The Case for the Sinless Ever-Virgin Mary.

[Jack]

I have Scripture you reject,

Not from the Christian Bible!

 

[Jack]

Again, no one is dead in the eternal, whether they are in Heaven or Hell, because the soul is immortal.

I'll believe Jesus.

Luke 7:22
22 Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised,

 

[RedFan]

Don't we need to define "Scripture" first before this debate can go anywhere? @Soulx3 needs to explain why he gives a twentieth century writing that stature.

 

[Jack]

Well, no one is dead in the eternal, whether they are in Heaven or Hell, because the soul is immortal. So, again, do you not ask others, whether those alive on earth or in Heaven, to join you in prayer to God for yourself or another?

Where do you find any of God's people praying to the dead in the Christian Bible?

 

[Pearl]

Don't we need to define "Scripture" first before this debate can go anywhere?

Well all the Christians I know would define only the Bible as scripture. But obviously on this forum there are people who define almost any written word as scripture if it suits their purposes.

 

[Pearl]

Just a thought - if nobody is dead why do we have all those grave yards? And even those who are alive can be dead in their sin. Funny sort of teaching to say that nobody is dead.

 

[Jack]

Well all the Christians I know would define only the Bible as scripture. But obviously on this forum there are people who define almost any written word as scripture if it suits their purposes.

You noticed that too? lol

 

[marks]

So, when you ask others to join you in prayer to God for yourself, or another, you're praying to them as if they were God?

That's not the same thing, I'm surprised you would make this equivalency. The praying to Mary thing is when you think you are speaking to someone who has passed into the next realm, praying to dead people, or rather alive in heaven but still, God said necromancy is forbidden. You are to pray to God. That's all that is ever taught in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[RedFan]

That's not the same thing, I'm surprised you would make this equivalency. The praying to Mary thing is when you think you are speaking to someone who has passed into the next realm, praying to dead people, or rather alive in heaven but still, God said necromancy is forbidden. You are to pray to God. That's all that is ever taught in the Bible.

Much love!

I'm not aware of a single Biblical reference to anyone praying to a dead person. I'm aware of Jesus praying to God on the cross and being misunderstood as praying to Elijah. That drew a reaction from some bystanders to get him a drink! I don't know how to interpret the incident. Maybe prayer directly to Elijah to return wasn't all that uncommon in first-century Judaism. I'm skeptical. (The Bible doesn't say it was common -- but the Bible doesn't say a great many things that are nonetheless true about first-century practices, so I infer nothing from this silence.)

 

[Jack]

That's not the same thing, I'm surprised you would make this equivalency. The praying to Mary thing is when you think you are speaking to someone who has passed into the next realm, praying to dead people, or rather alive in heaven but still, God said necromancy is forbidden. You are to pray to God. That's all that is ever taught in the Bible.

Much love!

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (ESV)
10 A charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD.

 

[Athanasius377]

I see nothing in this passage suggesting that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life. Do you?

The assertion is earlier in the work:

4. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by, saying: Anna, Anna, the Lord hath heard thy prayer, and thou shalt conceive, and shall bring forth; and thy seed shall be spoken of in all the world. And Anna said: As the Lord my God liveth, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God; and it shall minister to Him in holy things all the days of its life.

Roberts, Alexander, et al., editors. “The Protevangelium of James.” Fathers of the Third and Fourth Centuries: The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, the Clementina, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First Ages, translated by Alexander Walker, vol. 8, Christian Literature Company, 1886, p. 362.

You can read the entire document here.

There is all kinds of weirdness such as Mary was raised in the Holy of Holies and was feed by an angel. The document is the work of a gnostic sect that views normal marital activity as something defiling. Which I would add, is not the scriptural view. Which is why it was rejected by either Pope Damasus I in the late fourth century, (Who, as fate would have it, presided over the council of Rome that helped determine the canon of Scripture. Not sure what the Papalists have to say about that little nugget.), or Pope Gelasius in the late fifth century. It depends on your view of the Gelasian Decree.

