The Gospel of Reconciliation

[JBO]

I already did.

Here it is again.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

That says absolutely nothing about what would have happened had Adam not eaten an apple. What a blatant act of eisegesis.

And beside that, it doesn't saly that death passed upon all men because Adam sinned. It says death passes upon all men because all sinned. Moreover, we know from the Genesis account that the death spoken about there Romans 5:12 is speaking of spiritual death, not physical death.

 

[Rightglory]

To be correct, this is what I am REJECTING. I reject your point of view that all human beings are reconciled to God because of the cross.

So you do, But it is also a direct rejection of what scripture states. Christ reconciled all things. Col 1:19-20 Mankind the universe.

I have no idea what you mean.

As I said before, if you are seeing the incarnation in any of these passages you brought it with you.

You are correct that I brought this view because it has been the view of Christians from the beginning. The Apostles taught the early Church and we have the NT from their writings. Men as early as Iraneous espoused this view, Tatian, Theophilus, Athananius wrote a book explaining it as I have done here. Then we have several Church Councils that held this view in declaring several other views as hereses.
You are certainly entitled to believe as you will, But what you have stated has never been the scriptural understanding of the texts I cited from the very beginning.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So you do, But it is also a direct rejection of what scripture states.

We disagree on that point. The term "world" does not necessarily mean "everyone" as you suggest.

Christ reconciled all things. Col 1:19-20 Mankind the universe.

Your translation is incorrect. Things are not reconciled. Only people are reconciled.

 

[Behold]

According to verse 17, God sent his son into the world to save the world.

So, "world" = everyone,

Notice this verse..

2 Corinthians 5:19 = """"in Christ = God was reconciling the WORLD to himself, not counting their trespasses against THEM.""

Notice that "world" = "them". ???
That is EVERYONE..

So, when John 3:16 says "for God so loved the WORLD".. John is talking about everyone.

Now let me show you one more in JOHN...
3:
17 : For God did not send his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD, but to SAVE the WORLD = through Him".

Now look again at this verse.

2 Corinthians 5:19 = in Christ God was reconciling the WORLD to himself, not counting their trespasses against THEM.

Do you understand yet that "World = THEM"...

That's the people.

"For God so loved the WORLD (of people)..."

See it?

 

[Behold]

That says absolutely nothing about what would have happened had Adam not eaten an apple.

It says this.

Sin and death entered into the World ( all of humanity) by ADAM

The reason that Adam DIED is because He sinned.

The reason you will die, is the same reason.......

Adam's FALL, caused the Fall of us all, and that Fall ends up in the DEATH of your Body.. same as everyone else.

 

[Rightglory]

No. Reconcile is to make peace with an enemy.

That is an example of reconciliation. To make the relationship right between whatever is being corrected. You reconcile your checkbook with a bank statement. It means to make it right. Justification, righteousness all have the same meaning as well, to make right.

But that is not what reconcile means.

See above. It means to make right, correct,

I have no idea what you mean.

No. The contrast is between those who are "in Adam" and those who are "in Christ." Every human being is "in Adam" but only the disciples of Christ are "in Christ."
That verse is not an equation; it's a contrast.

If you want to use contrast, OK, but you need to use the same antecedent which is dead human beings. Paul is speaking about the dead being raised from vs 12-19. He makes a point to double state that if the dead are not raised, then Christ is not risen. If Christ is risen, then all the dead will be raised. Then you have his summation. The context is not speaking about baptism, or believers being IN Christ. It is an equation. if you will an equal contrast.

No, they are not equal.

scripture says they are.

Why? What information does that verse supply with regard to reconciliation?

Because it states that the created world was subjected to death as was mankind specifically. Thus Christ needed to reconcile the world as well as mankind.

Correct.

So, you believe that hell does not exist. That there will be no resurrection of unblievers. There is no judgement of the wicked. They just die and return to dust permanently, nonexistence.

Not all will be raised on the last day. Some will be raised earlier to be with the Lord.

