quickened" where it states Christ gave life. Quicken ONLY refers to physical life. It never referes to what is called spiritual life or our relationship with Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

You just implied that the whole of Chapter 5 is about Christians.. It is about mankind

False, the whole of Rom 5 is about the Elect. Only all the elect have Justification of life as Per Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All the elect are Justified, reiterated in Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

For whatever reason neither you nor Brightfame52 have any knowledge about the Incarnation. You treat texts as if they are all about the believers existence when it is about correcting the fall so we can actually speak of having believers.

Correct, only the fall in Adam is corrected, and he only represented the Church in his fall, thats why he and eve is a picture, type of Christ and the church Eph 5:30-32

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The non elect didnt fall in Adam sir, so they wont be and are not reconciled to God