The Gospel of Reconciliation

[Rightglory]

@Rightglory



The human nature of a particular seed only, not all mankind Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The important vs are 14-15. You miss the whole reason that He can give aid to the seed of Abraham. Having a relationship with man is why man was created in the first place. That relationship was lost permanently by death. Death needed to be ended so that He (Christ) could give aid to those that believe.
Vs 14 "In as much then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him wh had the power of death, that is the devil. That flesh and blood is the same for every human being. Belivers don't have a different flesh and blood.

 

[Rightglory]

Romans 5:12 is not speaking of physical death. Physical death is not the result of sin. Physical death is an integral part of creation. There is nothing in this entire physical universe that is immortal, and certainly not man. That fact is obvious because God put the tree of life in the Garden to offset the natural event of physical death. So long as Adam and Eve were in the Garden, they had access to the fruit of that tree, thus preventing them from dying physically. Once they had sinned, that was no longer a good thing for man. Living forever in a condition of separation from the original close relationship with God was not good. God sent them out of the Garden to keep that from happening (Gen 3:22). Romans 5:12 is speaking about spiritual death. The wages of sin is not physical death but rather spiritual death.

Roman 5:12 is specifically speaking of physical death. It corresponds to Gen 3:19. Because of the sin of Adam, Adam died, suffered mortality, dust to dust. That is NOT spiritual death. This death spreads to all men through that mortal nature which all men share since.
There is a difference between Adam's sin and our sinning. Adam sinned from a position of neutrality, he was neither mortal nor immortal.
We sin because of our fallen nature, being mortal or dead. For us, I Cor 15:56, The sting of death is sin.
Christ did two things by His death and resurrection. The primary work was to defeat death. Secondly, He propitiated for sin with His Blood.
Christ's work by His death and resurrection had no direct effect upon any human being's relationship with God, that you are calling a spiritual life or relationship
The first is objective, man has nothing to do with it. The second part was to enable God to call all men to repentance so that man could again choose to have a relationship with Him in this life, but also to have it eternally. We enter that relationship by faith, regenerated through baptism and then work to live a faithfull life IN Him.

Also your interpretation of Romans 5:18 is wrong. It is not the same as 1 Corinthians 15:21-22. Romans 5:18 is speaking of the spiritual, while 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 is speaking of the physical.

In Romans 5:18, Paul says ", ...as one trespass led to condemnation for all men..." Clearly the condemnation is in reference to the spiritual. Most interpret that as original sin. That is, man comes into this world eternally condemned. If that was all that Paul said there, then indeed mankind would be condemned from birth and be eternally condemned forever. However, Paul didn't leave it there. In the last half of that same verse, Paul says "....one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." Now then just as the reference of condemnation due to Adam's trespass was in reference to all men, i.e., all mankind at birth, so also the reference of justification and life for all men due to Christ's righteousness was in reference to all men, i.e., all mankind at birth.

Vs 18 is explaining the universal fall of man. death came to all men through Adam's sin, one act. So, one act of righteousness life came to all men. This is physical death and physical life. I Cor 15:21-22 is the same equation. It is verified in I Cor 15:53-54 when all the dead shall be raised to immortality and incorruption.

 

[JBO]

According to the Bible, death is caused by Adam's sin.

Romans says

Paul teaching.

""""Wherefore, as by one man (1st Adam) sin entered into the world, and DEATH BY SIN.. = ; and so DEATH = passed upon all people""

Spiritual death spread to all people BECAUSE all sinned. Physical death is quite obviously (Genesis 3:22) a part of creation.

 

[JBO]

Roman 5:12 is specifically speaking of physical death. It corresponds to Gen 3:19. Because of the sin of Adam, Adam died, suffered mortality, dust to dust. That is NOT spiritual death.

Adam died spiritually because he sinned. Adam died physically because he no longer had access to the fruit of the Tree of Life.

This death spreads to all men through that mortal nature which all men share since.

That is true, but Adam didn't become mortal due to sin. He was mortal to begin with. He was kept alive, and could have been kept alive indefinitely, by eating the fruit of the Tree of Life.

