TULIP an open discussion

[Wrangler]

What do you mean that you, yourself essentially chose God and caused your rebirth on your own terms of your own will? Is that how the process of salvation works, given from God? Does he somehow toss this gift over the fence or place this gift in the mailbox as something to sign up for, at your convenience and timing?

Yup. That’s 100% what I mean - putting aside all your snarky commentary.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65 NASB).

Yes, Jesus said that. Coming to Jesus is not the same as accepting him as your Lord and Savior.

Do you hold that everyone who comes to Jesus is saved and re-born and no one is a type of Nicodemus?

 

[APAK]

Yup. That’s 100% what I mean - putting aside all your snarky commentary.

Not meant to be taken that way. Used for emphasis for any one reading it. Not targeted at you intentionally.

And what do you mean?

 

[APAK]

Yes, Jesus said that. Coming to Jesus is not the same as accepting him as your Lord and Savior.

Do you hold that everyone who comes to Jesus is saved and re-born and no one is a type of Nicodemus?

How can I possibly answer these two questions?' 'Who comes to Jesus' what exactly does that mean, without me entertaining you with more ideas that you may think are targeted at you.

 

[marks]

Not meant to be taken that way. Used for emphasis for any one reading it. Not targeted at you intentionally.

Ha! Good luck selling that one! Snarky is a good word for it. Demeaning. Ridicule. Instead of honest and healthy discussion.

 

[setst777]

Yes, Jesus said that. Coming to Jesus is not the same as accepting him as your Lord and Savior.

Do you hold that everyone who comes to Jesus is saved and re-born and no one is a type of Nicodemus?

The word "come" is a term Lord Jesus frequently uses in his teaching to the people, and means that, those believing in him will come to him, and those who do not believe in him will not come to him to be saved (Matthew 11:28; Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Mark 10:21; Luke 6:47; Luke 9:23; Luke 14:26; Luke 18:22; John 5:38-40; John 6:35; John 6:44-45; John 7:37; John 14:6)

According to the Scriptures, the ones the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son (John 6:37).

Lord Jesus explains that it is the Father's will to give to the Son all those who believe in the Son (John 6:34-40).

No one will believe in Lord Jesus accept they hear about Lord Jesus through the Gospel message and call to salvation; however, not everyone the God teaches by His Word will listen and learn from the God, because they resist.

Romans 10:17-21 (WEB) states: 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly, “Their sound went out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” [Psalm 19:4]

19 But I ask, didn’t Israel know? First Moses says,

“I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation. I will make you angry with a nation void of understanding.” [Deuteronomy 32:21]

20 Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who didn’t seek me. I was revealed to those who didn’t ask for me.” [Isaiah 65:1] 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB)
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, of whom you have now become betrayers and murderers. 53 You received the law as it was ordained by angels, and didn’t keep it!” 54 Now when they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, [the work of the Word and Spirit] and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears, [refused to listen, although they heard him] then rushed at him with one accord.

Jeremiah 32:33 They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though "I taught them," teaching again and again, they would not "listen" and "receive instruction."

 

[APAK]

Ha! Good luck selling that one! Snarky is a good word for it. Demeaning. Ridicule. Instead of honest and healthy discussion.

Actually I would not get too carried away with adding to your mocking chorus line marks. It was actually true in what I said, and I meant it in truth and honesty as you claim it was not.

It was to all to read it, including you and W. and others to mediate on, in what they or you or others might imagine of the rebirth to new life. Of what it is and is not.....

This holy rebirth marriage is where God already presides to give us away to his Son. And I will continue to use such ridiculous analogies in the future as long as some minds see this as a mere human act of conversion.

You can add this to my collection of snarky remarks. I think it is a good one don't you think?

 

[Wrangler]

what do you mean?

I mean EXACTLY what you said - minus the snarkiness.

Yes, Jesus said that. Coming to Jesus is not the same as accepting him as your Lord and Savior.

Do you hold that everyone who comes to Jesus is saved and re-born and no one is a type of Nicodemus?

How can I possibly answer these two questions?'

Yes or no is how you answer it. Jettison your snarkiness and you got yourself an answer.

 

[marks]

Actually I would not get too carried away with adding to your mocking chorus line marks. It was actually true in what I said, and I meant it in truth and honesty as you claim it was not.

