The Gospel of Reconciliation
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You use a text, use the word reconcile, give the definitions but cannot state what was out of balance or at variance. Not surprised you have such a difficult time with your assertions. You don't even understand them.
In the analogy what is at variance is money.
In your citations it is life.
Rom 5:12 states what happened to make it necessary for Christ to reconcile the world, namely death. Rom 5:18 states what Christ did to balance or correct the variance, gave life. Since reconcilement involves an equal balance, St Paul reiterates this equation or balance in I Cor 15:21-22 as well.
Your answer was in the same chapter, but you failed to see it because you don't understand what scripture is saying. You have absolutely no understanding of the Incarnation, since you could not explain it.
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Justified in order to be reconciled !
Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Now we know that Justification and Reconciliation are one and the same, or simultaneously concurrent, because in order for a sinner to be reconciled to God, sins must be discharged and viewed as no longer debts to Gods Law and Justice, and must be reckoned as Righteous, no unrighteous person is reconciled to a Holy God ! Hence, them that are reconciled to God by Christ's Death while enemies, must also be Righteous and discharged of all iniquity before Gods Law and Justice as enemies ! 11
Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Now we know that Justification and Reconciliation are one and the same, or simultaneously concurrent, because in order for a sinner to be reconciled to God, sins must be discharged and viewed as no longer debts to Gods Law and Justice, and must be reckoned as Righteous, no unrighteous person is reconciled to a Holy God ! Hence, them that are reconciled to God by Christ's Death while enemies, must also be Righteous and discharged of all iniquity before Gods Law and Justice as enemies ! 11
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Reconciliation is Salvation !
If anyone tells us that Reconciliation is not Salvation, dont believe it, its a lie. The fact is reconciliation is Salvation in that its Peace with God. We read Col 1:20
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
This peace through reconciliation by the blood of Christ is Preached as good tidings of Salvation, for we read again in Rom 10:15
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Now Rom 10:15 is taken from Isa 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
The Gospel of Peace which is the result of reconciliation Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Eph 6:15
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
This is also the Gospel of Salvation Isa 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Its the word of reconciliation established by the Blood of Christ 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
If anyone through the blood of Christ has been reconciled to God, they have with God Peace and Salvation, and it will be Preached to them !
If anyone tells us that Reconciliation is not Salvation, dont believe it, its a lie. The fact is reconciliation is Salvation in that its Peace with God. We read Col 1:20
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
This peace through reconciliation by the blood of Christ is Preached as good tidings of Salvation, for we read again in Rom 10:15
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Now Rom 10:15 is taken from Isa 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
The Gospel of Peace which is the result of reconciliation Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Eph 6:15
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
This is also the Gospel of Salvation Isa 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Its the word of reconciliation established by the Blood of Christ 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
If anyone through the blood of Christ has been reconciled to God, they have with God Peace and Salvation, and it will be Preached to them !
You finally got something correct. The reconciliation of Col `1:20 is salvation. You still have not explained just what is being reconciled. The text says world, you keep saying believers. What dictionary do you have that says this?
Rom 10:15 has nothing to do with Col 1:20. This is why your statements have nothing to do with the texts. First, if what you say regarding Rom 5:10, Rom 10:15 is not even necessary. As you want to say that those believers *world" of Rom 5:10 were not only reconciled but also justified, your meaning that their sins were forgiven.
There is no place in scripture that says Christ's death/resurrection forgave any sins. It does not even say that regarding the secondary work of Christ, namely His sacrifice for sin. Christ's sacrifice did not forgive any sins either. Sins can ONLY be forgiven by repentance/confession by a person. God is not in the arbitrary business of forgiving sin unilaterally.
I gave you the answer for that reconciliation but apparently you either ignored it, or didn't understand it thus could not give any logical answer for rebuttal.
To give you another example of what Christ accomplished by His death/resurrection, I again refer the following to you.
First Christ died for mankind, Heb 2:9 actually the world Rom 5:10. He became Incarnate, took on our nature, to do what? To defeat Satan, why Satan? Because it was Satan that held the world, mankind under the power of death and sin. Heb 2:14-15.
That reconcilement of Rom 5:10 is explained by scripture in Rom 18. Explain this verse within your view?
If you disagree with scripture, explain what these texts mean within your view. Use other texts to corroborate your explanation.
Don't give me your noncommittal comment that I don't understand. Explain to me why scripture is incorrect. If you cannot defend your comments they are worthless.
Why Reconciled to God while being Enemies ?
Those Christ died for, unlike them He did not die for, are reconciled to God while even being enemies and unbelievers, because of Christ's death for them Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Now the unbelieving world religions do not believe this great blessing that attends the Death of Christ, however it is a True fact nevertheless and here's why.
Its because by the Death and Blood of Christ alone, Gods punitive Justice against their sins has been totally satisfied, and as a result of that, despite themselves, God is 100% reconciled to them, solely by the Death of Christ, and they are totally reconciled to God, no not in themselves, but in their Surety Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. Its just like all men in Adam before the fall were in a right relationship with God, Upright, not in themselves, but in the Upright Adam Ecc 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man[adam] upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Because of Christ therefore, those He died for are reconciled to God and Justice can never cannot and will not charge them with anything Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
So as long as Christ died for one, whether they are a believer or not[though they shall believe in due time], they are totally reconciled to God, God reconciled to them, and no charges can ever be laid to their account, not in this world or the world to come ! 12
Those Christ died for, unlike them He did not die for, are reconciled to God while even being enemies and unbelievers, because of Christ's death for them Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Now the unbelieving world religions do not believe this great blessing that attends the Death of Christ, however it is a True fact nevertheless and here's why.