If you think otherwise, then why was the Tree of Life there to begin with. What purpose would the Tree of Life serve to an immortal?

There is a difference between Adam's sin and our sinning. Adam sinned from a position of neutrality, he was neither mortal nor immortal.

By definition, one is either mortal or immortal. There is no such thing as neutrality with respect to physical death.

We sin because of our fallen nature, being mortal or dead. For us, I Cor 15:56, The sting of death is sin.

Our natures, like Adam, are fallen because we sin.

Christ did two things by His death and resurrection. The primary work was to defeat death. Secondly, He propitiated for sin with His Blood.

The first thing that was accomplished by Jesus obedience was the negating of any possible effect of Adam's sin on the rest of humanity. God does not and would not impute the sins of one onto another. That would be unjust and outright evil. The other thing that was accomplished by his obedience was to provide us a means of punishing for our sins except our being eternally condemned.

Christ's work by His death and resurrection had no direct effect upon any human being's relationship with God, that you are calling a spiritual life or relationship

Of course it did. How can you possible think that the effect of Adam's disobedience would affect the whole of mankind, but the effect of Jesus' obedience affect only a scant few? Paul says just the opposite: Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Vs 18 is explaining the universal fall of man. death came to all men through Adam's sin, one act. So, one act of righteousness life came to all men. This is physical death and physical life. I Cor 15:21-22 is the same equation. It is verified in I Cor 15:53-54 when all the dead shall be raised to immortality and incorruption.

Verse 18 is explaining what would have been the universal fall of man were it not for the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

And there is no resurrection to physical life when Jesus returns.

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[Behold]

Spiritual death spread to all people BECAUSE all sinned.

They buried Adam & Eve, and they are going to bury your or cremate you.
Have you decided which?

Read Hebrews 9:27 as its talking to you.

So, the reason you are going to die is because of the fall of Adam.

= Sin came upon all of "man" and death because of sin.

Had Adam not eaten that apple, then Adam would never have died, physically, nor would you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It starts out that way, however he emphasizes that we have that ability to be justified by faith because of the hope we now have.

No, you have cause and effect reversed. Confident expectation is based on a faith that has been tested and attested to be durable.

That hope is described in vs 6-21. It is speaking about the work the Incarnated Christ did for mankind. Without the world being reconciled there is no hope. There would be no eternity for mankind. Your faith would be meaningless.

False. The idea of a reconciled world is an empty concept. Perhaps you don't know that reconciliation is the restoration of amity between two former enemies. God doesn't forgive the world; he forgives me personally. He doesn't forgive the world; he forgives you personally. The Christian faith is an existential faith, which answer's the question, "How am I personally related to God's son Jesus Christ.

So you say but scripture says to the contrary. I Cor 15:12-22 is speaking explicitly about all the dead and Christ giving life to all those dead.

No, you are wrong.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Contrary to your supposition that all the dead will be made alive, according to Paul only those who are "in Christ" will be made alive to the exclusion of the rest of humanity. The phrase "in Christ" identifies those who belong to Christ.

Your explanation would make your view universalism on sterroids. If all men died as a result of the condemnation of death to Adam, then every human being would also be saved objectively.

Ridiculous. While all human beings are "in Adam", not all human beings are "in Christ."

every text I cited has to do with the Incarnation directly or gives an explanation of its consequence.

Every text you cited is being misconstrued and misapplied by you.

You may be correct regarding believers who are baptized are also said to be IN Christ. But that is a different context. I Cor 15:21-22 is not speaking about baptism nor believers even but mankind.

Yes it is.

No, it means the physical world. The universe that God created out of nothing. He redeemed it from destruction, death.

No, it doesn't. The term "world" comes from the Greek word "kosmos", which refers to any type of organized system.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So far, its the context that follows that you depart from.


This is what you are totally missing. You cannot have a Christ dying and being resurrection for only some human beings.

To be correct, this is what I am REJECTING. I reject your point of view that all human beings are reconciled to God because of the cross.

It is an absolute impossibility given the meaning of the incarnation of Christ.

I have no idea what you mean.

