The Gospel of Reconciliation
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Okay, but he doesn't say that God forgives at the occasion of Baptism either.
I understand that anyone can love, be patient etc. But Paul calls them "fruits of the Spirit" for a reason. Right?
Paul: Romans 5:3-5
Peter: 1 Peter 1:3-9
James: James 1:2-4
Agreed. I am sensitive to our times in that regard. During Jesus' time, God challenged the Jews to accept Jesus as his son. Some believed and others didn't believe and unbelief was a clear sign of one whom God will judge.
But today, things are different. Jewish exposure to the New Testament message is filtered through the Holocaust. Post WW2, it's a miracle when a Jewish person opens the NT to make contact with the real, actual Jesus. I don't think God will judge a Jewish person living today for rejecting the false "jesus" of the Holocaust. If you catch my drift.
The terms of salvation have always been the same, but today, rejecting a false Jesus is what we all should be doing. Yes?
Your comments, assertions have nothing to do with the texts you cite, which is only two, Rom 5:10, II Cor 5:18-19.
You don't seem to find any other texts that might support what you are asserting.
You show no understanding of the texts I cited since you have never addressed them.
If I am not getting your points, you should show just how I am missing them and continue to discuss your view with corroborative texts.
Yeah He does. He says so in several passages. He says so in Acts 2:38; 22:16; Romans 6:1-7Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:11-13 and elsewhere. I understand that He didn't use the word "occasion" specifically; however, what was said to be the results of baptism could not be interpretated to have occurred at any other time.
Yes, I agree that they are indeed fruits of the Spirit, however, the Spirit can and does work in the hearts of man even if when he is a sinner before he believes or even if he never believes. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit is to convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8). There certainly are many who know full well that they are sinning but just don't care; the same with righteousness and judgment. At least they don't talk or act like they care.
OK, but perhaps I don't see in those the extent of faith necessary for one to be saved.
I don't know who or what the false "Jesus" of the Holocaust is that you are referring to.
So explain it so I get it. I'll never understand if all you say, "your not getting it"'.
So, where are the texts that support what you assert.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you mean by "the extent of faith." Jesus said all that is required is a faith the size of a mustard seed. Peter says that the testing of our faith is more precious than gold. He is hinting at the assay process whereby metal, in this case gold, is tested to determine its ingredients and quality. The question is whether it is real gold and is it pure.
According to the Apostles, God tests our faith so that we might see whether or not our faith will persevere under trial. In the same way that genuine gold continues to remain during the assay process, durable faith will continue during trials of faith. And just as pure gold remains pure every time it is tested, durable faith will continue to endure every time it is put to the test.
What religion were the WW2 Germans?
That was my point. I do not think there is a level of faith below which or less than which is necessary for salvation. That is what sanctification is all about.
Could you give a reference for God's testing our faith. you are talking about?
Predominately Lutheran, I think.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The passages I referenced were concerned with a different but related subject. These Apostles weren't asking "what are the conditions of salvation?" They were asking, "How can I know that I am saved?"
The passages I referenced should be sufficient.
Let me focus on Peter's words because he uses explicit language about the testing of our faith. Paul and James are also talking about the testing of our faith.
1Peter 1:3-7 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
born again
Here, the Apostle narrows down the field, focusing solely on those who have been "born again." What follows is not inevitable for those who pretend to be born again, or pretend to be followers of Jesus.
an inheritance
Paul also speaks about our salvation in terms of an inheritance—something we own now but don't take possession of until later. All those who are born again will inherit salvation.
protected by the power of God
According to Peter, salvation is guaranteed by God for those who are born again.
proof of your faith
Those who are born again can greatly rejoice even under hardship and trial. And what is the source of their great joy and delight? They are happy because they didn't apostatize under pressure. The testing of their faith proved that their faith is durable -- more durable than Gold.
at the revelation of Jesus Christ
According to Peter, God guarantees that those born again will persevere in faith and be granted honor and glory at the appearance of Jesus Christ.
Peter is not suggesting that Christians can sit back and do nothing. Far from it, he is suggesting that some of us can rejoice because we didn't abandon our faith when circumstances pressured us to give up.
Right. So, the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust associate their suffering and death with Lutheranism, which isn't fair, but that's how it is. The people who allegedly believed in Jesus, The Germans (ostensibly Lutheran) were the same people who mistreated the Jewish people and sent them to the gas chambers.
Now, you and I know this isn't true. Lutherans are not antisemitic. Jesus followers are not antisemitic. The Jewish survivors got the wrong impression of Jesus from their WW2 experience. The "Jesus" associated with the Holocaust is not the Jesus of the New Testament. The "Jesus" of the Talmud is not the Jesus of the New Testament. In modern times, the Jewish people are right to reject the false "Jesus" associated with the Holocaust. They are right to reject the false "Jesus" described in the Talmud. They would not be right, however, to reject the Jesus of the New Testament.
Thank God that some Jewish people read the New Testament, come into contact with the real Jesus, and come to a saving faith.