It was to all to read it, including you and W. and others to mediate on, in what they or you or others might imagine of the rebirth to new life. Of what it is and is not.....

This holy rebirth marriage is where God already presides to give us away to his Son. And I will continue to use such ridiculous analogies in the future as long as some minds see this as a mere human act of conversion.

You can add this to my collection of snarky remarks. I think it is a good one don't you think?

Remember that I've read a great many of your posts, and I know how you address others.

I'm not at all surprised by you, even now. It seems to me that you think plausible deniability is license to demean others and their points of view. Any time before I address you, I ask myself, do I really want to? There are a great many unpleasant people in this world, and, well, all things in moderation, maybe especially that.

I truly desire the best for you, I hope you can see yourself with a fresh look.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Ha! Good luck selling that one! Snarky is a good word for it. Demeaning. Ridicule. Instead of honest and healthy discussion.

Remember that I've read a great many of your posts, and I know how you address others.

I'm not at all surprised by you, even now. It seems to me that you think plausible deniability is license to demean others and their points of view. Any time before I address you, I ask myself, do I really want to?

Wow. Powerful testimony. I've noticed an uptick lately of this snarkiness, correlated with his pretension of being a 1st class Christian. To wit:

And my personal testimony agrees with the Spirit of God's action in and for my rebirth ...

Not too much humility there. A person who truly had the Spirit of God would be humble enough to allow others to judge for themselves his personal testimony. When one feels the need to pontificate their own righteousness, it certainly is the foundation to demean and ridicule others.

@APAK, I love you as a brother in Christ. Marks and I have both recognized this snarkiness in you. I pray you read Matthew 18:15-17 and Galations 5:22 and consider our words.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All of TULIP is founded on the Calvinist doctrine of the Sovereignty of God, of which all forms of orthodox Calvinism define as theological determinism, which means that:

Every event in the world, whether "First-Cause," "other causes," and "immediate causes," they are all planned and determined by God, including mankind's choices, whether good or bad, from before the foundation of the world - all of which fulfills God's predetermined plans. The Westminster Confession of Faith agrees. In fact, the Calvinist defines God's "foreknowledge" as "for-CAUSES."

Although mankind perceives that all the choices they make are their own, by their own free will, God is the one who causes all humans to choose the way they do to fulfill his plan and design for each of them, and has created each person, and 1/3 of the angels, for eternal torment, and has determined to save some of mankind. The choices each person makes in life is, therefore, 100% God's work, and 0% man's work, because mankind has no real free-will.

Therefore, although Calvinism will not admit it, every sin that every person ever commits are 100% God's work and 0% man's work.

WHY?

The reasons were explained in their own doctrine; in that, God, who is Sovereign, does not act on what he foresaw, but on what he for-CAUSES.

The end result of all this, is that God created most people to hate and send to eternal torment for the sins that God is 100% responsible for. Every person is but a victim of God, which includes: Esau, Judas Iscariot, etc.

What that actually means is that the total depravity of mankind was predetermined and caused by God, who designs and works though all other causes to bring about His plan - for nothing happens that God does not for-CAUSE.

Although Calvinism will not admit it, what their definition of God's Sovereignty boils down to is that God is the only one responsible for the choices mankind makes, which means that God is 100% responsible for all the sins mankind has committed throughout human history.

Truly, Calvinism and Reformist are abhorrent doctrines that have no place in Christianity.

which means that God is 100% responsible for all the sins mankind has committed throughout human history.

I don't see this as a problem for the reason that Paul the Apostle explained.

 

[APAK]

Remember that I've read a great many of your posts, and I know how you address others.

I'm not at all surprised by you, even now. It seems to me that you think plausible deniability is license to demean others and their points of view. Any time before I address you, I ask myself, do I really want to? There are a great many unpleasant people in this world, and, well, all things in moderation, maybe especially that.

I truly desire the best for you, I hope you can see yourself with a fresh look.

Much love!

The truth of it marks is that you must admit sometimes you come across to me as with some others, as a very sensitive natured person as if someone has just picked on you for some unjust reason. And it really is not the case at all.

That's my take, pure and simple. You are easy to read mate, so don't fool yourself into thinking I way off target here. I shoot straight...

And now you bring in plausible deniability...what a joke.. I never saw that one coming...