There is ONLY one physical resurrection. That resurrection will occur when Christ comes again in the last day. We all will be raised immortal and incorruptible and all will stand in judgement for what they did in their lifetimes. Christ will separate the goats from the sheep, it will be hell or heaven respectively.

 

[Rightglory]

Sorry fellow, Vs 16 is very important in this case, it tells us that when He came in the flesh, it wasnt to identify with the entire human race as you falsely assert, but specifically to the Seed of Abraham, a segment of the human race.

Never stated it was not important, but it the reason Christ came to defeat death. You're bypassing the primary work of Christ. He assumed our human nature, that is flesh and blood. Every human being has the same flesh and blood. He defeated Satan who has the power over death. Once He accomplished that He can deal with those human beings that answer His call to repentance. The seed of Abraham is spiritual. Abraham's faith is an example for our faith.
The rest of your comments were not relevant to the topic.

So the whole world in 1 Jn 2:2 whom Christ is the propitiation for, is the seed of Abraham out of all nations. They are basically the same greek word hilasmós

I John 2:2 does not say that. Why do you continually either change meaning of words or just ignore them so they fit your theory.
The contrast is not just for believers but for all others in the world.

 

[Rightglory]

We disagree on that point. The term "world" does not necessarily mean "everyone" as you suggest.

In this context it not only means all mankind, but everything in the world. There was nothing exempt from His reconciliation. Col 1:20

Your translation is incorrect. Things are not reconciled. Only people are reconciled.

Everything that is made correct. One can reconcile an argument, we also use the word justify in the same context. You can justify your check book against your bank statement, You can also justify an argument

 

[brightfame52]

Never stated it was not important, but it the reason Christ came to defeat death. You're bypassing the primary work of Christ. He assumed our human nature, that is flesh and blood. Every human being has the same flesh and blood. He defeated Satan who has the power over death. Once He accomplished that He can deal with those human beings that answer His call to repentance. The seed of Abraham is spiritual. Abraham's faith is an example for our faith.
The rest of your comments were not relevant to the topic.

I John 2:2 does not say that. Why do you continually either change meaning of words or just ignore them so they fit your theory.
The contrast is not just for believers but for all others in the world.

So Christ came specifically to die for a specific people, He specifically identified with them in the flesh, not all mankind Heb 2:16

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

[Behold]

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels;

Jesus was a HUMAN, and not an Angel.

Jesus's Humanity was not "angelic".

It was 2nd ADAM

but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

""""For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.""""

So, this "Abraham" verse can be taught like this, Reader, in case you need a sermon or a SS Lesson.

1.) Jesus came to the House of Israel........ and So the Hebrew writer is speaking about it.

2.) The Apostle Paul teaches that "Abraham is the Father of our FAITH"... so, that makes Abraham the father of all believers..,"seed wise"... So, in this Case, Jesus is the seed of God, and the seed of the word brings regeneration as "born again, and so, those are also the SEED of Abraham.

 

[Rightglory]

So Christ came specifically to die for a specific people, He specifically identified with them in the flesh, not all mankind Heb 2:16

He died to have specific people. People that will believe on Him. However to even have ONE believer He needed to die for all men.

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

This is reason He reconciled the world. He created this world to be eternal as well as mankind. When Adam sinned, death came to all men, including the world. Everything would be dissolved by death,dust to dust. No eternity,
Your theology makes Christ meaningless. He accomolished nothing. You believe He only will raise some men in the last day. Paul states that makes your faith meaningless, in vain, worthless, Visit I Cor 15:12-19. You have a theology that leaves Christ in the grave.
Very clear and succinct, If all men are not raised, then Christ is not risen. I would need to assume you will not be celebrating Easter this coming Sunday.

 

[JBO]

It says this.

Sin and death entered into the World ( all of humanity) by ADAM

The reason that Adam DIED is because He sinned.

The reason you will die, is the same reason.......