Until you understand the Incarnation you will never understand the texts that deal specifically with the Incarnation. We have gone over this before, Next you have vs 12 where death is described as effecting all men. All men became mortal through Adam's human nature. This is physical death dust to dust. Then in vs 18 he uses an equation, As death came to all men through Adam, so the one righteous act of one gave life to all men. A mortal nature to an immortal nature. How clear and Incarnational can one state it. This is repeated very explicitly again in I Cor 15:21-22, same equation. I am assuming you know what an equation is.
All the other texts I cited are either stating directly the result of the Incarnation, such as Heb 2:9 as does Heb 2:14-16. Or the more general as I John 4:14, John 4:42. The word World is literally the physical world. It cannot be more clear.

As I said before, if you are seeing the incarnation in any of these passages you brought it with you.

 

[Behold]

The idea of a reconciled world is an empty concept. Perhaps you don't know that reconciliation is the restoration of amity between two former enemies. God doesn't forgive the world;

John 3:16 is always considered wrong ,or false or an "empty concept" or a lie, by deceived Calvinists.

But God does not agree, as God is not a deceived Calvinist or a Fool. (CALVIN was a demonized fool).

Notice what God says.. and remember, that the "world" in the following verse... is the "human race", not the plants and insects and planets.

-
New International Version
For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation
“For this is how God loved the WORLD: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version
“For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Standard Bible
For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the WORLD that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

King James Bible
For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

New King James Version
For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

New American Standard Bible
“For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

NASB 1995
“For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

NASB 1977
“For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Legacy Standard Bible
“For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Amplified Bible
“For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the WORLD, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

The important vs are 14-15. You miss the whole reason that He can give aid to the seed of Abraham. Having a relationship with man is why man was created in the first place. That relationship was lost permanently by death. Death needed to be ended so that He (Christ) could give aid to those that believe.
Vs 14 "In as much then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him wh had the power of death, that is the devil. That flesh and blood is the same for every human being. Belivers don't have a different flesh and blood.

Sorry fellow, Vs 16 is very important in this case, it tells us that when He came in the flesh, it wasnt to identify with the entire human race as you falsely assert, but specifically to the Seed of Abraham, a segment of the human race.

Some translations capture it

ASV
For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

AMP
For, as we all know, He (Christ) does not take hold of [the fallen] angels [to give them a helping hand], but He does take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [extending to them His hand of deliverance].

EASY
It is clear that Jesus did not come to help the angels. He came to help people who are from Abraham's family.
EHV
For surely he was not concerned with helping angels but with helping Abraham’s offspring.

And Vs 17 confirms the same, He was made like unto His Brethren, not all mankind

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

All mankind isnt His brethren, this means Spiritual brethren Vs 12

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee

And the word reconciliation in Vs 17 is the word hilaskomai:

1. 1. to become propitious, be placated or appeased
   2. to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2. to expiate, make propitiation for

So the whole world in 1 Jn 2:2 whom Christ is the propitiation for, is the seed of Abraham out of all nations. They are basically the same greek word hilasmós

 

[JBO]

They buried Adam & Eve, and they are going to bury your or cremate you.
Have you decided which?

Assuming that Jesus does not return before I die, I know what I would prefer; but in reality, that will be up to those I leave behind.

Read Hebrews 9:27 as its talking to you.

And not to you?? Either way, that verse says nothing about dying because Adam disobeyed God.

So, the reason you are going to die is because of the fall of Adam.

= Sin came upon all of "man" and death because of sin.

God has declared through Paul, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 5:23) We know that is spiritual death not physical, because death is compared to eternal life, a spiritual life as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:44.

Had Adam not eaten that apple, then Adam would never have died, physically, nor would you.

What absolute garbage! Show me the biblical reference for that bit of nonsense. Where does God say anything about what would have happened if Adam had not eaten that fruit?

Seriously, you are so completely enthralled by Augustinian theology, that you fail to read and understand for yourself. We read that Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan and death. We know that it is not physical death that is destroyed since all die as you noted from Hebrews 9:27. But He has destroyed spiritual death for those who believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Received into His Favor !