I will not cater to your fragilities and especially shown when I observe at times much hesitation in your works. We are both adults and I expect you to carrying on the same way knowing as you might say you know something about me. I will not cater to whining and hesitation in your words as if to gain some type of public sympathy. So now you might know why I will not alter my course with you to accommodate marks.

It would prove beneficial for both of us if you came out with what you really intent to say, clearly and with disguise. Might improve your view and relations with me don't you think? I might respect you for it more. Could be a challenge for you.

 

[APAK]

Wow. Powerful testimony. I've noticed an uptick lately of this snarkiness, correlated with his pretension of being a 1st class Christian. To wit:



Not too much humility there. A person who truly had the Spirit of God would be humble enough to allow others to judge for themselves his personal testimony. When one feels the need to pontificate their own righteousness, it certainly is the foundation to demean and ridicule others.

@APAK, I love you as a brother in Christ. Marks and I have both recognized this snarkiness in you. I pray you read Matthew 18:15-17 and Galations 5:22 and consider our words.

The petty gossipers and whiners are out in force I see...and for good reason I also see...they do not like it when faced with the truth of this subject that they apparently reject, or makes them unsettled, and now they rebel.

I read only empty words here W.

You and marks need to get a grip and understand the seriousness of this topic at hand and not focusing on me as your outlet and punching bag of what I sense is insecurity of your part. Even though you both disagree with me and some other views on this topic, please do not now continue to degenerate into playing school boy antics and name calling. It is quite visible.

 

[setst777]

which means that God is 100% responsible for all the sins mankind has committed throughout human history.

I don't see this as a problem for the reason that Paul the Apostle explained.

If you want to understand what Paul actually explained, then you have to read His Epistles from start to finish, just as you would read any letter or book; because taking quotes from one place in a letter, or another place, out of their context, and then supplying your own opinion as to what you feel he was saying, is not going to give you the message that Paul explained, but what you want to believe Paul was explaining.

For you to say that you do not see a problem with God being 100% responsible for all the sins mankind has committed throughout human history show me that your own doctrine is so important to you, that you gladly will label God as the only vial sinner, and that He creates and uses his creation as victims of all the evil he creates. Sorry, that is not the God of the Bible.

 

[Wrangler]

the seriousness of this topic at hand and not focusing on me

I take it you deny Matthew 18:15-17 and Galations 5:22 are serious words. I've said my peace and shake your dust from my feet.

 

[Behold]

Behold, i Love you Brother, from my heart..I am now going to exit this thread as I believe the Lord is leading me to do so...keep up the good work..xxx

I Love you also, Sister RitaJanice

and thank you for the kind words.

 

[Behold]

'Who comes to Jesus' what exactly does that mean,

We come to Jesus like this..

"whosoever believeth in HIM".. John 3:16

Jesus said.>"All that Believe in Me, i give unto you, eternal life and you shall never go to Hell (perish).."""

How do we GO to Him that God accepts?
What is the CAUSE?

1.) Jesus Said..... "If I be LIFTED UP (on the Cross) I will draw ALL people to me"..

A.) See that "Draw".... "All"..

Who does that?

AA.) The Holy Spirit

How?

AAA.) Faith comes........>BY HEARING"...


AAAA.) Hearing what? = The Holy Spirit who opens your heart and mind when you are realizing JESUS.

See that "realizing"?

That is the "call of God" .. that is the "conviction of the Holy Spirit" = WHO is "DRAWING ALL people to Christ"... all the time.

However...NOT ALL will come... = Freewill


And...When does this happen?

ALL THE TIME, as Jesus said........"I will DRAW ALL"...........

And that Drawing is to "hear it"..........inside your mind........ that opens your heart to receive Christ.

When does this happen, most of the time?

A.) """""How can they BELIEVE unless they Hear... and How can they HEAR unless the Gospel is preached, is taught, is given"...""""""

"Faith comes BY.. HEARING"... The Gospel.......in some way.

Might be a Jesus Movie.
Might be during an LSD Trip... (Ask Phil Keaggy about it).

Might be during an "alter Call" = Sunday Morning Church Service.

Maybe you are in a prison cell, and your mother gave you a BIBLE for Christmas and told you....."Read John 3:16... its for you"..

It could happen on one of my Posts I wrote today, as i gave unbelievers a chance to BELIEVE In Jesus on 2 or 3 so far today.


So, How does Calvin spit on all that?