Adam's FALL, caused the Fall of us all, and that Fall ends up in the DEATH of your Body.. same as everyone else.

Totally wrong. Everything there is wrong. Think about it just for a bit. What kind of God would do what you are saying He has done by holding the world accountable for what Adam did? Neither a just nor a gracious god would do such a thing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In this context it not only means all mankind, but everything in the world. There was nothing exempt from His reconciliation. Col 1:20

You are confusing reconciliation with restoration. Colossians 1:20 speaks about reconciliation, not restoration. Only people can be reconciled to each other or to God.

Colossians 1:18-20 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

the church . . .
Paul focuses on "the church," "the body," of Christ, which is the subject of this paragraph. The subject matter informs our understanding of this paragraph.

the fulness . . .
In Greek, the word for "fulness" is pleroma, a term Paul the Apostle uses to indicate "every believer, both Jew and Gentile, who ever existed throughout time." Not only are Peter, Paul, and John members of the church, the fulness, so are David, Abraham, Enoch and other believers who existed in ancient times.

in him . . .
Paul uses this term to indicate the profound connection between Jesus and those in his kingdom of light -- the pleroma. They all share a unity of purpose, knowledge and character with Jesus. To be "in him" or "in Christ" is a beautiful expression of devotion and shared understanding.

reconcile all things . . .
The phrase "ta panta" in Greek is commonly translated as "all things," but this translation can be misleading. The word for "all" is in plural and neuter form, which refers to "all the members of the fullness" in the context of the church. Human beings are naturally at odds with God, but those who are "in Christ" are no longer enemies of God. They have made peace with God and no longer oppose Him. Instead, they worship, devote themselves, and serve God.

Everything that is made correct. One can reconcile an argument, we also use the word justify in the same context. You can justify your check book against your bank statement, You can also justify an argument

To "reconcile" a check book is to bring the checkbook record into agreement with the bank record. But the New Testament usage is focused on the enmity between God and man -- not checkbooks.

 

[JBO]

This is reason He reconciled the world. He created this world to be eternal as well as mankind. When Adam sinned, death came to all men, including the world. Everything would be dissolved by death,dust to dust. No eternity,

If God created this world, that is the entire universe including man, to be eternal then that is exactly how it would have been. That is not the case. God was not blindsided by Adam's disobedience. Adam's disobedience was not caused by God, but it was in God's plan from the very beginning. Adam's sin changed nothing but Adam's relationship with God. It was never God's plan that Adam would not sin.

If you really believe that God created this world to be eternal as well as mankind, then you have to ask why God put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden in the first place. God could easily have created a world in which no sin could ever occur; but He didn't.

 

[Behold]

Totally wrong. Everything there is wrong. Think about it just for a bit. What kind of God would do what you are saying He has done by holding the world accountable for what Adam did?

Adam's sin became the fall of us all.

God later gave the Law and commandments so that we understand WHEN we are sinning.

A person KNOWS they are sinning, because of all the "tho shalt not's" that ZING your conscious as an unbeliever.

Then, the consequences of that sin,.. the harvest of the evil deeds, return to you as "sowing and reaping"..

However none of that is why a person goes to Hell., as none of that brings damnation..

What does?

John 3:36

 

[Rightglory]

You are confusing reconciliation with restoration. Colossians 1:20 speaks about reconciliation, not restoration. Only people can be reconciled to each other or to God.

Colossians 1:18-20 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

the church . . .
Paul focuses on "the church," "the body," of Christ, which is the subject of this paragraph. The subject matter informs our understanding of this paragraph.

the fulness . . .
In Greek, the word for "fulness" is pleroma, a term Paul the Apostle uses to indicate "every believer, both Jew and Gentile, who ever existed throughout time." Not only are Peter, Paul, and John members of the church, the fulness, so are David, Abraham, Enoch and other believers who existed in ancient times.

in him . . .
Paul uses this term to indicate the profound connection between Jesus and those in his kingdom of light -- the pleroma. They all share a unity of purpose, knowledge and character with Jesus. To be "in him" or "in Christ" is a beautiful expression of devotion and shared understanding.

reconcile all things . . .
The phrase "ta panta" in Greek is commonly translated as "all things," but this translation can be misleading. The word for "all" is in plural and neuter form, which refers to "all the members of the fullness" in the context of the church. Human beings are naturally at odds with God, but those who are "in Christ" are no longer enemies of God. They have made peace with God and no longer oppose Him. Instead, they worship, devote themselves, and serve God.