Those sinners Christ died for, by His Death alone having been applied to their account, even while being enemies/unbelievers [by nature Eph 2:2-3], nevertheless they have been received into His Divine Favor, having been reconciled by His Sons Death for them Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Paul writing to believers states that when they were unbelievers/enemies they were [had been] reconciled to God, not by believing, but by the Death of Gods Son. Now that word reconciled is the greek word katallassó and one of its meanings is:

to return into favor with, be reconciled to, , to receive one into his favor.

This is what Christ's Death for them alone accomplished, it put those Christ, the Son of God, died for, it put them into Gods Favor, the Psalmist wrote Ps 30:5

For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Now how can sinners in a state of being unbelievers/enemies still be reconciled to God, and received into His Divine Favor ? Its because of what Christ's Death done before Gods Law and Justice ! 14

 

[CadyandZoe]

John 3:16 is always considered wrong ,or false or an "empty concept" or a lie, by deceived Calvinists.

Maybe this is true. I have no idea. But since you have responded to my post, I can only conclude that I misspoke or that you misunderstood me.

Here is what I said. "The idea of a reconciled world is an empty concept. Perhaps you don't know reconciliation is the restoration of amity between two former enemies."

To help clarify my point, I offer the quip I found in the San Jose Register Guard many years ago. "To love the world is no chore; the problem is the guy next door."

But God does not agree, as God is not a deceived Calvinist or a Fool. (CALVIN was a demonized fool).

Notice what God says.. and remember, that the "world" in the following verse... is the "human race", not the plants and insects and planets.

Ever wonder why John used the term "world" rather than the term "everyone"? According to your understanding, John could have written "For God so loved everyone that he gave his only begotten son . . ." But John didn't mean to say that God loved everyone. John didn't mean to say that he loved the entire human race.

We must understand John's use of the term "world" from within his gospel. In the opening chapter of John's gospel he writes, "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

not of blood . . .
From this we understand that John is speaking into an international debate concerning the qualifications of God's blessings. On one side of the issue, we have those who say that God is blessing those who are related by blood to Father Abraham, while on the other hand, we have others who argue that God is blessing all those who share the faith of Father Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile.

Here the Apostle John explicitly and unambiguously affirms that bloodline is not a qualification for the blessing of Abraham.

who were born . . .
John reminds his readers that while Jesus first came to his own people, they didn't receive him as a group, but some did. The essential quality that marked those who received him from those who didn't is that the receivers were born by the will of God.

As we can see, John is concerned about ethnic exclusiveness. For this reason, John's gospel is filled with hints, clues, and explicit statements about God's impartiality. Bloodline is not a qualification for the blessing of Abraham.

Consequently, we understand John 3:16 from that point of view. The question centers on the qualification for entrance into the kingdom of God. According to Jesus, one can not enter the kingdom of God unless he or she has been born again (or born from above). With regard to eligibility, The Lord places a condition on entrance into the kingdom. We must bear this in mind as we seek to understand John 3:16.

John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” ​

For God so loved . . .
What does Jesus mean by "loved" in this context? The Lord is not talking about God's emotional disposition toward the world. In the New Testament, the term "love" is an action verb indicating the type of beneficence granted to the beloved. God's love is always manifest in what he does. In this case, God loved the world by giving his only begotten.

the world . . .
Did God apply this beneficence to all of humanity as a group? But no, according to The Lord, being born from above is what makes one eligible to receive the kingdom of God. And the blessing of God's grace through the cross is granted exclusively to those who believe in his son. Belief in Jesus Christ is among the several conditions that mark those whom God has set aside to bless with eternal life. The Lord mentions a few more: 1) loves the light, and 2) practices the truth.

Reconciliation found in the cross is not universally available to all humanity but is restricted to those whom God chooses to bless with being born again. Jesus says that God loved "the world" to disabuse Nicodemus of his belief that one must be related by blood to Abraham in order to receive God's blessing. The kingdom of God will include people from all other family lines also.

 

[Rightglory]

Adam died spiritually because he sinned. Adam died physically because he no longer had access to the fruit of the Tree of Life.