Edit to add: My point earlier was this. God judges our hearts and I am confident that he would have mercy on any God-loving, God-fearing Jewish person living today, even in light of the fact that they reject the various "false" pictures of Jesus that exist out there. Such a person living today, with a good and honest heart, one who loves and fears God might accept Jesus as the Messiah if they were exposed to the real Jesus.
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You've made two comments basically and base them on the two texts Rom 5:10, II Cor 5:18-19. At issue is the fact that your comments don't align with the texts.
Which is why I have been asking you to corroborate your comments with texts that actually support your comments.
You don't seem to be able to do that.
I fully understand the texts and the context of the texts which I have given to you. You are unable to refute my explanation of those texts as well as several other texts which corroborate what I, scripture, and historical understanding has been saying now for 2000 years.
You're trying to find support for the idea of limited atonement.
Rom 5:10, and II Cor 5:18-19 do not support limited atonement. If you cannot show how scripture supports limited atonement then my suggestion to you is that it does not exist. After all, if it was a scriptural doctrine it would have existed from the beginning. The historical fact is that it does not exist until Calvin. That is 16 centuries after the fact. Such a doctrine denies the Christ of scripture in that He assumed our human nature and raised that nature to life. This is very clearly stated in Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:21-22, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-15, II Tim 1:10.
Instead of saying, "I don't understand your points" why not address these texts. Do they support limited atonement?
Where is limited atonement supported in scripture? Your two texts Rom 5:10 and II Cor 5:18-19 have been texts that support universal redemption, reconcilement from death from the beginning. You're two texts are refuted in the same chapter, Rom 5:6, Rom 5:18.
The death that spread to all men of Rom 5:12. Doesn't it seem logical that if death is common among all men, then if life is needed, that life would of necessity be given to all men, including the world, which also suffered death through Adam.
Limited atonement is an absolute impossibility based on the Incarnation of Christ. A doctrine from the beginning, one of the hallmarks of Christianity. This is a doctrine you do not understand and neither did Calvin. It might behoove you to study the doctrine of the Incarnation. A good source is Athanasius' book, "On the Incarnation".
You made assertions, then quoted two texts that have nothing to do with what you asserted. You cannot change the meaning of words in scripture to fit a particular theory. In this case you actually reversed the meaning of the texts. If you are going to support limited atonement, you need to find other texts. plain texts, not texts that you change the meaning of the words to make your assertions fit.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Shall be saved by His Life !
This promise is made of all for whom Christ died and reconciled to God by His death while they were enemies Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This scripture guarantees that these enemies Christ died for shall be saved by His Life ! They have been already reconciled to God, yet further blessing is promised. That they shall be saved by His[Christ] Life means that they shall be saved from being Gods enemy experientially, and that they shall believe the Truth, which is another aspect of salvation. We read of this here 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
In other words its an aspect of Salvation, a Saving, to be sanctified by the Spirit unto belief of the Truth. So in essence, those enemies in Rom 5:10 who were reconciled to God by Christ's death, its promised of them that they shall be saved by Christ's Life unto belief of the Truth. Christ's Life is His Spirit being given to them He substituted for as their Surety, thats why He is as the second or last adam made a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening[life giving] spirit. That is His Life referred to in Rom 5:10 that they shall be saved by !
And so we know this is not true of all mankind without exception, hence Christ did not die for all mankind without exception , unless we come to embrace the heresy of universalism and make the false claim that all mankind without exception shall be saved by Christs Life ! 12
This promise is made of all for whom Christ died and reconciled to God by His death while they were enemies Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This scripture guarantees that these enemies Christ died for shall be saved by His Life ! They have been already reconciled to God, yet further blessing is promised. That they shall be saved by His[Christ] Life means that they shall be saved from being Gods enemy experientially, and that they shall believe the Truth, which is another aspect of salvation. We read of this here 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
In other words its an aspect of Salvation, a Saving, to be sanctified by the Spirit unto belief of the Truth. So in essence, those enemies in Rom 5:10 who were reconciled to God by Christ's death, its promised of them that they shall be saved by Christ's Life unto belief of the Truth. Christ's Life is His Spirit being given to them He substituted for as their Surety, thats why He is as the second or last adam made a life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening[life giving] spirit. That is His Life referred to in Rom 5:10 that they shall be saved by !
And so we know this is not true of all mankind without exception, hence Christ did not die for all mankind without exception , unless we come to embrace the heresy of universalism and make the false claim that all mankind without exception shall be saved by Christs Life ! 12
Behold
Well-Known Member
TULIP : is a doctrine of devil's that was created by one.
He ruins people's minds by causing them to believe that Calvinism is Christianity.
Some of these deceived people speak about Calvin's lies as if this heretic wrote the NT.
Avoid.
OK, it seems brightfame52 has someone to assist him. Maybe you can help him find texts in scripture that support limited atonement. He seems unable to find any.You're right. He doesn't get it.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Who would say that John Calvin and the Gospel are the same. ?
A person whose mind is under the control of a devil named CALVINISM.
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