To "reconcile" a check book is to bring the checkbook record into agreement with the bank record. But the New Testament usage is focused on the enmity between God and man -- not checkbooks.

You can make that claim all day but it will not change what scripture means now and what it meant for Christians in the early centuries.
Do you think Paul got his Greek incorrect. The Church spoke exclusive Greek for 5 centuries. I think they knew the language.
You still are confusing the reason Christ came, to have a Church, with what Christ needed to do in order to have a Church. Death needed to be defeated before any relationship with Christ would be meaningful and extend to an eternity.

 

[JBO]

Adam's sin became the fall of us all.

You honestly believe that God did that to you? Shame, shame.

 

[Rightglory]

If God created this world, that is the entire universe including man, to be eternal then that is exactly how it would have been. That is not the case. God was not blindsided by Adam's disobedience. Adam's disobedience was not caused by God, but it was in God's plan from the very beginning. Adam's sin changed nothing but Adam's relationship with God. It was never God's plan that Adam would not sin.

God created man as an independent, rational, and free individual. God did not create a robot to be manipulated. What kind of relationship would that be. Yes, God knew Adam would sin using his free will. But God also had a plan. It was actually merciful of God to permit Satan to have dominion over this earth. That death, mortality would come through the flesh, or nature of man. Which is why God could tell Adam of a redeemer in the future in Gen 3:16. And what happened, Christ came, assumed that human nature of man, so that through that nature Christ could defeat death, mortality by dying and being resurrected.
God did not either abolish sin in this life, nor give us eternal existence while on this earth. That was for the future still. God uses sin to test believer's faith. There is a war going on over your soul. Satan wants you so does Christ. You, as any believer, need to choose life or death, same as Adam. You decide to have a relationship with God or not to have one. Which is why there will be a judgement where every man will give an account. God is just in that every human being had a choice and will be judged accordingly. Same test Adam had, life or death.

If you really believe that God created this world to be eternal as well as mankind, then you have to ask why God put the Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden in the first place. God could easily have created a world in which no sin could ever occur; but He didn't.

But there would not have been a test to see if man, of his own free will, would choose to be in a relationship with God. Real love is not forced or manipulated love.

 

[Behold]

You honestly believe that God did that to you? Shame, shame.

Blaming God for what Adam did?

Blaming God for what you choose to do?

Guess again, @JBO

 

[JBO]

God created man as an independent, rational, and free individual. God did not create a robot to be manipulated. What kind of relationship would that be. Yes, God knew Adam would sin using his free will. But God also had a plan. It was actually merciful of God to permit Satan to have dominion over this earth. That death, mortality would come through the flesh, or nature of man. Which is why God could tell Adam of a redeemer in the future in Gen 3:16. And what happened, Christ came, assumed that human nature of man, so that through that nature Christ could defeat death, mortality by dying and being resurrected.
God did not either abolish sin in this life, not give us eternal existence while on this earth. That was for the future still. God uses sin to test believer's faith. There is a war going on over your soul. Satan wants you so does Christ. You, as any believer, need to choose life or death, same as Adam. To have a relationship with God and or not to have one. Which is why there will be a judgement where every man will give an account. God is just in that every human being had a choice and will be judged accordingly. Same test Adam had, life or death.

But there would not have been a test to see if man, of his own free will, would choose to be in a relationship with God. Real love is not forced or manipulated love.

I am happy to see that you agree with me.