You are correct that Adam died spiritually. His sin broke the relationship he was created to have with God. Sin is not organic, it does not transfer to another person. God even tells us in Ezekial that sin will not be given to another.
He was removed from the garden so that mortality will not be eternal.
The consequence of Adam's sin was physical death.
By the way your view is very analogous to Pelegius who believed that each person would need to sin before one became mortal. On the other hand Augustine in their debate believed that the guilt of Adam's sin was transferred. Both are heresies in historical Christianity.

That is true, but Adam didn't become mortal due to sin. He was mortal to begin with. He was kept alive, and could have been kept alive indefinitely, by eating the fruit of the Tree of Life.

So. you believe God created this universe, called it good. Then He created death so that it would be destroyed. Read Heb 2:14-15.
The Tree of Life, is immortality. It is why he was removed so that death would not become immortal.

If you think otherwise, then why was the Tree of Life there to begin with. What purpose would the Tree of Life serve to an immortal?

Why do you think Adam was also immortal? No one as yet has ever become immortal. That does not occur until the resurrection when our bodies and souls will be made immortal and incorruptible. I Cor 15: 53-54.
Do you really think that the word dead in that verse means spiritual death. So all will be raised to a spiritual relationship with Christ. In other words no one goes to hell.

By definition, one is either mortal or immortal. There is no such thing as neutrality with respect to physical death.

Adam was created neither. Why would God created Adam mortal, which means he had the propensity to die and die permanently at some point and not have an eternal existence?
Why do you think it was necessary for Christ to come. Why do you think a resurrection was necessary? If you think the sacrifice for sin, His blood is primary, then a resurrection is not necessary. Also, there will be no eternity. There is an eternity, an immortal existence, a new heaven and new earth BECAUSE Christ defeated death.

Our natures, like Adam, are fallen because we sin.

That is pure Pelagianism. You make each Human being his own Adam. We are not effected by Adam at all.

The first thing that was accomplished by Jesus obedience was the negating of any possible effect of Adam's sin on the rest of humanity. God does not and would not impute the sins of one onto another. That would be unjust and outright evil. The other thing that was accomplished by his obedience was to provide us a means of punishing for our sins except our being eternally condemned.

But your view negates that there will even be an eternity. If death is not defeated, then all that happens to you is death. The grave becomes permanent. Everything just continues to be dissolved back to dust to dust. By the way, how can dust to dust be a relational break?

And by the way, sin is still here. Christ did not negate sin in this world. Sin is negated for us at our death. That is why scripture says man will die once for the purpose of ridding our bodies of sin, namely being mortal. All men will be raised immortal and incorruptible I Cor 15:53-54.

Of course it did. How can you possible think that the effect of Adam's disobedience would affect the whole of mankind, but the effect of Jesus' obedience affect only a scant few? Paul says just the opposite: Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Verse 18 is explaining what would have been the universal fall of man were it not for the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

The fall of man which was universal and permanent, unless Christ, who took on our mortal nature through the birth of the Virgin Mary would die and arise again, thus defeating death. This is physical death to physical life - eternal life.

And there is no resurrection to physical life when Jesus returns.

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The Angel told the disciples that Jesus would come back just as you saw Him leave. We will have physical bodies that same that Jesus had and still has and will always have in heaven. Spiritual here does not mean relational here. Believers' bodies will also be glorified.
Why do you think there will be a resurrection of the dead?

 

[JBO]

You are correct that Adam died spiritually. His sin broke the relationship he was created to have with God. Sin is not organic, it does not transfer to another person. God even tells us in Ezekial that sin will not be given to another.

That is correct.

He was removed from the garden so that mortality will not be eternal.

And that is correct up to a point.

The consequence of Adam's sin was physical death.

That is not correct. The consequence of Adam's sin was spiritual death. The consequence of Adam's ejection from the Garden was physical death.

By the way your view is very analogous to Pelegius who believed that each person would need to sin before one became mortal. On the other hand Augustine in their debate believed that the guilt of Adam's sin was transferred. Both are heresies in historical Christianity.

So. you believe God created this universe, called it good. Then He created death so that it would be destroyed. Read Heb 2:14-15.