 

[Soulx3]

Just a thought - if nobody is dead why do we have all those grave yards? And even those who are alive can be dead in their sin. Funny sort of teaching to say that nobody is dead.

We have graveyards because people bury physical bodies or ashes of a person no longer physically alive, but they're still alive in spirit, because their soul is immortal. However, the day will come when the body and soul reunite, and people will not only be alive in spirit, but in the body again as well.

Where do you find any of God's people praying to the dead in the Christian Bible?

First, what do you mean by "praying to the dead" because (i) when someone physically dies, they're still alive in spirit, whether they are in Purgatory, Heaven, or Hell, because their soul is immortal. However, the day will come when the body and soul reunite, and people will not only be alive in spirit, but in the body again as well. Second, Catholics don't pray to the dead, but rather to God for the dead, and when we do that we're referring to the souls in Purgatory: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Macc. 12:46)

I'm not aware of a single Biblical reference to anyone praying to a dead person.

First, what do you mean by "praying to a dead person," because (i) when someone physically dies, they're still alive in spirit, whether they are in Purgatory, Heaven, or Hell, because their soul is immortal. However, the day will come when bodies and souls will reunite, and these people will not only be alive in spirit, but in body again as well. Second, Catholics don't pray to the dead, but rather to God for the dead, and when we do that we're referring to the souls in Purgatory: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Macc. 12:46)

The praying to Mary thing is when you think you are speaking to someone who has passed into the next realm, praying to dead people, or rather alive in heaven but still, God said necromancy is forbidden. You are to pray to God. That's all that is ever taught in the Bible.

Catholics do pray to God, as well as ask others who are alive on earth and in Heaven to join us in our prayer to God, etc., which is not necromancy. Necromancy is the practice of magic involving communication with the dead by summoning their spirits as apparitions or visions for the purpose of divination; imparting the means to foretell future events and discover hidden knowledge.

 

[marks]

and in Heaven

This is the part the Bible doesn't teach. And the reasons for trying to communicate with the dead, yours is included also. Trying to speak to spirits who have passed from this realm to receive favor from God as they entreat Him on your behalf.

Jesus explicitly taught praying to the Father. James specifically taught that we pray for each other. But no one taught praying to the dead.

It's completely unbiblical.

Much love!

 

[Soulx3]

And no one can deny that there is existing FALSE information about people/places/events that is lacking in the writings that make up the Bible. You really need to get off this "The Bible doesn't say No, therefore YES" kick. You've got some good points to make, and this type of silliness only detracts from your credibility.

Firstly, I already said that there is existing false and true information about people/places/events that are lacking in the writings that make up the Bible. I made a point to remind that there's true information about people/places/events that are lacking in the writings that make up the Bible in response to protestants who argue, "If x, y, z is not mentioned, or not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, then it's automatically false," because that is false. Does that mean if x y, z is not mentioned at all, or not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, then it's automatically true? No, but again, it doesn't automatically mean it isn't either, and it isn't impossible to know whether x, y, z is true or false. Do you agree with all that?

Secondly, I've never argued that Mary being without sin is not in the scriptural writings that make up the Bible, and thus proves my position, but rather argued that it is in the Bible, just not in a way others accept, at least right now. I've also argued that Mary being without sin is explicitly mentioned in scriptural writings that make up The Poem of the Man-God, currently not accepted by some. Therefore, you're misrepresenting me when you say I'm on a "The Bible doesn't say NO, therefore YES kick," so will you say that detracts from any credibility you may have?

Thirdly, what credibility do I have, or can I have, among Protestants when merely for being Catholic most Protestants here, if not all, say that anything I believe that they don't is automatically false?

Luke equates salvation with forgiveness of sin in Luke 1:77. Yet Luke 1:47 quotes Mary as referring to “God my Savior.” Why would she need a Savior if she was sinless?

God is Mary's Savior because He preserved Her soul from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus She was born with an immaculate soul, capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, and coupled with Her natural good will She never sinned.

God could choose a sinner as His vessel to accomplish the Incarnation if He so desired.