Its because by the Death and Blood of Christ alone, Gods punitive Justice against their sins has been totally satisfied, and as a result of that, despite themselves, God is 100% reconciled to them, solely by the Death of Christ, and they are totally reconciled to God, no not in themselves, but in their Surety Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. Its just like all men in Adam before the fall were in a right relationship with God, Upright, not in themselves, but in the Upright Adam Ecc 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man[adam] upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Because of Christ therefore, those He died for are reconciled to God and Justice can never cannot and will not charge them with anything Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
So as long as Christ died for one, whether they are a believer or not[though they shall believe in due time], they are totally reconciled to God, God reconciled to them, and no charges can ever be laid to their account, not in this world or the world to come ! 12
Without the death and resurrection of Jesus, we would not be able to become Born Again, it’s our dead spirit that is reconciled back to God, when he makes us Born Of The Spirit , then we have the faith to believe in God, as faith comes from God, it’s a manifestation of the Spirit...our spirit comes alive,” Spirit gives birth to spirit...as Gods word says.....of course those who are carnal would think this foolishness....as Gods word is Spirit.....the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, that is a supernatural act that only God can do via his Spirit.....you never know when God will make you Born Again.
Without the Spirit making our spirit Born Again....then we are still dead and in sin.
If it’s his will, you will become Born Again......by his Living Spirit, all according to his purpose and plan.....a Born Again glorifies the Father and the Son....because they have the Living witness in their heart.who has taken up permanent residence in our heart, because we have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed that liveth and abideth forever.....
Without the Spirit making our spirit Born Again....then we are still dead and in sin.
If it’s his will, you will become Born Again......by his Living Spirit, all according to his purpose and plan.....a Born Again glorifies the Father and the Son....because they have the Living witness in their heart.who has taken up permanent residence in our heart, because we have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed that liveth and abideth forever.....
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Given all you have said there, you can never know IF God has "made you Born Again". You may think it. But you can never know for sure.
God says that being born again happens in baptism through faith in God, Read about being born again in Colossians 2:
Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses
Having been dead in trespasses and made alive together with God and having trespasses forgiven is being Born Again. That is what it means.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Baptism is not an indicator of being born again. It is the occasion, the time, in the sinners life when God forgives his sins and gives him the give of the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness of sins and receiving the gift of he Holy Spirit is being born again. That is what Colossians 2 says. That is in complete agreement with all the rest of the NT.
Also, there really isn't an "indicator" of being born again. Jesus said, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).
I would agree that such things as love, joy, peace, etc. are fruits of the Spirit. However, I have known some who display all those "fruits" and yet have rejected Christ. That was the case of a very close friend of mine. He is gone now and I so very much fear for him. He was raised a Jew and never accepted Jesus as savior. Such fruits of the Spirit are fruits indeed but are not good indicators of having been saved.
Those who have been Born Again knows 100% in their “ spirit “ that they have been Born Of The Spirit.....as it’s a supernatural rebirth, of course those who are carnal would/ could NEVER understand this.....A. Because they are void of Gods Spirit.B. they are still dead in spirit, therefore leading themselves through the word of God....
As we see here, only the Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children, it can’t be proved....just that the Born Again knows this in their spirit as we have the witness of the Holy Spirit, we have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed.....again the carnal mind could never understand what imperishable/ incorruptible seed means.
Those who aren’t Born Again wouldn’t understand this scripture.
Nothing can separate us from the Spirit of God, because he made our spirit Born Again....Spirit gives birth to spirit.....Gods word liveth and abideth forever in the heart/ spirit of his children.
The Biggest Honour we can receive to be a Born Again / the Living Spiritual rebirth...Mind Blowing!!....my testimony and belief......Praise God for His Precious Holy Spirit....who lives in our heart/ taken up residence....permanently.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As we see here, only the Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children, it can’t be proved....just that the Born Again knows this in their spirit as we have the witness of the Holy Spirit, we have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed.....again the carnal mind could never understand what imperishable/ incorruptible seed means.
Those who aren’t Born Again wouldn’t understand this scripture.
Nothing can separate us from the Spirit of God, because he made our spirit Born Again....Spirit gives birth to spirit.....Gods word liveth and abideth forever in the heart/ spirit of his children.
The Biggest Honour we can receive to be a Born Again / the Living Spiritual rebirth...Mind Blowing!!....my testimony and belief......Praise God for His Precious Holy Spirit....who lives in our heart/ taken up residence....permanently.
Romans 8
King James Version
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Sure, but he can do this any time. He doesn't need me to get into the water. Getting into the water is for ME not for him.
As I say, the fruits of the SPIRIT are indicators of being born again.
You raise a good and important issue. The fruits of the Spirit aren't the only indicators as you point out. Surety is found in the testing of our faith. Peter, James and Paul have written about the testing of our faith. God puts our faith to the test so that we might know that our faith is solid and that we will persevere.
I feel for you and your friend. All I can say is that God is good and he is merciful. You may see your friend again in the coming age. You never know. I hope you do.
If He can do it any time, then He can do it for anyone. But that is not what He says.
One who has been born again does indeed exhibit such fruits, but one who might exhibit such fruits may or may not be born again.
I am not sure what writings of Peter, James and Paul you are referring to. How solid, exactly, does ones faith have to be?
You could be right about my friend. But so far as I can see from Scripture, God does not save those who do not want it and do not ask for it.I feel for you and your friend. All I can say is that God is good and he is merciful. You may see your friend again in the coming age. You never know. I hope you do.
What don't I get?
If you think I don't get it, why can't you explain it so that anyone can understand it?
Why can't you give reasoned rebuttal to the texts I cited. After all, they are in the Bible, at least the Bible I have. You make it seem as if your Bible is void of the texts I cited.
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