No, God didn't create death. Rather he didn't create physical immortality.

The Tree of Life, is immortality. It is why he was removed so that death would not become immortal.

No the tree of life was not immortality; rather it was simply a preventative of death which is not the same as immortality.

Why do you think Adam was also immortal? No one as yet has ever become immortal. That does not occur until the resurrection when our bodies and souls will be made immortal and incorruptible. I Cor 15: 53-54.

I do not think Adam was immortal. He wasn't. Even in the resurrection, our physical bodies do not become immortal, On our resurrection we will be resurrected with spiritual bodies. Even those are not inherently immortal. All, saved and lost alike, will be resurrected to spiritual bodies. The saved will go to heaven, the lost will suffer the second death (Rev 20:6)

Do you really think that the word dead in that verse means spiritual death. So all will be raised to a spiritual relationship with Christ. In other words no one goes to hell.

The lost will suffer the second death, which I take to be "hell".

Adam was created neither. Why would God created Adam mortal, which means he had the propensity to die and die permanently at some point and not have an eternal existence?

Adam was created mortal. Everything physical is mortal.

Why do you think it was necessary for Christ to come.

God, in His holiness, cannot allow sin to go unpunished, He must punish sin. Jesus came to provide a means for God to forgive the sins of the believer and to reconcile the believer. His death on the cross was a propitiation for our sins; the ransom paid to God for the believer. His death was the punishment for the sins of the world. It is available to all who believe (John 3:15-16)

Why do you think a resurrection was necessary?

Because all die (Heb 9:27)

If you think the sacrifice for sin, His blood is primary, then a resurrection is not necessary. Also, there will be no eternity. There is an eternity, an immortal existence, a new heaven and new earth BECAUSE Christ defeated death.

Because Christ defeated spiritual death. Christ didn't defeat physical death. All will die physically. And the physical will cease, i.e, the dust to dust (Gen 3:19; Wccl 12:7). In the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies, not physical bodies (1 Cor 13:44)

That is pure Pelagianism. You make each Human being his own Adam. We are not effected by Adam at all.

God made each human being his "own Adam" (Ezek 18). We would have been affected essentially had it not been for Jesus' obedience to the cross. The is the message of Romans 5:12-19 that so many fail to understand. The effect of Jesus' obedience set aside any effect of Adam's disobedience. Adam's disobedience would have effectively established original sin. But Jesus' obedience negated that.

But your view negates that there will even be an eternity. If death is not defeated, then all that happens to you is death. The grave becomes permanent. Everything just continues to be dissolved back to dust to dust.

That is the truth of the physical. It is only the spiritual that is eternal for those who believe. That is what salvation is all about.

By the way, how can dust to dust be a relational break?

It is physical. The physical ends, but the spirit prevails at least to judgment. At that time the spirit of the believer prevails, but the spirit of the disbeliever suffers the second death.

And by the way, sin is still here. Christ did not negate sin in this world. Sin is negated for us at our death. That is why scripture says man will die once for the purpose of ridding our bodies of sin, namely being mortal.

No, sin is never negated. Sin is forgiven. That is not the same. What is negated is the punishment for the sin for the believer, and that only because Jesus took on the punishment in our place. So even the punishment was not really negated; rather it was endured by Jesus.

 

[Rightglory]

No, you have cause and effect reversed. Confident expectation is based on a faith that has been tested and attested to be durable.


False. The idea of a reconciled world is an empty concept. Perhaps you don't know that reconciliation is the restoration of amity between two former enemies. God doesn't forgive the world; he forgives me personally. He doesn't forgive the world; he forgives you personally. The Christian faith is an existential faith, which answer's the question, "How am I personally related to God's son Jesus Christ.

Reconcile means to make right. You are correct, God does not forgive the world. He restores His creation back to its original intent, to be eternal.

No, you are wrong.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Contrary to your supposition that all the dead will be made alive, according to Paul only those who are "in Christ" will be made alive to the exclusion of the rest of humanity. The phrase "in Christ" identifies those who belong to Christ.

I was mistaken, You do not know what an equation is.