No evil (sin) can dwell with God (Ps. 5:4), so how could God, the Most Holy and Pure One, dwell and take form in a human being stained with sin?

The RCC's view is that Mary was born without original sin, so I'll confine myself to that one. Once we insist that a child can be born sinless only if the mother is born sinless, we start down a rabbit hole that we cannot escape (was Mary's mother sinless? was her grandmother sinless? and so on . . .)

I've never argued that Mary being without sin is the result of being conceived by parents who were without sin. Do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of Adam and thus inherit the stain of original sin, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just (not sinless) human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

Ok, the words ‘ could have ‘ are relevant because it means that it is speculation. I have an issue when something is speculation and it becomes a fact that is then proclaimed as relevant and solid and must be adhered to and worshiped.

Do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of Adam and thus inherit the stain of original sin, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

But didn't Mary, who you regard as sinless, reside in someone stained with original sin? It just doesn't make sense.

If you believe it doesn't make sense for Mary to have been conceived by parents stained with original sin and be without sin Herself, how does it makes sense for God Incarnate, the Most Holy and Perfect One, to dwell and take form in a human being stained with original sin?

Also, do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of Adam and thus inherit the stain of original sin, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

There is no where in this scripture that says Mary was without sin.

Now follow your own standard and provide the scriptural verse from the Bible that explicitly states Mary was with sin.

Mary was created by a sinning father and mother just like you and I.

Now follow your own standard and provide the scriptural verse from the Bible that proves your statement: " Mary was created by a sinning father and mother just like you and I."

God could have created Mary apart from Adam, but He didn't.

Now follow your own standard and provide the scriptural verse from the Bible that proves your statement: "God could have created Mary apart from Adam, but He didn't."

 

[Soulx3]

But no one taught praying to the dead.

Catholics don't pray to the dead, but rather to God for the dead, and when we do that we're referring to the souls in Purgatory: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Macc. 12:46)

 

[marks]

Now follow your own standard and provide the scriptural verse from the Bible that proves your statement: "God could have created Mary apart from Adam, but He didn't."

Do you then actually think that Mary was a "second Adam", that is, a new human not from Adam's line?

God performed 1 single creative act in making Man.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This wasn't simply God creating a single man, when God created Adam He created all humanity. From Adam, Eve was taken, but not as a new creative act as when God created Adam.

Children when they are conceived are not each new creations like Adam was, but are the unfolding of Humanity, created by God in that day, now unfolding through the centuries as each generation comes from the last.

We see this here,

Hebrews 7:8-10
(8) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
(10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec, being in the loins of his father.

Were Mary a separate creation from Adam, she would be a new, a second humanity, not of Adam's line. However,

1 Corinthians 15:45-47
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

"The second man", the "last Adam", isn't Mary, it's the Lord from Heaven. Jesus.

So no, God did not create Mary apart from Adam. Thank you for asking!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Catholics don't pray to the dead,

You don't pray to Mary? I thought that's what we were talking about. I know, alive in heaven, but dead here.

Now regarding praying for the dead, that's something else not taught in the Bible, but I don't mind what you do, that seems pretty harmless to me. Though the Bible tells us what happens after death that doesn't include purgatory. What exactly is the purpose of purgatory?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Now follow your own standard and provide the scriptural verse from the Bible that explicitly states Mary was with sin.

Follow your standard and show explicit Scripture that Mary never sinned.

Much love!

 

[Soulx3]

Do you then actually think that Mary was a "second Adam", that is, a new human not from Adam's line?

God performed 1 single creative act in making Man.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This wasn't simply God creating a single man, when God created Adam He created all humanity. From Adam, Eve was taken, but not as a new creative act as when God created Adam.

Children when they are conceived are not each new creations like Adam was, but are the unfolding of Humanity, created by God in that day, now unfolding through the centuries as each generation comes from the last.

We see this here,

Hebrews 7:8-10
(8) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
(10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec, being in the loins of his father.