Oh, He's a clever Devil.

See, He leaves in Jesus, and Faith, and the Cross, but he butchers God's Salvation, into CALVINISM.

He "LIMITS the Cross" by saying its not offered for/to EVERYONE,...... which denies John 3:16.. and 2 Corinthians 5:9 and John 3:17

He refuses "free will"

He teaches that you can't hear the Gospel and believe it because you are "total depravity" so God has to make you believe it.

And on and on This Devil just keeps confusing the word of God so that He traps them into HIS Demonic Mindset.

This incredible Devil didn't die well.. And thats not a bad thing, as what He had done to the Body of Christ, for the last 500 yrs, is OF THE DEVIL, so, its a good thing that Calvin THE devil, had a terrible death.

He is a cancer on the Body of Christ, and His Theology is a spiritual sickness that will train your mind to be a "Calvinist".

God is not a Calvinist.

Jesus is not a Calvinist.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you want to understand what Paul actually explained, then you have to read His Epistles from start to finish, just as you would read any letter or book; because taking quotes from one place in a letter, or another place, out of their context, and then supplying your own opinion as to what you feel he was saying, is not going to give you the message that Paul explained, but what you want to believe Paul was explaining.

For you to say that you do not see a problem with God being 100% responsible for all the sins mankind has committed throughout human history show me that your own doctrine is so important to you, that you gladly will label God as the only vial sinner, and that He creates and uses his creation as victims of all the evil he creates. Sorry, that is not the God of the Bible.

It doesn't follow from the fact that God is 100% responsible for all the sins of mankind, that God is a sinner, or that he is evil. Ever read the book of Job? Did God take responsibility for Satan's injury of Job? Did God take responsibility for Satan killing Job's family? Yes.

Consider Joseph's experience with his brothers. Joseph told his brothers, "What you meant for evil, God meant for good." Here we see two intentions associated with one act: a divine intention and a human intention.

Consider John's gospel, where he says that nothing that has come into being has come into being apart from God. If sin came into being then it came into being because God created it.

Take another look at Romans 9, where Paul argues that God is not unjust for predestining men's choices. What is Paul's argument?

 

[APAK]

We come to Jesus like this..

"whosoever believeth in HIM".. John 3:16

Jesus said.>"All that Believe in Me, i give unto you, eternal life and you shall never go to Hell (perish).."""

How do we GO to Him that God accepts?
What is the CAUSE?

1.) Jesus Said..... "If I be LIFTED UP (on the Cross) I will draw ALL people to me"..

A.) See that "Draw".... "All"..

Who does that?

AA.) The Holy Spirit

How?

AAA.) Faith comes........>BY HEARING"...


AAAA.) Hearing what? = The Holy Spirit who opens your heart and mind when you are realizing JESUS.

See that "realizing"?

That is the "call of God" .. that is the "conviction of the Holy Spirit" = WHO is "DRAWING ALL people to Christ"... all the time.

However...NOT ALL will come... = Freewill


And...When does this happen?

ALL THE TIME, as Jesus said........"I will DRAW ALL"...........

And that Drawing is to "hear it"..........inside your mind........ that opens your heart to receive Christ.

When does this happen, most of the time?

A.) """""How can they BELIEVE unless they Hear... and How can they HEAR unless the Gospel is preached, is taught, is given"...""""""

"Faith comes BY.. HEARING"... The Gospel.......in some way.

Might be a Jesus Movie.
Might be during an LSD Trip... (Ask Phil Keaggy about it).

Might be during an "alter Call" = Sunday Morning Church Service.

Maybe you are in a prison cell, and your mother gave you a BIBLE for Christmas and told you....."Read John 3:16... its for you"..

It could happen on one of my Posts I wrote today, as i gave unbelievers a chance to BELIEVE In Jesus on 2 or 3 so far today.


So, How does Calvin spit on all that?

Oh, He's a clever Devil.

See, He leaves in Jesus, and Faith, and the Cross, but he butchers God's Salvation, into CALVINISM.

He "LIMITS the Cross" by saying its not offered for/to EVERYONE,...... which denies John 3:16.. and 2 Corinthians 5:9 and John 3:17

He refuses "free will"

He teaches that you can't hear the Gospel and believe it because you are "total depravity" so God has to make you believe it.

And on and on This Devil just keeps confusing the word of God so that He traps them into HIS Demonic Mindset.