Ridiculous. While all human beings are "in Adam", not all human beings are "in Christ."

Every text you cited is being misconstrued and misapplied by you.

Yes it is.

No, it doesn't. The term "world" comes from the Greek word "kosmos", which refers to any type of organized system.

Your theology is not consistent. If I Cor 15:21-22 is limited to only those in Christ relationally, then they are the very same that also died through Adam. An equation is not one side unlimited, and the other side limited, Its an equation because they are equal. Context, Context, Context. You are also correct that World refers to an organized system, In this case the created universe. You need to reread Rom 8:20-22.
Now, if the rest of humanity is not made alive by Christ's resurrection, which is an impossibility, based on the Incarnation, then those that were not will simply be dissolved into dust permanently. There will be no hell for them. They die as animals. So, how does your theology answer for hell. The Bible states there is such a place, All men will be raised in the last day to stand in judgement Rev 20:11-13. How does your theology give life to these human beings so they can stand in judgement?

 

[Behold]

What absolute garbage! Show me the biblical reference for that bit of nonsense. ve.

I already did.

Here it is again.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[Behold]

Ever wonder why John used the term "world" rather than the term "everyone"?

Lets just keep this short..

So, "world" = everyone,

Notice this verse..

2 Corinthians 5:19

in Christ God was reconciling the WORLD to himself, not counting their trespasses against THEM.

Notice that "world" = "them". ???

That is EVERYONE..

So, when John 3:16 says "for God so loved the WORLD".. John is talking about everyone.

Now let me show you one more in JOHN...

This is the verse AFTER John 3:16

17 : For God did not send his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD, but to SAVE the WORLD = through Him".

,

 

[CadyandZoe]

Reconcile means to make right.

No. Reconcile is to make peace with an enemy.

You are correct, God does not forgive the world. He restores His creation back to its original intent, to be eternal.

But that is not what reconcile means.

I was mistaken, You do not know what an equation is.

I have no idea what you mean.

Your theology is not consistent. If I Cor 15:21-22 is limited to only those in Christ relationally, then they are the very same that also died through Adam.

No. The contrast is between those who are "in Adam" and those who are "in Christ." Every human being is "in Adam" but only the disciples of Christ are "in Christ."

An equation is not one side unlimited, and the other side limited,

That verse is not an equation; it's a contrast.

Its an equation because they are equal.

No, they are not equal.

You need to reread Rom 8:20-22.

Why? What information does that verse supply with regard to reconciliation?

Now, if the rest of humanity is not made alive by Christ's resurrection, which is an impossibility, based on the Incarnation, then those that were not will simply be dissolved into dust permanently.

Correct.

There will be no hell for them. They die as animals. So, how does your theology answer for hell. The Bible states there is such a place, All men will be raised in the last day to stand in judgement Rev 20:11-13.

Not all will be raised on the last day. Some will be raised earlier to be with the Lord.

 

[Rightglory]

That is correct.

And that is correct up to a point.

That is not correct. The consequence of Adam's sin was spiritual death. The consequence of Adam's ejection from the Garden was physical death.

Scripture disagrees with you. Gen 3:19 is speaking of physical death, not a loss of a relationship.

No, God didn't create death. Rather he didn't create physical immortality.

No the tree of life was not immortality; rather it was simply a preventative of death which is not the same as immortality.

I do not think Adam was immortal. He wasn't. Even in the resurrection, our physical bodies do not become immortal, On our resurrection we will be resurrected with spiritual bodies. Even those are not inherently immortal. All, saved and lost alike, will be resurrected to spiritual bodies. The saved will go to heaven, the lost will suffer the second death (Rev 20:6)

All human beings will become immortal and incorruptible by grace. I Cor 15:53-54. We will be resurrected with the bodies we had, they will come out of the graves. The same body as Jesus had and still has.

The lost will suffer the second death, which I take to be "hell".

Yes, that is what is called a spiritual death, permanent loss of any chance of a relationship with God.

Adam was created mortal. Everything physical is mortal.

Scripture says otherwise. A mortal being cannot die again to become what, more mortal? Dust to Dust is mortality. Everything dies because the world and mankind was subjected to death as a consequence of Adam's sin.