Were Mary a separate creation from Adam, she would be a new, a second humanity, not of Adam's line. However,

1 Corinthians 15:45-47
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

"The second man", the "last Adam", isn't Mary, it's the Lord from Heaven. Jesus.

So no, God did not create Mary apart from Adam. Thank you for asking!

Much love!

Actually, I've said that Jesus is the new Adam, and Mary the new Eve. Now, do you believe or not believe that God, in advance, could have or could have not Thought of creating the soul that was to be the soul of the Mother of God Incarnate, and because He knew Her soul would've been subject to the law of Adam and thus inherit the stain of original sin, He preserved it from inheriting the stain of original sin, and thus it became an immaculate soul capable of possessing the fullness of His Grace, then He infused it into the embryo at the moment of Her conception? Do you believe or not believe that these factors, coupled with being conceived by and born of two Just human parents and having a natural good will, could have or could not have resulted in Mary being without sin, and thus a worthy dwelling place for God Incarnate, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior, the most Holy and Perfect One, to be conceived and take form in, and live a divinely Holy life with in Spirit and Body on earth and in Heaven?

Follow your standard and show explicit Scripture that Mary never sinned.

I happily can and would like to from the scriptural writings that make up The Poem of the Man-God. I know that's not The Bible, but I don't limit the knowledge of God to one book, a book made up of multiple books itself. Unless you're of the same mind about that, and are willing to at least read what I have to share without any prejudgment, would you say it'd be a waste of my time to quote from it?

Now regarding praying for the dead, that's something else not taught in the Bible...

Praying for the dead is taught in the Bible: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (2 Macc. 12:46). Unfortunately, there are Protestants who choose to have a version of the Bible that doesn't include the book of Maccabees, a book which was ejected from Scripture. Anyway, that verse is referring to souls in the place most commonly known as "Purgatory."

What exactly is the purpose of purgatory?

According to Jesus, through spokesmen of His, such as Maria Valtorta and Maria Simma, He explains that Purgatory is a place where just souls who [physically] die but still require purification go before they can enter Heaven, and the prayers of souls on earth for them help their purification process, and thus shorten their stay there. Maria Simma described this temporary dwelling thus:

"Suppose that one day a door opens, and a splendid being appears, extremely beautiful, of a beauty that has never been seen on earth. You are fascinated, overwhelmed by this being of light and beauty, even more so that this being shows that he is madly in love with you -- you have never dreamed of being loved so much. You sense too that he has a great desire to draw you to him, to be one with you. And the fire of love which burns in your heart impels you to throw yourself into his arms. But wait -- you realize at this moment that you haven't washed for months and months, that you smell bad; you nose is running, your hair is greasy and matted, there are big dirty stains on your clothes, etc. So you say to yourself, "No, I just can't present myself in this state. First I must go and wash: a good shower, then straight away I'll come back.

But the love which has been born in your heart is so intense, so burning, so strong, that this delay for the shower is absolutely unbearable. And the pain of the absence, even if it only lasts for a couple of minutes, is an atrocious wound in the heart, proportional to the intensity of the revelation of the love -- it is a "love-wound".

Purgatory is exactly this. It's a delay imposed by our impurity, a delay before God's embrace, a wound of love which causes intense suffering, a waiting, if you like, a nostalgia for love. It is precisely this burning, this longing which cleanses us of whatever is still impure in us. Purgatory is a place of desire, a made desire for God, desire for this God whom we already know, for we have seen him, but with whom we are not yet united."

 

[marks]

I happily can and would like to from the scriptural writings that make up The Poem of the Man-God. I know that's not The Bible, but I don't limit the knowledge of God to one book, a book made up of multiple books itself. Unless you're of the same mind about that, and are willing to at least read what I have to share without any prejudgment, would you say it'd be a waste of my time to quote from it?

I don't count that to be from God, it's from man, and I don't accept man's writings to contradict and overturn Scripture, being from God. Waste of time to quote it to me? Yes. The Bible already sets this forth. So it already refutes your poem, and therefore, your poem is not in fact Scripture.

Much love!