This incredible Devil didn't die well.. And thats not a bad thing, as what He had done to the Body of Christ, for the last 500 yrs, is OF THE DEVIL, so, its a good thing that Calvin THE devil, had a terrible death.

He is a cancer on the Body of Christ, and His Theology is a spiritual sickness that will train your mind to be a "Calvinist".

God is not a Calvinist.

Jesus is not a Calvinist.

Well don't jump the gun Behold....I do appreciate your zeal for the subject however..

Here's why I asked the question of someone I thought might not be thinking of the same thing as me.

Here's an article that touches on it for you to read...I can go further into depth although this might give you some of the answers I was thinking of....https://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/coming-christ-what-does-mean
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Coming to Christ' - What Does this Mean?​

The expression 'come to Christ' is a good one, but it is surrounded by much ignorance and confusion when it is made part of wrong methods of evangelism. What does this expression mean to its hearers? Surely it is necessary for sinners to 'come to Christ' in order to be saved. But when a preacher calls sinners to the front of a church, while the congregation sets the mood by means of an 'invitational hymn', it is likely that most hearers will equate coming to Christ with 'coming forward' or 'walking the aisle'.

If questioned about the matter, the preacher might say 'walking an aisle' does not save. Yet, at the same time, by his very language and methods, he is equating 'coming forward' with 'coming to Christ', and thus, many poor souls are deceived.

'Coming to Christ' is a good biblical expression. It is used to express the act of the soul. 'Coming to Christ' includes leaving all self-righteousness and sin, and receiving his righteousness as our righteousness; his blood as our covering and our atonement. 'Coming to Christ' embraces repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 'Coming to Christ' is the first effect of regeneration.

When the preacher says, 'Come to Christ' at the end of the service, to many it means coming to the front of the church or 'going forward'. What do our children think it means when the preacher says, 'Come to Christ', and at the same time he invites them to the front of the church? All true preachers and evangelists know that 'coming forward' in a church is not the same as 'coming to Christ'. They may even say 'walking an aisle will not save you' but they proceed with the invitation system as though they think it is 'coming to Christ'.

Many preachers are not judicious in their so-called invitation, and as a result many of our people, possibly most of our people, equate the physical act of coming forward with 'coming to Christ'. Not only is the practice not in the Bible, it was never practiced by our Lord or the apostles. In fact, it was never practised in the Christian church until about one hundred and thirty or one hundred and fifty years ago. Charles G. Finney introduced the inquiry room and the anxious seat. But even Finney did not equate coming to the inquiry room with 'coming to Christ'.

Why am I so concerned about this subject? Because many people are deceived, and to be deceived about their own salvation is the worst deception that can come upon any human being.

Two Scriptures most often used to support the invitation system are Mark 1:17 and Matthew 10:32, 33. 'Follow me and I will make you fishers of men' (Mark 1:17). The disciples left their nets and followed Jesus. He was there physically and they followed him physically. But men cannot follow Christ physically today.

What is it now to follow Jesus? Following Jesus is learning his teachings; living under the influence of those teachings and applying his teachings to our everyday practice.

In the days of his flesh, a physical response was literally possible. The fishermen literally followed him. Zacchaeus physically came down from the tree and followed him. But even in the days of his visible presence, repentance and faith were what Christ intended primarily by the words, 'Follow me', 'Come unto me'. Therefore Mark 1:17 is not a valid text to support any physical act or invitation system.

A second Scripture sometimes used to support this system is this:

Therefore whoever confesses me before men, him I will also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:32, 33

Let us take a careful look at what our Lord is saying. Is he teaching that by the act of confession, or by some physical act, we become Christians? Or that the mark of those who are Christians is that they will confess and live a life in which they openly acknowledge him? To confess Christ is a duty of those who are already Christians. Confessing him is not the way in which we become Christians. It is the way in which we testify verbally to what God has first done in us.
--------------------------------------

And Calvinism has zip to do with this subject as I would like you not to confuse this subject with it if you do not mind


Blessings to you on your duty and quest ...

 

[marks]

The truth of it marks is that you must admit sometimes you come across to me as with some others, as a very sensitive natured person as if someone has just picked on you for some unjust reason.

Don't put this on me.

The readers can make up their own minds. That's the nice thing about this format, the words all remain.

Much love!