God, in His holiness, cannot allow sin to go unpunished, He must punish sin. Jesus came to provide a means for God to forgive the sins of the believer and to reconcile the believer. His death on the cross was a propitiation for our sins; the ransom paid to God for the believer. His death was the punishment for the sins of the world. It is available to all who believe (John 3:15-16)

This sounds a lot like the Satisfaction theory of Anselm. God's justice needed to be satisfied. You are correct that His death also was a propitiation for sin. It is a secondary part of His Work. The primary was to give to the world and mankind an eternal existence. A propitiation for sin only requires death. It does not require a resurrection. If that is all Christ did, we would all still die permanently with no eternal existence. This is what Paul was saying in I Cor 15:13-15, then repeats it vs 16-19. God did not just want a relationship with man in this life, but also for eternity. God created man to be in union with Him for an eternity. If Adam had not sinned, he would have attained immortality working with God.

Because all die (Heb 9:27)

Because Christ defeated spiritual death. Christ didn't defeat physical death. All will die physically. And the physical will cease, i.e, the dust to dust (Gen 3:19; Wccl 12:7). In the resurrection we will receive spiritual bodies, not physical bodies (1 Cor 13:44)

I need your explanation, or definition of spiritual death. Explain what kind of body Christ had at His resurrection? Was it spiritual or physical. At the resurrection we will all have the same body as Jesus had at His resurrection. His as believers will also be glorified.

God made each human being his "own Adam" (Ezek 18). We would have been affected essentially had it not been for Jesus' obedience to the cross. The is the message of Romans 5:12-19 that so many fail to understand. The effect of Jesus' obedience set aside any effect of Adam's disobedience. Adam's disobedience would have effectively established original sin. But Jesus' obedience negated that.

The ONLY purpose of Christ's obedience was to provide a perfect sacrifice for sin once. We would not need to continually kill animals for their blood. His obedience did not set aside Adam's disobedience. Christ's death overcame the consequence of Adam's sin, namely death. His resurrection give life to the world. He is called the Savior of the World for that reason, I John 4:14, John 4:42.

That is the truth of the physical. It is only the spiritual that is eternal for those who believe. That is what salvation is all about.

That contradicts scripture when it says all the dead will be raised and all will be immortal and incorruptibe. I Cor 15:53-54. So, however you believe spiritual means, those in hell will also have spiritual bodies. As to our human existence, there is no difference for those in heaven or hell.

It is physical. The physical ends, but the spirit prevails at least to judgment. At that time the spirit of the believer prevails, but the spirit of the disbeliever suffers the second death. See above statement. What does second death mean to you?

No, sin is never negated. Sin is forgiven. That is not the same. What is negated is the punishment for the sin for the believer, and that only because Jesus took on the punishment in our place. So even the punishment was not really negated; rather it was endured by Jesus.

The punishment was death to adam and to all of us through the consubstantial nature of our human natures. It was negated for the entire universe. The world and mankind suffered death, mortality. Rom 8:20-22-23.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Lets just keep this short..

So, "world" = everyone,

Notice this verse..

2 Corinthians 5:19

in Christ God was reconciling the WORLD to himself, not counting their trespasses against THEM.

Notice that "world" = "them". ???

That is EVERYONE..

So, when John 3:16 says "for God so loved the WORLD".. John is talking about everyone.

Now let me show you one more in JOHN...

This is the verse AFTER John 3:16

17 : For God did not send his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD, but to SAVE the WORLD = through Him".

,

According to verse 17, God sent his son into the world to save the world. Does that mean he will save everyone? I don't think so. There are conditions to be met.

Reconciliation is the act of reaching an understanding and ending hostility. In the context of the New Testament, the question is how to reconcile with God. For this to happen, both God and humanity need to take action to make peace with one another. According to Paul, God's offer is that anyone who believes in the gospel and accepts His son as Lord and Savior will be at peace with God.

However, since some people refuse to accept God's terms, they cannot be reconciled with Him. The Atonement is limited to those who agree to reconcile with God on his terms.